Dinosaurs On Noahs Arc...

[BrassFusion]

I hope I get a million dollars. The chances of this though, are not very good.

Totally. Is this one of those things like, if you BELIEVE in Santa, he's real?

[Scary Guy]

Totally. Is this one of those things like, if you BELIEVE in Santa, he's real?

I believe he once actually existed. Jesus existed too but was he god is another question entirely.

On a side note "I'm my own father" really sounds like some form of supernatural incest to me.

[pharoh]

Anyone can sit and point fingers at the "Flaws" in's ones beliefs/religion. Bottom line is it comes down to faith. The problem with every "Religion" is the aspect of man. If you have faith in something and your convictions are right, then nobody can ever take that away from you. I am not saying that anyone here is before the flaming begins. Even though everyone has brought great thoughts into this topic, no one is going to pursade the other....

[Steven]

Totally. Is this one of those things like, if you BELIEVE in Santa, he's real?

you guys always have to go to this level.....

[Steven]

I hope I get a million dollars. The chances of this though, are not very good.

wrong example.

unless of course, your on a life pattern that should lead in the direciton of a cool million.

faith is proactive. its useless to have faith without forward motion. So to argue one without the other is a misdirected argument. For example I have complete faith in my marriage.

I also work very hard at it. Action and faith feed each other.

[Steven]

I believe he once actually existed. Jesus existed too but was he god is another question entirely.

On a side note "I'm my own father" really sounds like some form of supernatural incest to me.

loose explanation:

I represent my company as the authority figure out in the feild and with customers.

However I yeild to the final authority, the owner of the company.

Christ - if you beleiv ethis sort of thing and i do - emptied himself of his rightful divinity in fullness, to become a man. He left a part of himself behind, and therefore submitted himself to the governign heavenly body of which he was/is an active part of. On earth - he had limitations to his reach, yet fully expected to return to his former and full state of being.

A triune Godhead is a difficult concept to grasp at.

some people use ideas such as water, steam, and ice - seperate and yet of one source.

I like to think of it in terms of say, electricity.....277 Volts, 208 Volts, 120 volts, all often found in the same building, yet with different levels of power and punch, and when placed on a scope, all three have distinct and different wavelengths or identities to suit specific purposes.

Yet they all come form the same sole source of power on your overhead electrical lines until they are split off, and they all return to source when their task is completed.

Seperate - yet the same - from one sole source. All three voltages - are the same thing, electrons for a specific purpose.

Father, Son, Holy Spirt - all the same yet different, all from the same source, with different identities and purposes, yet all of them God. One God.

[Scary Guy]

wrong example.

unless of course, your on a life pattern that should lead in the direciton of a cool million.

faith is proactive. its useless to have faith without forward motion. So to argue one without the other is a misdirected argument. For example I have complete faith in my marriage.

I also work very hard at it. Action and faith feed each other.

I'm working toward it, not very hard mind you but the odds are stacked against it. Still it is possible for me to earn that million.

Your marriage you work at, and there is a visible reward for your effort put into it.

Putting faith and effort into your religion however as far as I can see only helps the church community. There is no visible set reward in the end for your efforts.

If you have faith in something and your convictions are right, then nobody can ever take that away from you.

There's that pesky "if" again. You don't know they're right, you just think they are.

Religion isn't based in fact (though we think parts of it are and they may very well be) but in the opinion that the majority of its followers believe it to be fact. Again that's why it's called faith and that's why everyone is actually agnostic. Because no one actually knows for sure.

[pharoh]

Religion isn't based in fact (though we think parts of it are and they may very well be) but in the opinion that the majority of its followers believe it to be fact. Again that's why it's called faith and that's why everyone is actually agnostic. Because no one actually knows for sure.

I disagree with the everyone is agnostic part and honestly with just talking some with you in the past I am kinda surprised you said that (thats not a cheap shot just a statement).

If you as an individual have do not have faith in being a follower of religion your almost always (almost being the key word there) then everything that you disagree with your going to pick apart and over analyze anything to do with the religion because you don't agree with it. And certain things are just not meant to picked apart. And I think honestly thats the hardest part for anyone to deal with.

Let me ask you this: If you were given your proof that you wanted and were shown that it was not all a scam, would you be swayed to change your faith? Just a thought...

[Steven]

Putting faith and effort into your religion however as far as I can see only helps the church community. There is no visible set reward in the end for your efforts.

Religion isn't based in fact (though we think parts of it are and they may very well be) but in the opinion that the majority of its followers believe it to be fact. Again that's why it's called faith and that's why everyone is actually agnostic. Because no one actually knows for sure.

I dont put anythign into religion Scary - thats the point you keep missing, I draw from my faith, and invest myself into the people who surround me, the majority of whom, are not even fellow Christian beleivers.

My friends who love me love me for who and what I am.

Which definately includes real life interaction, in both good times and bad.

But who and what I am, is a Christian man. The core of what my friends dig about me, whether they agree with my beleifs or not, comes from my beleifs. You cant really seperate the two. So wehat Im saying is that my faith leads directly into my relationships, which in turn effects the community, and if some way somehow I've been fortunate enough to make some sort of lasting impression on someone's life, then there is the chance of a ripple effect. And yes I am involved with my local body of beleivers as well and we support one another, but we also support the immediate community as well. For example Tri City personally supplies food reserves to thousands of people in the local area who are struggling, we keep it in a warehouse and its volunteer run. The church pays for that. We do not offer that service to people on the basis that they must first become christians or join our church, we offer it to those in need, period. The church body, if its in order and in alignment with the word fo God, in effect really is there to serve the community and God, that is the benefit we give to one another, if you can get behind that sort of perspective.

[Scary Guy]

I disagree with the everyone is agnostic part and honestly with just talking some with you in the past I am kinda surprised you said that (thats not a cheap shot just a statement).

If you as an individual have do not have faith in being a follower of religion your almost always (almost being the key word there) then everything that you disagree with your going to pick apart and over analyze anything to do with the religion because you don't agree with it. And certain things are just not meant to picked apart. And I think honestly thats the hardest part for anyone to deal with.

Let me ask you this: If you were given your proof that you wanted and were shown that it was not all a scam, would you be swayed to change your faith? Just a thought...

On the contrary, I think that everything should be questioned period. I have a thirst for knowledge and want to know how everything works to pick it apart and see what makes it tick. If I discovered absolute proof that Christianity was the one true way I'd totally sign up, same thing with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions (or any non documented because what if we don't know the one true religion). I certainly don't want to be smitten for believing in the wrong god. But give me the proof I require first, which no mortal man can give the proof (though I think the second coming might work if NeoJesus had superhuman powers etc..)

I dont put anythign into religion Scary - thats the point you keep missing, I draw from my faith, and invest myself into the people who surround me, the majority of whom, are not even fellow Christian beleivers.

My friends who love me love me for who and what I am.

Which definately includes real life interaction, in both good times and bad.

But who and what I am, is a Christian man. The core of what my friends dig about me, whether they agree with my beleifs or not, comes from my beleifs. You cant really seperate the two. So wehat Im saying is that my faith leads directly into my relationships, which in turn effects the community, and if some way somehow I've been fortunate enough to make some sort of lasting impression on someone's life, then there is the chance of a ripple effect. And yes I am involved with my local body of beleivers as well and we support one another, but we also support the immediate community as well. For example Tri City personally supplies food reserves to thousands of people in the local area who are struggling, we keep it in a warehouse and its volunteer run. The church pays for that. We do not offer that service to people on the basis that they must first become christians or join our church, we offer it to those in need, period. The church body, if its in order and in alignment with the word fo God, in effect really is there to serve the community and God, that is the benefit we give to one another, if you can get behind that sort of perspective.

That's not what I meant by helps the church community but ok. Still no visible reward at the end of your life.

Also the fact that you're drawing in it means you're putting something into it (if only a vested interest).

[Steven]

On the contrary, I think that everything should be questioned period. I have a thirst for knowledge and want to know how everything works to pick it apart and see what makes it tick. If I discovered absolute proof that Christianity was the one true way I'd totally sign up, same thing with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions (or any non documented because what if we don't know the one true religion). I certainly don't want to be smitten for believing in the wrong god. But give me the proof I require first, which no mortal man can give the proof (though I think the second coming might work if NeoJesus had superhuman powers etc..)

That's not what I meant by helps the church community but ok. Still no visible reward at the end of your life.

Also the fact that you're drawing in it means you're putting something into it (if only a vested interest).

dangit.

everytime I try to post a reply I get some sort of snafu that sends it to cyberlimbo.

so I'll try this again then.....

based on what I think is your argument logic, you cannot commit to anythign that cannot be proven, you see no value in it. ok. but here's a question then.....

Let's say that because of my Christian way of life the following has taken place:

1) Stronger relationships in general.

2) Improved coping skills.

3) freedom from various forms of chemical dependency

4) bridge gapping - the ability to build relationships with others outside of my normal sphere of influence

5) a solid marriage that continues to thrive

6) a deeper understanding and commitment to community

7) some good old fashioned wisdom and gumption

8) healing from past emotional scars

9) a pro active montor and mentoree lifestyle

10) improved communication skills and leadership skills

11) the ability to teach and lead small groups in topical discussion and research

12) community outreach for basic needs, not just within the church membership

13) third world country outreach

14) a life of purpose and direction

OK, so let's say that these have taken place in my life, as a bi-product of what I BELIEVE is reality.

Then I get hit by a Bus and I catch a case of the rigormortis.

DGN is no longer the same.

Brass Fusion hurls herself upon my coffin and cannot be consoled.

And lets say I'm dead, and it turns out I was straight up wrong. Theres no God, no Jesus, no nada, no truth, just fate. Your born, you eat, poop, die. thats it.

...........what is it that is wrong with the life I just led?

...........what exactly have I missed out on?

...........how has my life been wasted?

...........what harm came to me?

...........and to others that interacted with me?

...........have I now become...invalidated?

[Scary Guy]

K lets pick these apart one by one

1) Stronger relationships in general.

2) Improved coping skills.

3) freedom from various forms of chemical dependency

4) bridge gapping - the ability to build relationships with others outside of my normal sphere of influence

5) a solid marriage that continues to thrive

6) a deeper understanding and commitment to community

7) some good old fashioned wisdom and gumption

8) healing from past emotional scars

9) a pro active montor and mentoree lifestyle

10) improved communication skills and leadership skills

11) the ability to teach and lead small groups in topical discussion and research

12) community outreach for basic needs, not just within the church membership

13) third world country outreach

14) a life of purpose and direction

I can do them all in one shot. All these could be the same with any religion (except maybe nihilism) and you would get the same benefits out of it.

...........what is it that is wrong with the life I just led?

You were wrong in your choice of religion, so it was all for nothing.

...........what exactly have I missed out on?

The truth (with your no after life scenario) that there is no afterlife.

...........how has my life been wasted?

Worshiping that which does not exist.

...........what harm came to me?

These days none, but it wasn't so long ago that you could die for believing in the wrong god(s) or deity(ies) (although I guess some Iranians could still bomb you for allah).

...........and to others that interacted with me?

Possible brainwashing and contamination

...........have I now become...invalidated?

Only when everyone who remembers you dies too.

This is of course assuming you're wrong.

[BrassFusion]

I think that's a little extreme, SG. I personally believe that the real damage from faith comes from faith in massive numbers. Like, you may be more level-headed and objective than most Christians, Steven, but no lies- you're a member of a voter base that mobilized all Christians, smart and stupid, under a banner of war. They try to make the contingents think that war is the Christian thing to do, along with gun ownership, oppressing poor people, exterminating "criminals," etc. That's when it gets dangerous... when a man says he's a Republican because he's Christian (not to say that's you, steve-o, but I've heard that as an explanation).

[Steven]

K lets pick these apart one by one

1) Stronger relationships in general.

2) Improved coping skills.

3) freedom from various forms of chemical dependency

4) bridge gapping - the ability to build relationships with others outside of my normal sphere of influence

5) a solid marriage that continues to thrive

6) a deeper understanding and commitment to community

7) some good old fashioned wisdom and gumption

8) healing from past emotional scars

9) a pro active montor and mentoree lifestyle

10) improved communication skills and leadership skills

11) the ability to teach and lead small groups in topical discussion and research

12) community outreach for basic needs, not just within the church membership

13) third world country outreach

14) a life of purpose and direction

I can do them all in one shot. All these could be the same with any religion (except maybe nihilism) and you would get the same benefits out of it.

...........what is it that is wrong with the life I just led?

You were wrong in your choice of religion, so it was all for nothing.

...........what exactly have I missed out on?

The truth (with your no after life scenario) that there is no afterlife.

...........how has my life been wasted?

Worshiping that which does not exist.

...........what harm came to me?

These days none, but it wasn't so long ago that you could die for believing in the wrong god(s) or deity(ies) (although I guess some Iranians could still bomb you for allah).

...........and to others that interacted with me?

Possible brainwashing and contamination

...........have I now become...invalidated?

Only when everyone who remembers you dies too.

This is of course assuming you're wrong.

interesting answer (and I had to resist the urge to quote Napolean Dynamite "I can make that much money in 5 seconds"....oopsa I just did anyway)

all I can give you in response scary is to compare the differences between our motivation.

And please notice that i have not argued against any other religion in this thread - Im simply saying that in this Chrsitianity thing this is where I can be found...

Anyway, to me there seems to be a pretty big division over "We" versus "Me" concept and where our focus lies. thats not a shot at you Scary, I'm simply saying that we have entirely different lifestyles that are reflected in our thinking.

[Steven]

I think that's a little extreme, SG. I personally believe that the real damage from faith comes from faith in massive numbers. Like, you may be more level-headed and objective than most Christians, Steven, but no lies- you're a member of a voter base that mobilized all Christians, smart and stupid, under a banner of war. They try to make the contingents think that war is the Christian thing to do, along with gun ownership, oppressing poor people, exterminating "criminals," etc. That's when it gets dangerous... when a man says he's a Republican because he's Christian (not to say that's you, steve-o, but I've heard that as an explanation).

this was a good answer Erin.

and in many ways I tend to agree with it.

[Der Nister]

as for the "purpose" of the creation myth, it's as antiquated as the texts themselves. man didn't have reliable science so he made up stories to explain what he didn't understand- BOOM. religion.

I agree 100% here.

It has also been discovered recently that the Christian bible is based on ancient writings from other religions from that region. Christianity isn't even original - it's just a rip off of someone else's work *period*.

It may have good advice (which is just common sense) but all religions have the same advice/stories. I refuse to buy into it anymore - there are too many contradictions in the bible for it to be true.

[Steven]

I agree 100% here.

It has also been discovered recently that the Christian bible is based on ancient writings from other religions from that region. Christianity isn't even original - it's just a rip off of someone else's work *period*.

It may have good advice (which is just common sense) but all religions have the same advice/stories. I refuse to buy into it anymore - there are too many contradictions in the bible for it to be true.

actually this isint a recent discovery, I've read about this since I was a kid, and I was born in '66.

But if you'd like to elaborate with detail I'm open to read what you've got to say.

I'll even give you my points of view afterward if you'd like.

I'd also like to know about some of the common sense good advice you speak of.

do me a favor though - please dont send me to a link. Just tell me your thoughts on the matter, give me your personal feedback on the details.

[Sybil]

the tone of your question was sarcasm, legitimate or not, i was offended by the tone and was not sure if you were sincerely asking, "how can i tell if it was all made up?" I've found when i use sarcasm in writing, most of the time, it is misunderstood.

if in fact you were asking, "how can i tell if it was all made up?" Listen to your gut instinct. What's the purpose of the story being told? Are there any underlining meanings? How can i use this example in my life? What's my life experiences taught me and do they match up with the lesson of the story? What does mom say about it? Or my best friend, brother, cousin, dad, clergyman, shaman, the guy on the street corner? Go back to your own gut instinct. Sit on it for a few days. Pull it back out. Has anything hatched? eh. maybe put it in the freezer then. you never know. what dont make sense now, might make sense in a few months.

I don't believe god actually verbally spoke with the writers. This is an instance of getting lost in the details and i just dont care if God spoke in their ears or how exactly god inspired them to write. does it really matter?

I spent 13 years in parochial schools and had religion shoved and spoon fed down my throat. It didn't sit well with me and i've been regurgitating it all back up by purposefully sticking my finger down my red, raw religion-ized throat. I'm now ready to hear about what God was trying to teach me versus what organized religion was trying to brain wash me with. There is a difference and it is in the Bible. You'll just have to decide for yourself. If you want help or questions on specific passages, stories, and meanings., PM me and i'll be glad to share what i think. if i cant explain it well, i might be able to direct you to others who could.

**blinks**

Wow.

I felt that.

This may sound strange to you, but thank you for posting this.

I related to this message.....

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Occasionally when you are in a situation were you have to react very quickly and don't have time to think about things, your "feeling" or "gut instinct" can be useful, not only useful , but its the ONLY thing you can use if you have no specific intellectual understanding of what is going on.

When you have virtually equal "scientific" evidence for 2 different sets of choices/beliefs/actions sometimes you have NO CHOICE but to use your "feeling" to decide one way or another if you must have the answer right then and there.

I think the key disconnect between the "spiritual minded" (of any given supernatural thing) and "the skeptics" (skeptical of any supernatural thing) is what they choose to use as a measure of what is true and what isn't. Typically your average person of faith is perfectly willing to use their emotions/gut feelings to decide what is true and what isn't. Typically your average skeptic is not and will only accept scientific evidence and rejects feelings/emotions as a way to truth.

Then if the discussion between these two very different measurement systems continues, it has to be about why emotional / instinctual evidence is stronger than empirical/intellectual evidence.

[BrassFusion]

Then if the discussion between these two very different measurement systems continues, it has to be about why emotional / instinctual evidence is stronger than empirical/intellectual evidence.

Seconded. I would LOVE to hear anyone's arguments to that end.

[Steven]

Occasionally when you are in a situation were you have to react very quickly and don't have time to think about things, your "feeling" or "gut instinct" can be useful, not only useful , but its the ONLY thing you can use if you have no specific intellectual understanding of what is going on.

When you have virtually equal "scientific" evidence for 2 different sets of choices/beliefs/actions sometimes you have NO CHOICE but to use your "feeling" to decide one way or another if you must have the answer right then and there.

I think the key disconnect between the "spiritual minded" (of any given supernatural thing) and "the skeptics" (skeptical of any supernatural thing) is what they choose to use as a measure of what is true and what isn't. Typically your average person of faith is perfectly willing to use their emotions/gut feelings to decide what is true and what isn't. Typically your average skeptic is not and will only accept scientific evidence and rejects feelings/emotions as a way to truth.

Then if the discussion between these two very different measurement systems continues, it has to be about why emotional / instinctual evidence is stronger than empirical/intellectual evidence.

and yet the problem is, that your intillectuals will inevitably find themselves spouting off their clear logic with an emotional delivery, and your instinctuals will begin to start breaking things down point by point. Nobody sticks to the rules or the caste they belong in. I imagine it has always been this way....

[BrassFusion]

and yet the problem is, that your intillectuals will inevitably find themselves spouting off their clear logic with an emotional delivery, and your instinctuals will begin to start breaking things down point by point. Nobody sticks to the rules or the caste they belong in. I imagine it has always been this way....

You can't rationalize instinctual belief. You could try, though, instead of just *saying* you do... and I doubt my emotional support of empirical science negates the science itself.

[Steven]

You can't rationalize instinctual belief. You could try, though, instead of just *saying* you do... and I doubt my emotional support of empirical science negates the science itself.

and yet to someone such as myself who tends to live and breathe instincutally, its perfectly rational after having worked this lifestyle for as long as I have and being fortunate enough to have yeilded consistently good results.

and the point I made about emotional delivery of hard fact.....I suppose what Im saying Erin is that all hard data is subject to change and new representation as much of what we feel is factual is really just the most mathmatically plausibel explanation within a controlled study environment....until we discover somethign new and change the rules. That too, is science. And yet life is really just not that way, nor are we when you get right down to it. You mix half a cup of strong emotion into it and I start smelling a certain neediness on the part of the scientific disciple.....which is the same thing that disciple charges me with (the crutch theory).

In plain english: it just aint that simple babe.

[know_buddy_kares]

Not to take a shit in anyone's cheerios this morning but... I find such trivial things as dinosaurs on Noah's Ark to be rather silly. They're not around now, so why worry. If dinosaurs were still around, we wouldn't even be arguing this, we'd be too busy running to keep from getting our heads chomped into a gooey treat for whatever carnivorous dinosaur has spotted us...

...and practically... if Noah really did have dinosaurs on his ark... I'm sure he and his livestock would have been eaten... hasn't anyone seen Jurassic Park? DID YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE WHO TRIED TO CONTROL THOSE THINGS?!?!

They were eaten Jim... with BBQ sauce and mashed potatoes. And...

....yeah I need to go to sleep...

[Scary Guy]

and the point I made about emotional delivery of hard fact.....I suppose what Im saying Erin is that all hard data is subject to change and new representation as much of what we feel is factual is really just the most mathmatically plausibel explanation within a controlled study environment....until we discover somethign new and change the rules. That too, is science. And yet life is really just not that way, nor are we when you get right down to it. You mix half a cup of strong emotion into it and I start smelling a certain neediness on the part of the scientific disciple.....which is the same thing that disciple charges me with (the crutch theory).

Yes but there is quite a difference. Our theories are based in science as the most plausible explanation as to why we exist, while yours are based around the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Sorry I just love pointing that out.

Ah time to go pray to Odin.