To Immunize Or Not To Immunize

[Rayne]

I told hubby about this thread, and he said one of the speakers he heard has a son who is autistic, and after working in science his whole life, and experiencing autism first-hand, he's convinced many mathemiticians and scientists are in fact AS. So, I think you're on to something Pomba!!

This is true. I have read many notable people in history would have been diagnosed on the Autism Specturm, had they lived now.

[Rayne]

Looking back, Guy, my husband, says that as a child he would have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD. But those simpy weren't diagnoses that were made back then. Until the age of three or so, he had a vocabularly of maybe twenty words, and enjoyed spending afternoons rocking in the rocking chair, cutting up pieces of paper into bits. All of his clothes needed to be extra-soft or he wouldn't wear them, and in a large crowd of people he would jump around and yip like a little dog because he was terrified.

Here's how the story ended for Guy. He ended up FINE, absolutely FINE. He's finishing his PhD in microbiology and genetics in December, has job offers falling from the sky. And by the way, it was easy for him. Ridiculously easy, I think that's one of the other effects of the Asperger's, he has a focus that most people never have, and he only needs to read something once for it to stick in his head forever. He has ME for a wife (we should ALL be so lucky!) and socially, he is considered by friends, family and strangers, to be compassionate, fun, witty and just all-around good company.

He still rocks incessantly (he's rocked three chairs to death since I've known him), loves his rock collection (all smooth polished spheres of the same size, that's important, and he keeps several in his pockets) and still doesn't like being in big crowds of strangers. But, really, that's it. He otherwise leads a very normal, happy and successful life.

Oprah likes to tell horrible stories. I like to tell nice ones. I know that you already know that the prospects for your son are very good, I just wanted to give you a little more reason to believe that.

Thank you Sass. We've learned to adapt to Austin's quirks and look at his AS as more of a personality trait. I'm blessed to be his mother, he's an awesome kid.

With Austin being high functioning Asperger's Syndrome, I know he has a good chance of growing up to be unique, but in a normal way (if that makes any sense). I'll be happy as long as he is.

[pomba gira]

This is true. I have read many notable people in history would have been diagnosed on the Autism Specturm, had they lived now.

I have a list somewhere... kept it posted on my Resource Room door... famous historical figures who would likely have been diagnosed as Autism Spectrum or Learning Disabled nowadays. I'll try to dig it up if anyone's interested.

[Marblez]

Honestly, the fact that everyone is focusing solely on autism tells me that people aren't watching the video. Granted, it is 90 minutes and I don't expect everyone to watch it. There is a mention of autism but the entire video is about immunizations, the harm that they cause and the lack of proof that they actually even work. I don't discredit the commentary thus far, but would very much like to hear the response of anyone that actually does.

Here are some various other points found on the same site.

A 1992 study published in The American Journal of Epidemiology shows that children die at a rate 8 times greater than normal within three days after getting a DPT vaccination.

A preliminary study by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) found children who received the HiB vaccine ... were found to be 5 times more likely to contract the disease than children who had not received the vaccine.

In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

In 1977 Dr Jonas Salk (inventor of the Salk polio vaccine) testified with other scientists that 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the us today.

The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

And my largest concern is the possibility of MS. My children already have a hereditary double whammy when it comes to this disease since my mother and her sister died of MS and my mother in law has been diagnosed with it.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study. But if our child develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic diseases and MS is a demyelination disease. Myelin is designed to protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer coating over an electrical wire. When this myelin is damaged, neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result. (Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.) The nerves are short-circuited and do not function normally.

[Rayne]

Honestly, the fact that everyone is focusing solely on autism tells me that people aren't watching the video. Granted, it is 90 minutes and I don't expect everyone to watch it. There is a mention of autism but the entire video is about immunizations, the harm that they cause and the lack of proof that they actually even work. I don't discredit the commentary thus far, but would very much like to hear the response of anyone that actually does.

Sorry, I went off on the Autism rant when the extrordinary increase in Autism was mentioned and had to explain why it LOOKED like such an increase. That is my fault.

I haven't watched the video .... I honestly don't have the time to sit and watch a 90 minute video (in fact, in a few minutes I need to get up and get one kid out the door for a doctor's appointment and testing for her school afterwards). But I do know that I have been exposed to certain diseases that I had been vaccinated against. I have a extremely weak immune system from my Anemia ... I catch EVERYTHING I come in contact with. So it MUST have worked.

[violentivy]

,' myself, can't imagine not taking the risk of vaccinating. Nothing has been linked definately to immunizations ... and we'll probably never know. I have four children. One of whom, is Autistic. Another one has ADHD/ODD. I doubt immunizations had anything to do with it ... my other two do not have any similar problems. I would much rather deal with my son's Autism (which is high functioning) rather than have him possibly die from something that could have been prevented'

Ditto that.....but the thing is....they are not allowed to enter grade school without proof of vacines so what choice do you have?

I don't even thing christian scientists get away with that....

There is actually a special form you can fill out in Michigan. It has to be signed by your doctor, but you can get away with it. Or at least you could back in 1999, because I was researching the idea of perhaps not vaccinating. I ended up doing it because, quite frankly, it was easier than dealing with the alternative of having to fight all of my daughter's life just to have her be able to go to school etc...

All and all, she's fine, my two boys are fine and they were all vaccinated. If anything my middle son is perhaps the smartest two year old I have ever met and I am not just saying it because he's my son. This is the general consensus of everyone who has met the lil guy. He has a vocabulary of at least a thousand words, can use full sentences and most people think he's four years old because of his maturity level. he has had all of his vaccinations, but we go to a doctor that only gives the ones that he feels are necessary. I believe we'd be able to tell already if there was going to be a problem due to them.

[angusfergus]

Honestly, the fact that everyone is focusing solely on autism tells me that people aren't watching the video. Granted, it is 90 minutes and I don't expect everyone to watch it. There is a mention of autism but the entire video is about immunizations, the harm that they cause and the lack of proof that they actually even work. I don't discredit the commentary thus far, but would very much like to hear the response of anyone that actually does.

One thing that is not accounted for..Polio has been virtually eradicated from the world because of vaccinations. In 2004, there were approximately 1100 polio cases, 800 of which were in Nigeria.

In 1952, there were approximately 60,000 new cases of polio. Five years later, after a nationwide vaccination program using the brand new Salk vaccine, there were only 5600 new cases. In 1964, there would be only 121 new cases. After 1979, there would be no new cases of indigenous polio transmission in the US.

Contrast that with the WHO resolution passed in 1988 to eradicate polio globally, because there were 350,000 cases occuring annually worldwide.

That sounds to me like a ridiculous amount of evidence showing that vaccinations work.

With any vaccination, you run the risk of actually catching the disease. That's how vaccinations work.

When vaccinations start becoming the major cause of the disease they are vaccinating against, that is NOT a negative...that means the vaccination has worked well for an extended period, to the point where most new exposure to the disease is to the vaccine.

Source:

http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm

[Marblez]

That sounds to me like a ridiculous amount of evidence showing that vaccinations work.

Source:

http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm

If you were to watch the video, you would see that the disease was on the same downward trend even prior to the vaccination. Additionally, the reverse effect happened with Polio as Rayne brought up with Autism. Back in the day, in the time of the extreme #s, Polio was described as paralysis of the lower extremities. At that time any paralysis of the legs would have been counted as polio - regardless of the actual cause. As people get proper diagnosis, it could cause a false appearance of the decrease in the disease. This along with more affordable medicine, proper diagnosis and a steady increase in efficient sanitation could be more to blame in the eradication of this disease.

[angusfergus]

If you were to watch the video, you would see that the disease was on the same downward trend even prior to the vaccination. Additionally, the reverse effect happened with Polio as Rayne brought up with Autism. Back in the day, in the time of the extreme #s, Polio was described as paralysis of the lower extremities. At that time any paralysis of the legs would have been counted as polio - regardless of the actual cause. As people get proper diagnosis, it could cause a false appearance of the decrease in the disease. This along with more affordable medicine, proper diagnosis and a steady increase in efficient sanitation could be more to blame in the eradication of this disease.

Two years before the vaccine was implemented was the highest number of cases on record. That's not a downward trend. Polio was defined as debility of the lower extremities in 1789. The first polio epidemic in the United States was an estimated 132 cases in Vermont in 1894. The virus was first identified in 1908. Massachusetts was the first to track polio cases, beginning in 1909. The known cases of polio occurring from 1909 on were all true cases of polio, and the number was peaking right before the vaccine was introduced. I don't care if you don't want to vaccinate your children, but don't make that decision because of ignorance of the effectiveness of vaccines.

[Marblez]

One thing that is not accounted for..Polio has been virtually eradicated from the world because of vaccinations. In 2004, there were approximately 1100 polio cases, 800 of which were in Nigeria.

In 1952, there were approximately 60,000 new cases of polio. Five years later, after a nationwide vaccination program using the brand new Salk vaccine, there were only 5600 new cases. In 1964, there would be only 121 new cases. After 1979, there would be no new cases of indigenous polio transmission in the US.

Contrast that with the WHO resolution passed in 1988 to eradicate polio globally, because there were 350,000 cases occuring annually worldwide.

That sounds to me like a ridiculous amount of evidence showing that vaccinations work.

With any vaccination, you run the risk of actually catching the disease. That's how vaccinations work.

When vaccinations start becoming the major cause of the disease they are vaccinating against, that is NOT a negative...that means the vaccination has worked well for an extended period, to the point where most new exposure to the disease is to the vaccine.

Source:

http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliotimeline.htm

Let's continue with polio.

Polio vaccine causes increase in polio infection.

polio_1.bmp

Polio cases increase with administration of other vaccines.

polio_2.bmp

Adverse Reactions (including death) to polio vaccine may be more common than you think...and this is just ONE of the 14 vaccines that we give our children!

polio_3.bmp

The number of polio cases fell abruptly after immunizations were introduced. Was it the vaccine or was it the result of proper diagnosis?

polio_4.bmp

polio_6.bmp

Was the fall really that abrupt or was it on it's way out already? Could this be due to people being in better general health and less susceptible because of better medical care, having better sanitary systems and better nourishment?

polio_5.bmp

Source: The polio vaccine: a critical assessment of its arcane history, efficacy, and long-term health-related consequences

[Marblez]

I don't care if you don't want to vaccinate your children, but don't make that decision because of ignorance of the effectiveness of vaccines.

I take offense at the use of the word ignorance. If it were ignorance, I would not be researching this. You do not know me, but I generally loathe conspiracy theorists. I will make my decision for my children but not without first being confident that I am making the best possible choice for them. That way, I can know that I had done my best in the case that my decision is incorrect. This, my friend, is not ignorance.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I know you're only trying to do what's best for your kids, so I asked my husband to look into some of your claims. Honestly, if I thought you were just spewing this stuff to be a conspiracy theorist, I wouldn't have had my husband waste his time. I know you're only looking out for your kids and so does he, so he was glad to do some research on what you found.

He also said that if you would like the full text of any of these articles and you can't download them, he probably can download them from the university. Additionally, he said if you're REALLY, REALLY concerned, he could put you in contact with some of his friends in the epidimiology department, but they'll all tell you the same thing - the risk from NOT vaccinating your children is much greater than the risk of vaccinating them.

All the answers written below are his.

The pertussis vaccine is very neurotoxic and is used in the laboratory to produce brain lesions in lab animals for study.

--Not true, besides, why would you just haphazardly “produce brain lesion” in lab animals?

But if our child develops brain problems after a DPT vaccination, our doctor will tell us it is coincidence or genetic. Vaccinations have been known to increase the demyelination, a process related to many neurologic diseases and MS is a demyelination disease.

--Here is a link to real data about serious neurological disorders and DPT: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?D...Pubmed_RVDocSum

If you look this over, keep in mind that there is always a risk of developing a disease (especially one you’re not vaccinated for). When you read about Odds Ratios, to make a complicate story short, if the 95% confidence interval (CI) crosses over one (such as if it says 0.7 to 1.8), that means that the risk is no greater or less than normal.

Myelin is designed to protect the outer coating of neurons, much like the plastic outer coating over an electrical wire

--much more complicated than that though, and more for saltatory conduction than protection.

When this myelin is damaged, neurological disorders, such as, MS, paralysis, or ALS, will result. (Singh mentioned autism as a result of demyelination disorder.)

--No, MS and ALS result in demyelination, not the other way around

A 1992 study published in The American Journal of Epidemiology shows that children die at a rate 8 times greater than normal within three days after getting a DPT vaccination.

--I can’t find this article to talk about it. It makes no sense to me, but who knows. However, there was an interesting article about SIDS and vaccination from 2005 (keep in mind medical research prior to 2003 is considered quite old), which pointed out that although vaccination doesn’t cause SIDS, both peak at the same time. The point is that vaccination the day or two before occurs infrequently and is only a chance association.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?D...Pubmed_RVDocSum

A preliminary study by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) found children who received the HiB vaccine ... were found to be 5 times more likely to contract the disease than children who had not received the vaccine.

--See the link but here’s a snippet:

“According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), before the vaccine was made available, one out of every 200 U.S. children under 5 got an invasive Hib disease, and 600 children died of meningitis every year. Children who survived often suffered from deafness, seizures, or mental retardation. Since the vaccine was introduced in 1987, the rate of Hib infection has fallen 98 percent. Among children under 5, cases of invasive Hib have declined 99 percent.”

http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-hib-vaccin...Info%407ca0f7bf

In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

--Yes, a few hundred cases in cincinatti, most of which were not severe (80 hospitalization out of the 255 children infected) and which caused no deaths. Without the vaccines the headline may have been “summer of coughing death”.

In 1977 Dr Jonas Salk (inventor of the Salk polio vaccine) testified with other scientists that 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

--Yes, and it was far fewer than would otherwise have been in existence. 87% of a very low number is far better than 0.1% of a very large number. Besides, OPV is not used anymore, and there has never been a case of polio with IPV.

The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the us today.

--Completely false. The OPV is now (since 2000) not recommended by the CDC, but instead a series of killed polio injections are used.

The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

--This is way out of context. Check out the real article. Yes only 1 of 11 susceptible OB’s got vaccinated, but in what time period, and remember that 86% of the health care workers were already vaccinated:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?D...Pubmed_RVDocSum

Polio vaccine causes increase in polio infection.

--Not true. The OPV caused has an extremely rare risk of contracting the disease (less than 1 in a million), but OPV is no longer used. Polio vaccination protects from polio, period. While polio is wiped out in the western hemisphere it is actually on the rise in the developing world due to fear of being vaccinated (the new rumor in parts of Africa is that vaccinations cause HIV, hence decreased vaccinations). Unvaccinated carriers (Polio is a stomach bug to many and paralyzing to some) can easily come to the US and press elevator buttons.

Polio cases increase with administration of other vaccines.

--This graph is from the 50’s. People were only starting to be immunized for polio, and it may be that diagnosis was higher in those being vaccinated.

Adverse Reactions (including death) to polio vaccine may be more common than you think...and this is just ONE of the 14 vaccines that we give our children!

--Again, OPV is not given any more. Keep in mind that study is now more than 10 years old, and concerned a vaccine no longer given. Check out a newer VAERS report:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5201.pdf

Reporting of adverse effects seems to be somewhere in the order of 50 reports per million people in a given area. Read this through if you’d like, but keep in mind that this is all about the bad stuff of vaccination, but it really is nothing compared to the diseases

The number of polio cases fell abruptly after immunizations were introduced. Was it the vaccine or was it the result of proper diagnosis?

--There is no treatment for polio. It’s true, only about 1 percent of people infected with polio develop the terrible lifelong paralysis. Aseptic meningitis is non bacterial meningitis, it’s actually what the severe form of polio is called anyways since all it means is swelling of the meninges without corresponding culturable bacteria: (http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/polio.jsp), but aseptic meningitis can be caused by Chicken pox and a ton of other viruses.

polio_6.bmp ( 78.37K ) Number of downloads: 0

--The most recent data in this graph is from 1962. The only way to refute it would be to go back in time and not vaccinate people, so since it;s not realy testable it's not really great evidence. Polio virus prevents 95% of infections with Polio (tested in countless animals where they’re then given the polio virus if you don’t believe the epidemiology stuff). I think that protecting kids from what we can is important.

Was the fall really that abrupt or was it on it's way out already? Could this be due to people being in better general health and less susceptible because of better medical care, having better sanitary systems and better nourishment?

--Probably not, but better conditions always help.

--And one more link for you to peruse - http://db.doyma.es/cgi-bin/wdbcgi.exe/doym...num=1&pag=1

[pomba gira]

That is excellent information, Sass. Would your husband mind if I copied it to share with parents? As a special ed teacher I get asked about all kinds of issues that are really beyond my expertise.

I think we are all somewhat handicapped in this discussion because we're from a time and place with no experience of widespread serious infectious diseases. We don't know what it's like to live with the full expectation that at least one of our children will die before adulthood. Knowing that something "used to happen all the time" is a lot different from living with the reality. I imagine anyone who had watched their child slowly suffocate from diptheria, which actually causes a membrane to grow blocking the airways, couldn't get their other children to the vaccination clinic fast enough.

I am not poo-pooing anyone's concerns about immunizations, or saying that they're risk-free. No medical procedure or treatment is risk-free. But... Bottom line for me: hordes of children (and adults) used to die of or be crippled by these diseases. Now they don't.

[Kit Kat P]

Both my mom and sister are nurses. My sister is an RN at a large hospital and my mom is an LVN at a pediatrician's office. They have heard and seen both sides of this coin. They are still very much for immunizations. Alternately they are finding that mothers that didn't vaccinate their daughters, and in-turn their daughters choose not vaccinate their children, those children are more susceptible to far more things, they don't know the linkage but random bit of knowledge. I do feel this is a personal choice and am glad to see your taking such a balanced approach.

If you don't mind, once you decide will you let us know you decision and how you decided?

[sass_in_the_pants]

That is excellent information, Sass. Would your husband mind if I copied it to share with parents? As a special ed teacher I get asked about all kinds of issues that are really beyond my expertise.

No, he wouldn't mind at all and actually I think he would be happy to know he helped someone.

All of the information there he got from public sources online, so none of it is proprietary anyway.