And So On That Note....

[Steven]

you all demand tolerance - but you often do not tolerate me.

you all call for open mindedness - unless that includes a mind like my own

Edited: Most of this post as its clearly intended to cause more drama not fix any existing drama. Basically trying to argue that two wrongs make a right. Lots of very negative ways of making points.

That's the key here, you can make a point without the rude tone and insults.

There are several other posts that probably deserve the same treatment but i only have so much energy. I love you Steven and i like 95% of your posts, but that doesn't matter i still have a job to do.

Poster and Brass set to post pre-approval for 7 days for continuation of on-board drama right after being directly asked to stop. Typically this is not publicly announced but this particular situation is just been ongoing for far to long. -Troy

[BrassFusion]

This could get deleted or at the very least moved to a different thread, whatever, not sure. Steven, I DO love you and you're a hella person, but you're not perfect. You've been around the block obviously, and you know what's right for YOU. Even if you did know what was right for EVERYBODY else, that doesn't mean it should be legislated.

You know I think I know what's right for everybody. But there are things I believe make for a good and decent life that I would never consent to passing as law. Like... agnosticism, for example. Churches are stupid, in my opinion, but they should still exist if people like them.

[torn asunder]

to be honest, steven, i'm not sure if this should be deleted or not - i totally see where you're coming from, but one thing i want to mention that you seem to be neglecting - nobody on this board is telling you that you can't defend your position - nobody is saying that you have to play along. what does need to happen, and i say this to everyone on the board is that when voicing one's opinion, it needs to be done in a respectful manner!

steven, you & i have gone roundabout several times, and not once have we ever resorted to name-calling, baiting, or condescension. the gay marriage debate is one of the only serious threads i've gotten involved in recently (getting ready to post an alread-written reply when i'm done here) and i'm doing so because it has some very weel-thought-out arguments in it! this board needs people like you & brass & several others who have strong beliefs and are willing to stand up & voice them - it's what makes this such an intelligent, vibrant community!

that being said, debate can be had without disrespect - this goes for everyone, not any one individual - and i think that was the whole point.

[Msterbeau]

I don't always agree with you Steven, certainly not on the religious front, but I respect your opinion and I will always defend your right to say things the way you do, because you generally don't go down the path of name calling. Troy may avoid conflict too much... I do too, but what's right about his path is trying to get people to play nice and stop with the personal attacks, the arrogance and the name calling.

I haven't popped into the Gay marriage thread much because I'm busy with getting back to Detroit and I don't have the time to sit down and make thoughtful responses right now. I do, however, have the time to tell you that you're a worthwhile member of this community and I'd more likely feel that someone else was the problem child.

[torn asunder]

I think that you are full of shit, but have a right to be full of shit.

Which I suppose is not a very respectful way of voicing my opinion either.

no it's not very respectful - was there a point to this post?

[Fierce Critter]

Just want to repeat what I said in another thread.

I know where you're coming from with what you've seen and what you've experienced and why you feel the way you do on certain subjects.

I understand and - mostly - respect that. And very often, actually agree with you. What you've seen and experienced is irrefutable.

What I disagree with is what you feel should be the final outcome resulting from the things you've observed. But I hope I've always responded as such respectfully and tactfully, as I try to do with everyone I converse with - on board and off.

I'll stick my neck out and say - publicly - that I find it ludicrous if Steven gets reprimanded for the way he states his opinion on here, even on intense subjects that he expresses particularly fervent stances. In most - if not all - cases, he's respectful, even if he's diametrically opposed to someone else.

I'm in Steven's court where certain person(s) are concerned who don't display the same respect to others. I have them on ignore, because I can't stand their methods of communication and the general bullshit they spew ad infinitum, with no empathy for anyone outside of their own (hot)airspace.

And I specified "publicly" above because I can't tell you how many times I've stood up to some particularly ugly posters, and had PM's immediately afterward giving me kudos, yet not having the balls to back me up publicly.

Yawn. Whatever.

I do not have Steven on ignore. He's given me no reason to. And we disagree STRONGLY on certain points. If his language is getting more pointed and direct towards certain people he also is finding increasingly annoying in their responses, well, he's probably just saying what I would if I didn't have the same people on ignore.

I agree with the play nice rules here. I just think there is a certain amount of discrimination involved in to whom they are applied.

Steven, yes, you are in the minority here. I pointed out earlier in the "Gay marriage" thread that DGN is not your average group of average Americans. I hold the same stances that most of the others do. I might even wish you felt differently. But I don't hold it against you. I hope I've never come across that way.

It's a difficult juggling act. Holding fast to what you believe while allowing people who are opposed to your beliefs close. Not all of us are very good at it.

Babbling...

[torn asunder]

I agree with the play nice rules here. I just think there is a certain amount of discrimination involved in to whom they are applied.

i take issue with this... if you feel the mods are being selective, take it up with the mod staff. on another note, since you're not mod staff, you have no idea who has/hasn't been spoken with, and with that being the case, you have nothing on which to base your "discrimination" statement. please refrain from accusation unless you have proof of such...

thank you.

[Fierce Critter]

i take issue with this... if you feel the mods are being selective, take it up with the mod staff. on another note, since you're not mod staff, you have no idea who has/hasn't been spoken with, and with that being the case, you have nothing on which to base your "discrimination" statement. please refrain from accusation unless you have proof of such...

thank you.

I have taken it up with staff.

You also have no idea who I have and haven't spoken with.

I have plenty on which to base my statement. It's who I see posting what and who I don't.

[Msterbeau]

I would point out one thing to you Steven. This is not always the right answer, and certainly not the only answer to dealing with subjects that draw heated debate but: You're a passionate guy. Generally speaking, I admire that about you. Sometimes. though, you need to recognize that emotions are running high and you should consider disengaging for a day or two from a particular thread, or maybe even the board as a whole, in order to give yourself some breathing room and time to think about why you're so vehemently defending one position over and over again. If you know you've covered the topic already and the participants know that, further discussion may be pointless... other then to get everyone else riled up.

I do this often... perhaps it seems like being a coward and not defending your turf. I would disagree with that. For me, getting all emotional (in a negative, angry way) is usually the path to name calling and other behavior I don't want to be a part of. So, for me, it's best to just let it go. I don't often see you do that. Not from my perspective. Maybe that's a tool to try out?

[BrassFusion]

Veering off topic slightly, but... I think she's complaining about the posting habits of people she has on ignore.

[torn asunder]

I have taken it up with staff.

You also have no idea who I have and haven't spoken with.

I have plenty on which to base my statement. It's who I see posting what and who I don't.

how would you know who's posting what if you're ignoring them? (just curious?) and if it's simply by others quoting them, and you getting the whole story? are you sure? i don't know, just a thought...

[Fierce Critter]

how would you know who's posting what if you're ignoring them? (just curious?) and if it's simply by others quoting them, and you getting the whole story? are you sure? i don't know, just a thought...

It takes a lot for me to put someone on ignore. Because it's a totally imperfect system of keeping negatives out of my life. When I've tried other methods such as attempting to reason with them or taking it further to staff to intercede and none of that works - I stop bitching and use what methods are available, imperfect as they are.

But when I see nothing is being done about it and I really don't need to have their input in my life anymore,

The quoting is part of the problem. Forces me to read what I really do not give a rats' ass about. And continues to reaffirm that nothing has changed.

Then there are the instances where a direct response to something I've posted comes up, and I am manipulated into reading it to ensure I'm not being slagged or misinformation isn't being spread. I don't understand the obsessive narcissism of a person who just won't give someone else respectful space.

I continue to get private messages from people complaining about the same things.

Grows tiresome after a while, you know?

And back to topic, pisses me off when I see someone who is - for the vast, vast majority of the time - respectful and tactful with others backed into a corner simply for defending a stance that differs from the rest of us.

[BrassFusion]

No one's forcing anyone to read anything and no one's forcing a response. Hell, I'd like to THINK I had that much power over people (just using myself as an example, of course), but I'm not quite *that* arrogant. Y'all can quote me on this.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

There are so many things I could say.

[Msterbeau]

There are so many things I could say.

So say them. No use just sitting there with your head on fire...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

No sense beating my head against the wall either. I agree, there is, for lack of a better word, favortism.

Everyone is open minded, unless the view expressed conflicts strongly with the given status qou of accepted thought.

Everyone is respectfull, unless talking to someone who has the above said view.

Everyone is treated the same by the mods, unless, they are the ones defending thier above stated view.

Thats the way it is. Denial of that doesn;t change it. It may not be the official way things are done.. but it is the practice.

[BrassFusion]

No sense beating my head against the wall either. I agree, there is, for lack of a better word, favortism.

Everyone is open minded, unless the view expressed conflicts strongly with the given status qou of accepted thought.

Everyone is respectfull, unless talking to someone who has the above said view.

Everyone is treated the same by the mods, unless, they are the ones defending thier above stated view.

Thats the way it is. Denial of that doesn;t change it. It may not be the official way things are done.. but it is the practice.

You could always argue that there's bias. Hell, you can't objectify what is subjective by nature, which is to say, deciding what qualifies as an argument and what qualifies as an insult. There are too many variables in every unique situation. I really don't think Steven said anything horribly wrong, or did anything to be punished for, but... he wasn't really punished, was he?

[torn asunder]

No sense beating my head against the wall either. I agree, there is, for lack of a better word, favortism.

Everyone is open minded, unless the view expressed conflicts strongly with the given status qou of accepted thought.

Everyone is respectfull, unless talking to someone who has the above said view.

Everyone is treated the same by the mods, unless, they are the ones defending thier above stated view.

Thats the way it is. Denial of that doesn;t change it. It may not be the official way things are done.. but it is the practice.

honestly, i'm not sure i understand... mods aren't perfect - but there's a fine balancing act between allowing people to adequately voice their opinions, and thoroughly stifling a community by being heavy-handed. it's a balance that tests boundaries and rules on a regular basis, and requires specific consideration for each possible "infraction". btw, mods aren't perfect. decisions are made with both the dgn rules, and the best interests of the board in mind. are there mistakes? occasionally... are there inconsistencies? of course, since there's more than one mod on this board... are there people who push the boundaries, intentionally? of course! do they add anything of significant value to the board? in my opinion, they do. if they didn't, we wouldn't have had some of the most interesting, insightful, and educational exchanges that we do here. as for favoritism, no non-mods have any kind of full story on who is talked to/reprimanded about board rules, so they have nothing on which to base such a claim. people only see the portion in which they're involved, and if another party isn't *publicly* spoken to, they assume it didn't happen. not true, but then, that's really nobody else's business but the mod/mods, and the member/s involved...

[Head Wreck]

i've seen the bias on here too often tbh. i just ignore those icky drama bomb threads. they allways erupt into ideological flame wars. thats not what i'm about.

god knows myself and gaf have come close a few times, at the end of the day i respect that gaf had differing opinions to mine, and the same with your good self steven.

without a differing view knowlage and understanding can not be tested and improved apon.

opinions should never be targets of personal attacks. look at where northern ireland is/was at as regards this issue.

[Destroit]

So say them. No use just sitting there with your head on fire...

BWHAHAH head on fire...so great..sorry couldn't help it but that was amazing for some reason...

If I may, I suppose I wanna throw my two little pennies in this one, as miniscule as they may be. I have personally noticed a bit that you are indeed outnumbered, Steven, which is why I understand exactly why you feel as though you've been slighted a bit. I know this because I'm in the same Christian boat as you. Christians and republicans are a very small minority on the board, I pay attention to other posters and what they say (which is how I came to that realization), that's why I'm not very open about my religious or political stances because I'm always afraid of getting bashed for it, then having to like "bash back" kinda, and then start some stupid war about nothing, when quite honestly I have way better shit to do with my life. Actually the only other post where I made a stance on politics or religion was in the "7 Things" thread, and there I was bashed for it even though I just said that I was Christian/Republican and didn't even elaborate. I will say this: I have actually noticed your posts and will say that you've got some huevos, bro, 'cause much of the stuff you've said takes balls to bring out. I'd never say alot of that stuff, although I've thought it in my head, because as open minded as many claim to be....they're just not. I also respect you for the fact that you always stand by your word and don't back down. I do believe that when people report you to the mods though, it's because maybe you did indeed take it a step too far, calling certain people out or just making statements that seem slightly too abrasive. We have a very diverse community here on DGN, all different races, sizes, female, male, different views, hobbies, lifestyles, etc, and sometimes it's very hard to keep views from clashing with other people's views, and so that's why the mods are KEY on this board (lest we become like those dicks over at DCC, or what was DCC). I speak for myself, and obviously I'm sure the other mods go by the same thought, but sometimes we are just thrown in the middle of someone else's arguement without a whole lot of background information as to what is going on, who did what, said what, started it kinda shit, etc so we don't always get the entire picture. That's why it may seem we play favorites sometimes, because we're forced to make judgement and take action when WE don't even have the full picture. But our job is to be as fair as possible, I'd like to think the mods are unbiased, and the mod team seems pretty diverse (now with more diversity, i.e. myself, which I didn't even realize until now). On the same note, I've heard some horror stories from posters of the past about how unfair the mods are and how they tend to take sides, which I believe is the reason for Troy wanting more of us, instead of just a few. Creates less elitism, which to me is just a natural discourse of being human (i.e. people naturally tend to have crews and stand by them in conflict, even when they shouldn't), but still isn't right.

So basically what I think I may be trying to say is that it's wrong for you (or anyone else for that matter) to be attacked for your views. Period. There's plenty of people on the board where the things they think or post disgust me, to the point where I wish I could just PM and flame their ass, but then I calmly remind myself "it's their life, anything they do is between them and God, not me, it's not my place to judge". I've actually have had gay people tell me to their face that "I should be shot and killed for not being republican" and therefore not "open minded". Seriously. Which is funny because I love gay dudes, they rock my world, so obviously I'm open minded enough to accept them, and my ex-best-friend is a lesbian and almost all of her friends are too. But then they're saying that I should be shot just because I'm republican therefore "not open minded"? OH the irony right? Basically, you're going to run into idiots anywhere in the world on any community, people telling you how you should live your life (ironically, 9 times out of 10 it's usually how they live their life) but it's nothing to lose sleep over. Just try to be civil on the board, and when you get into tiffs with other members, always word everything so that you're not bashing the other person or calling anyone out. That way the other person seems like a dick instead of you. And not everyone is against you, I know I'm not, some of your posts you took the words right outta my mouth (or the ones I wish I had the balls to say).

[/end pennies]

[pharoh]

that being said, debate can be had without disrespect - this goes for everyone, not any one individual - and i think that was the whole point.

TA you know I like ya, but I gotta call ya on this (sorry I can't get dgn @ work so I just read this).

At least 80% of the time when a debate does get a little bit heated, you can read and tell the disrespect that is being tossed about, whether it is in people's replies or posting of topics or whatever. But yet I don't see alot of people getting checked about it (yes I know we can't see pm's). But if it is being stated publicly then I feel it should be kept public as well, and that might ruffle some feathers and upset people. But I am also the type of person who doesn't have anything to hide, not alot of people live that way and are very private and I can understand that.

I do see alot of sarcasm and blatent disrespect that doesn't get removed or that many locked threads either. Yes Steven is my friend and there are plenty of times we disagree, we don't post it because we hang out and discuss it in person. But I will always go to bat for him because he has alot of characteristics that I look for in a friend.

In then end, I think DGN is losing a cool cat, but if things don't progress this won't be the last person to leave on such a harsh note.

[BrassFusion]

what the? he's leaving dgn over this??

[Homicidalheathen]

I don't always agree with you, hell sometimes I hate what you say.......but I don't like everything about anybody.

Your a decent guy who has seen allot and has allot to offer.

I do respect your opinions.......I do overall like ya......hope you stick around.

[torn asunder]

I do see alot of sarcasm and blatent disrespect that doesn't get removed or that many locked threads either.

and my point is, if we reprimanded/banned everyone who might have possibly offended someone else, the only person left here would be troy! yes, things don't get locked down unless they get too serious - this is the balancing act i was talking about. in a heated debate/discussion, things may get a bit sarcastic, and maybe even a little "harsh" but the idea is to not be directly insulting at that point. (no name calling, etc...) obviously, it would be great if we could all be polite, respectful, and cordial to everyone, but i don't think anyone expects that to happen. so where does the line get drawn between being sarcastic, and being a jerk? it's a *judgement call* based on the *particular* thread, and the *particular* instance. i didn't see whatever steven wrote to warrant a pm - he had edited/changed it by the time i saw the thread. that being the case, i can't address this particular instance. all i can say is, people were "talked to", and there was no "singling out".

does that make sense?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

TA - OK. Thats looks fine on paper. In practice it sucks.

Why keep it so secret? If Member A and Member B are having a discussion and it somehow degrades into a flame war... as it so often does when ever Member B is involved... Both party's are involved. Right? They are both in the discussion..

nevermind...

We have talked about this before... the last time someone was baited by BF into a stupid argument and ended up getting a warning for it. Maybe you will see the patteren some day.