Posers And Wannabe's?

[phee]

The term "Poser" and "Wannabe" are terms that I had not heard in years when describing others in subculture settings... and then I have heard those terms in the last few months several times...

I heard these terms in Highschool all the time... drawing a distinction between those who are "real" or just "faking" it when it comes to the subculture... Then I found there really is no difference, you are going to be accused of faking it no matter what, you are going to be caused a poser if you don't know much about gothiness and you start trying to get into it, there is no way around it. The thing is there is a moment when people have seen you enough and all of a sudden they stop thinking you are faking and think you are "real"... I still feel like I am faking it, but I moderate on a goth board, I perform industrial music, and I have DJ'd at nectos... so people just stopped accusing me of it...

Honestly if someone is faking it... so what? they are listening the the music, drinking the booze and having fun right?

Usually when I hear someone throwing the term around, I make an assumption that they need to make themselves feel more important or better then others... It is the same as feeling Gothier then thow...

I had heard the term "tourist" before... and I guess I found that more accurate, it didn't really doesn't have any antagonistic context to it... it just seemed to described a person who is curious about "the club" or "the scene" and usually doesn't stay long.... Not that I have a problem with some mean terms (heh)

Just want to get your thoughts....

[phee]

And besides... those terms are exclusionary in nature.... aren't we supposed to be inclusive?

[Homicidalheathen]

Hell If I know. I am old. I didn't even know I was goth until someone pointed it out to me.

[know_buddy_kares]

i really think poser and wannabe are just words used by high schoolers to even further segregate their groups and single out chosen outcasts since they really don't know the difference between their elbows and assholes.

The only term I'd think that would really fit anything is wannabe and even then it's a rare thing. I'm sure you've seen this example, someone who is dressing as another culture, pretends to act all about it, but it's so obvious he never was and never will be. Example... a small town country boy who gets his hands on some DMX and then is runnin around with his pants hangin below his ass saying he's hard and from the inner city. In montrose and clio, I ran into SO MANY FUCKIN IDIOT KIDS that would dress this way and say they hang at "The D" (Detroit) every weekend with their "cousin" or something...

I had a hard enough time walking down parts of 6 mile in goth clothes when i was stranded once and ocasionally got fucked with, there's no way they'd even make it 20 feet before they'd get jumped. That's just one example of what I think a wannabe would be.

But anything else, everyone wants to be something. It just depends on if they can find their place or not. Some of us may not be gothic here, some of us are, but hey if you're not goth, and everyone's ok with that, and you're ok with hanging around goths then.. you found your place, it's ok. now if you're trying to join in a group or sub culture and it's just simply not working, then you're closer to a wannabe... and if you go back to your normal hole after getting rejected by such group and claim to be the biggest thing in that group, then you're going off to being a poser.

But mostly, kids under 22 do this. I'm not trying to point anyone out here or trying to be age discrimatory but ya know, it takes about a couple decades of life to gain some experience enough to figure yourself out, you're not born knowing everything, nor does a number to indicate age gain any special knowledge each time it bumps up one. But i say 22 cuz at that time, you've been out of high school for a while, gotten a taste of real life, possibly some college, ect.

Before then (myself included) would run off saying we're the biggest sex gods and miss divas, with anyone my age now can look at them and think.. yeah right you inexperienced fuck, 20 minutes with me and you won't beable to walk for the rest of the night. But hey, kids will be kids i guess.

[hunhee]

All my life, I felt like a poser, and I wanted to fit in and be accepted by the "debbies" <--as I call them (I called them that even before that cartoon network series The Oblongs). I mean, I really never felt like I truly fit IN with a crowd of people. I grew up in a small community that was primarily white/anglosaxen/prodestants. I'm not playing the race card here, but I was treated different, because I looked different, little did they know I WAS different. I still get treated differently, I'm always the token asian in any group of my friends. To put it plainly, I wouldn't know what to do with a group of asian people. I wouldn't fit in there either. Over time, I've just gotten used to the not really fitting in part. So you can call me a poser, or wannabe, doesn't matter, I don't take insult to any of it.

[Fierce Critter]

Hm. Good question.

I used to think in terms of "genuine article" "poseur", etc.

I think a lot of that came from observing people who go to places like CC and look the part - but then I hear them talking in the ladies' room about how they don't "usually dress like this, but were dragged in by a friend who made them up."

I also have tended to apply that term to people who look the part, yet are major assholes about others who are also in "goth regalia", judging their superiority over someone who maybe doesn't have quite the same skill applying liquid eyeliner.

I don't like snobs. Of any kind. You can be who you are, and be proud of it. But when you lord it over someone else, well, that reeks to me of some insecurity that brings on bullying.

I do use the "tourist" term. And not always disparagingly. I tend to throw that term at people who are in the club in very, very non-alternative dress who stand around gawking, drinking beer, never dancing, never really doing anything to "fit in". You've seen them - the guys/gals who discovered CC is open later than any other club, take up major space standing around in the ballroom, gawking, pointing and otherwise making nuisances of themselves.

I've seen "tourists" there, however, who are generally guests of regulars, who I don't get the same negative vibe from. For example, I think it was late last year there was a whole gaggle of guys dressed in jerseys from hockey or some other sport. I was in my cups, and told Jon I was going to go fuck with them. I discovered they were really nice guys, polite, genuinely amazed & interested in the "scene", and even just a touch intimidated. Instead of fucking with them, I ended up having some damned good conversation with them, and said it would be nice to see them in there again. They seemed to really appreciate being "accepted" by at least one "resident".

Outside of CC, I've become a lot less snobby myself about the "kids" (OMG - I've just labled myself OLD) who walk around in head-to-toe Hot Topic. For Christ's sake, if HT had been around when I was their age, damn right I would have shopped there - and I think if a lot of people who disparage HT on this board really considered that, they'd have to admit they'd have done the same. Just because we grew up without ready-made goth/punk/emo conveniently on hand and had to make-do by creating our own "look" from whatever we could scrounge up doesn't make us more "genuine" than anyone else. More original? Sure. But hell, I walk around in decidedly non-goth mufti on a regular day, so who the fuck am I to call the kids in the big denims with skull prints & straps "poseurs" because they were able to buy pre-made what I might have made myself in the 80's?

[Fierce Critter]

I still get treated differently, I'm always the token asian in any group of my friends.

Hey, have you met Dancing Asian Guy?

"ESCHER!! WE GOT ONE FOR YA!!!"

TOTALLY FUCKING KIDDING!!

[phee]

I seem to notice that certain traits give you a free pass when it comes to being a "poser" or a "wannabe"...

If you have a Europian accent of any kind... no matter what you wear or what you are into... you seem to be given a free pass...

If you wear a suit for some reason... people never question your goth points (remember the card game)?

If you are carrying a sketchbook...

If you are handicapped in someway...

[Onyx]

Ah - what a debate this could be. There are several ways to look at it.

I suppose if those terms apply to anyone at all it would be those who think "goth" girls and guys are easy and so they pop into a goth club to see if someone's drunk enough or desperate enough to go home with an icky stranger who happens to own some black jeans.

Is Goth a private exclusionary club you must deny to be a part of (the not-a-goths being the only *real* goths) or is it a fun sometimes goofy subculture where anyone can play?

I have always found myself attracted to the darker side of things and my weirdness comes out even when I don't notice it. Others do somehow. I find Goth boards and clubs are the only place one can really talk about suicidal feelings without someone freaking out and trying to commit me. Talking about it takes away it's power. Burying feelings like that make them grow and I really think has driven some to suicide.

Back on subject, when goth takes itself too seriously it's just silly.

"It's all just make believe, isn't it?"

~ Marilyn Monroe

[phee]

And complaining about it at a club? it seems kinda of silly, I mean what do people go to clubs for in the first place? Socialize... Dance... Drink... Be Seen.... is that where we want posers and wannabe's? can you think of a better place to indoctrinate? Isn't that why we have DGN night at a club, to gather new members and take in said "posers"?

[Homicidalheathen]

Or an australian one lol

Cause it just sounds so damn cool.

I seem to notice that certain traits give you a free pass when it comes to being a "poser" or a "wannabe"...

If you have a Europian accent of any kind... no matter what you wear or what you are into... you seem to be given a free pass...

If you wear a suit for some reason... people never question your goth points (remember the card game)?

If you are carrying a sketchbook...

If you are handicapped in someway...

[saechalyn]

I have mixed thoughts on these subjects. I have no patience for the uber goobers- the ones who say if you don’t have everything a band has ever made including the limited edition single that was only released in Germany in 1989 then you can’t call yourself a TRUE fan, or if your clothing isn’t hand sewn with 19th century Victorian lace and worn with a tiara of crushed flowers from Edgar Allan Poe’s grave...you get the idea. I have no energy for these people. I don’t fault them for their interests but my priorities lie elsewhere. I don’t consider myself goth so I don’t care if anyone else does or not.

On the other hand, if someone is wearing a plastic halloween cape with blue jeans and tennis shoes and has an ankh drawn on their face with sharpie, I’m going to laugh. A lot.

As for the tourist issue...to me, it’s all about intent. If you’re at the club because you’re curious and you want to check it out, more power to ya. My complaint about “tourists” is when gaggles of drunk guys show up just looking to harass people/cause trouble.

It’s one thing to get “Are you a vampire?... Do you want to suck my blood?... OMG You look so evil!... Will you be my mistress?” and other assorted bullshit when I’m out in the “normal” world, but really, I’d like my club to be a haven from that kind of bullshit. I do miss clubs with dress codes for that reason- just something simple like no blue jeans, sneakers or ballcaps. Everyone should be able to work around that. It didn’t solve the asshole problem completely of course, but it did cut down on the riffraff considerably.

[Daniel]

Honestly if someone is faking it... so what? they are listening the the music, drinking the booze and having fun right?

Usually when I hear someone throwing the term around, I make an assumption that they need to make themselves feel more important or better then others... It is the same as feeling Gothier then thow...

Generally, I agree that anyone throwing the term "poser" around probably is the biggest poser in the group. Actually, let me refine that statement by saying that anyone "throwing the term around" is definitely the real poser. But, there are cases where it is easy to identify a poser and it simply needs to be called. But, ultimately, who cares? Posers have become an archetype, a standard bearer, and a permanent fixture in nearly every established "scene".

However, for the sake of discussion...

A poser isn't someone faking it. You can't fake putting on fishnets and a Christian Death T-shirt. You are either wearing it or you aren't and no one is more justified in it than anyone else. However, I usually identify a poser as someone who has spent an unusual amount of time studying other people's styles, ideas and tastes and then trying to emulate it without understanding why the original person was wearing those clothes, or were listening to those bands, or whatever. Essentially, "posers" miss the point, which is really the defining characteristic, along with trite and predictable tastes. We'll call it meaningless, imitative fashion, and without a authentic sense of yourself, or a sense of taste, you end up looking like a generic scene poser. I personally reserve the "poser" tag for the most obvious examples of this. It just happens to be that, in my opinion, City Club is crawling with these people.

The people I really think are posers are kids, who often work in record stores, that are one week goth, the next week punk, the next week emo or indie, and so on. And they have the appropriate hair style, strategically arranged clothes, carefully picked band pins on their bags and just the right mix of mp3 files on their iPods. It is incredibly tedious and I don't know how someone can study the peculiarities of fashion and style so much and not be able to come up with one original idea of their own to cling onto. It boggles my mind! Of course, these kids are more than welcome to continue on this path. But don't pretend to be open-minded and say it is ok for them to do this, but not ok for me or anyone else to think it is ridiculous when people do this sort of thing.

The question isn't whether or not most of these people are posers or not, it is whether or not it matters to them or you. If all you're looking to do is listen to music, drink boozes and have fun... well, I don't see why even having this discussion matters. Those are pretty simple goals to achieve, and anyone thinking you're a poser, especially if you are one, shouldn't obstruct achieving those ends. In fact, it seems those are pretty much the same goals people are shooting for at the country western bar, too.

As a side note: I love snobs with refined taste and a justified sense of pride about themselves. I find these people much more enriching than the sloppy, uninspired frumpy people that are cool with everything. I simply like people with Nuts that don't compromise themselves for fear of offending someone's delicate sensibilities, and make a serious effort to improve and refine themselves. I like people who can show me something new, make me think something I haven't thought of before. Some of the best music and art I've been introduced to over the years has been through these people. Some of the best and most revolutionary ideas I have heard have come from those people.

The idea that a snob is a snob because they have an insecurity complex is pretty laughable to me. Sure, there are people like that, who condescend others to mask an insecurity complex, but that isn't the rule by far. But I don't want to derail the OT to elaborate on the definition and connotation of the word "snob".

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

On the other hand, if someone is wearing a plastic halloween cape with blue jeans and tennis shoes and has an ankh drawn on their face with sharpie, I’m going to laugh. A lot

Dude, who told you my City Club outfit plans for this week?

[LuluVox]

SHARPIE + FACE = MAXIMUM LOL!!!!!

Sorry, that's all I've got to say right now.

[Daevion]

Don't feel bad everyone is a poser.......if you fake something long enough you become that which you have faked, do you not?

[Draco1958]

I'm a wannabe poser.

[Scary Guy]

Anyhow I came to the realization long ago that the posers are better than the normal people. At least they don't annoy me as much.

Then again at least the normal people are acting as who they are, which I can respect.

It's more of a difference between your every day goths and your weekend warriors.

Daevion has it right too, and technically we're all posers anyhow since none of us are old enough and weren't there when it happened. I mean shit isn't Peter Murphy like 50 now?

Personally I am who I am, if I pose as anything it's as myself.

Also the next time anyone calls you a poser ask them "WTF are you in fucking highschool still"? Generally that will shut them up.

Or do like me and point at your hearse.

Wait you don't have hearses do you?

Posers

[phee]

Don't feel bad everyone is a poser.......if you fake something long enough you become that which you have faked, do you not?

Indeed....

I am not popular enough to be different

[freydis]

I think they're terms created to exclude people...

i've never really fit into one "mold" anyway.

i'm just a weirdo..... always have been.....

[Lilith]

My 12 year old informed me yesterday that his old friend "Z" no longer wanted to be his friend casue "Z" had gotten new Skater Friends and those friends said My kid was a poser. So in my world the use of the word is a kid thing and they apprantly still use it. I think its pretty shitty of "z" but i guess kids will be kids.

[phee]

My 12 year old informed me yesterday that his old friend "Z" no longer wanted to be his friend casue "Z" had gotten new Skater Friends and those friends said My kid was a poser. So in my world the use of the word is a kid thing and they apprantly still use it. I think its pretty shitty of "z" but i guess kids will be kids.

Yeah... it seems to belong in a 12 year old world... I was just surprised to actually here people over the age of 21 using the term and actually meaning it...

[creatureofthenyte]

kind of like Daniel said,

I too think that these terms are only relavent to those who choose to pay attention to stuff like that.

Its just a case of the ongoing revolving door of: sometimes we care what others think of us and sometimes we don't.

It seems to be a struggle to stay one way or the other for any great length of time.

Myself,

I go thru periods of not caring what others think of me,

but I think Im screwed;

because Im gemini,

and as a gemini,

I have an insatiable sense of curiousity,

so I may not care what other people think of me,

persay,

but on the flipside,

Im curious as to what they think of me,

all at the same time if that makes any sense.

[Scary Guy]

Yeah... it seems to belong in a 12 year old world... I was just surprised to actually here people over the age of 21 using the term and actually meaning it...

Proving that most of the City Club crowd has the mentality my classmates did back in Middle/High School (actually they probably still have that mentality).

[Daevion]

silly gawths!