Posers And Wannabe's?

[Daniel]

Posting on message boards = gaining new knowledge = social interaction = sharing, caring & being involved = postivity = worth my time.

Pissing on people = putting myself above someone else = waste of time that could be spent in POSITIVE pursuits = negativity = waste of time.

I didn't say I was "too busy". I said doing the above is, generally, a waste of time.

For anyone.

Well, I'm sure all this lofty boasting about your obvious loathing for "negativity" fits nicely into one of those criteria in the "worth my time" category. I sure hope you see the inherent contradictions in your going on with this point, however. I could elaborate further, but I don't honestly believe that should be necessary with you.

[Daniel]

It's really too bad that people can't be liked despite being different, if only ever so slightly.

I think in the context of this thread, liking people who might be a 'poser' or 'tourist' has nothing to do with them being different, slightly or otherwise. In fact, I don't think someone being a 'poser' has anything to do with whether or not I like them, personally. One of my good friends has posed in nearly every scene there is at some point or another. This year he is into the whole neofolk, Current 93/Death In June thing. Next week it could be psychobilly. Again, who gives a shit?

The point is, however, the lack of genuineness, and whether or not you feel like being around that sort of thing. Have you ever talked to someone and you just know they are projecting an insincere friendliness? Like they are super effervescent and sunny toward you, but they are doing it for protocol, not because they actuallylike you or appreciate your company? See, this doesn't bother some people. It does bother other people, and the reason it bothers them is because of the lack of sincerity. It isn't because the genuine person thinks they are necessarily better or above the insincere person. It could be as simple as the insincere person makes the sincere person uncomfortable, or feel exposed, or any other myriad of reasons. What ever the case, I don't see being uncomfortable with this sort of behavior as being overtly negative or judgmental.

It is basically the same situation with the 'posers' and 'tourists'. If they would just... stop the insincerity and be themselves, whether Goth or not, or whatever the fuck they are, it would be worlds better than them just emulating others in an effort to fit in. And even still, if they want to emulate someone's style to fit in, hey! That's just fine by me. But the idea of going to a club full of these people is exhausting to me, and obviously I am not alone. I don't think they are bad people, I simply don't derive any pleasure from hanging around a group of Goth emulators. I'm sure they are wonderful friends, fathers and mothers, daughters and sons and have plenty of good to contribute to the world around them, I just find interacting with that many of them to be tedious and draining.

Taken out of the context of a sweaty, dirty club full of this insincerity, it isn't a big deal. I repeat, who gives a shit? But in a place like City Club, the over-saturation can be overwhelming to some of us who have been around it enough over the years. It is good for comedy once in a while, particularly if I have an out-of-towner to take with me, but otherwise, guh. Unfortunately, I'm not only looking to drink, dance and listen to bad music so I have a bit higher expectation.

[Fierce Critter]

Well, I'm sure all this lofty boasting about your obvious loathing for "negativity" fits nicely into one of those criteria in the "worth my time" category. I sure hope you see the inherent contradictions in your going on with this point, however. I could elaborate further, but I don't honestly believe that should be necessary with you.

Ummm... is there something going on here I'm not privy to?

I don't see where this is coming from.

Why is it being "lofty" or "boasting" to say I prefer to avoid negativity? That I think it's a waste of time in a person's life?

I'm certainly not perfect. I get pissed. I get cranky. I do and say things that later, I regret.

But as my life has gone on, I've learned that I really do prefer more "nice" in my life, more "positive."

This is also where a lot of my political/social leanings stem from. For instance, the reason I feel the way I do about things like gay marriage is because, by itself, I don't see it as a negative thing. But when people start being annoyed & upset about what other people are doing, then it becomes negative. Just leave each other alone and don't try to push people around and people will, generally, do fine methinks.

Now, on the other hand, you have, in the past, admitted to me that sometimes you like to play devil's advocate and even argue a point you don't personally believe, just to "have some fun" or "mess with people". If that's what you're doing here, please, you're wasting your time. You're not making me think twice about my stance on negativity - if anything, your borderline attempts at getting a rise out of me are becoming boring, and I'm more likely to start ignoring you.

Generally, I find your method of posting to be eloquent and I admire the way you stand by your viewpoint. But knowing what I said above, I'm hardpressed to take you very seriously.

I have other reasons, but if you want to discuss them, we can go to PM's.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

you know....many of these posts aren't about the definition or the subject,

but more along the lines of "omg...some-one used the word poser!"

I understand that many consider it an insult, and yes,

I do have something of a loftiness when I say it, because

I often look down on "posers" and "wannabes".

It's a flaw, but not a major one.

What is really getting me is that everyone

seems content that the scene is overly saturated

with people that have no real essence of the life they

are portraying.

I understand we can't put up a "no Posers" sign.

but does it bother anyone else but me that we are just waiting for them to fit in??

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Yes and No.

I feel sorry for them.. because they are not comfortable enough with who they really are to be themselves... whatever that may be.

At the same time, they annoy me to all hell, because, well, they are breathing my air and taking up my space. so to speak.

I can;t do anything about it though. So, point and laugh at the really bad ones and ignore the rest. They will either get bored and go away or be themselves and make a few real freinds.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

If someone is a "poser or wannabee" that is: "someone fake / copying / not really part of X group/idea/scene but trying act like they are" i think the term is relevant as a shorthand way of explaining someones actions. "Pretender" is an older term with similar implications. If that's all the words imply i think its fine. Unfortunately thats not all thats intended.

I was , at one time very heavily in the "omg I'm so special look at that jackass over there that just dyed his hair blue yesterday and thinks hes cool, how fake." type camp. Often I'd point this kind of stuff out to others. Just because i thought it was "fun" or Maybe i felt threatened by others lack of originality and/or irritated by it. Often I'd mistake some sort of mental dress code concept for "being real" or "being fake" and how dare they be so impudent as to think they are special by copying something they saw on the cover of Propaganda or CMJ.

Privately I do sometimes use this sort of "poser" concept as a source of humor , both of the so-called posers and them that think they have some special key that allows them to be superior to the "posers".

But I've slowly realized none of us came preformed out of the womb "being ourselves" and its a learning process. If we aren't learning/growing in some way every day we aren't paying attention. We all learn by copying other ideas / styles / concepts. We may put 2 and 2 together in a unique way but so what.

Using the term "poser" as a tool to separate "us" from "them" is a mistake i think. One that i didn't realize for at least a decade. We are all in this deal together, like it or not there aren't any "others." If we take the time to understand other people, and i mean REALLY understand them, from start to finish, its hard to be overly judgmental.

I know more about X subject and am more original than X person? If some guy has "less originality" than I do i now feel its just a lack of kindness/understanding on my part to intentionally go out my way to insult him for it.

[Steven]

isint every social click full of people who think they are legitimite while looking downward on those they feel dont muster up?

its a basic human trend, no? Ive seen the same thing go down in Rock circles on the sunset strip and in Bel Aire at private parties with the A-Listers I used to work for and even in drug dens up in Howard and Navarro in Pasadena..... no different than what your all discussing here.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Using the term "poser" as a tool to separate "us" from "them" is a mistake i think. One that i didn't realize for at least a decade. We are all in this deal together, like it or not there aren't any "others." If we take the time to understand other people, and i mean REALLY understand them, from start to finish, its hard to be overly judgmental.

*ponders this point, as well as the others, from Troy*

I can't argue with your logic.

It's a strong statement.

with that said, I will ask a few question that I would like everyone who can

to answer...and please...give these some thought before answering.

The way we look and live, even if just for personal preferances, makes a

statement in the minds of others, a statement that we are origional, that their isn't anyone else like "me".

What is the statement of a group of people that look identical, except for the thread on their pants?

Where is there a "statement of origionality" being made when everyone looks the same?

Does your "me" matter when no-one wonders to find out about you, because you look the same as everyone else?

It may be judgemental...but it's also a reality...a reality with a flip side to this particular coin

[Troy Spiral (13)]

isint every social click full of people who think they are legitimite while looking downward on those they feel dont muster up?

its a basic human trend, no? Ive seen the same thing go down in Rock circles on the sunset strip and in Bel Aire at private parties with the A-Listers I used to work for and even in drug dens up in Howard and Navarro in Pasadena..... no different than what your all discussing here.

Yep its an age-old issue. Just with different terminology.

[Fierce Critter]

<snip lots of good points snip>

Where is there a "statement of origionality" being made when everyone looks the same?

Does your "me" matter when no-one wonders to find out about you, because you look the same as everyone else?

It may be judgemental...but it's also a reality...a reality with a flip side to this particular coin

You're absolutely correct. I generally agree with a lot of what you said.

But I think it's up to the individual. It's what matters to them.

For some, it might not necessarily be about setting oneself apart from others. Me for instance. I could care less if goths/punks/preppies think I'm somethingorothernegativeorpositive when I'm dressed in corsets, platform boots & a dog collar. I'm dressed that way because it's a style that I enjoy wearing, that (at least I believe) flatters me and enhances my appearance. I don't care how much I blend in or stand out with the crowd I'm mixed into at a given time - it's not about them, it's about me.

But it took realizing that for me to drop the whole "I'm genuine and he/she's a poseur" bullshit attitude. I think the only true way to not conform is to do things entirely for your own benefit to your own comfort level. If that happens to include trying to put together an outfit & style based on something else you've already seen, so be it.

That said, I still believe in a dress code at CC. I may be comfortable in my own skin & style. But I still don't like it when space is taken up by people who are only there to gawk, laugh, point, and hit on chicks they think are easy. It's a matter of floorspace and respect, truthfully.

(FYI: When I was in the thick of my club-hopping years, I went EVERYWHERE in overall punk garb. St. Andrews, Hamtramck Pub, Wooly fucking Bully's in St. Clair Shores, etc. It's what I felt comfortable & attractive wearing. I don't just go to CC because others dress the same way as me when I'm "dressed up". I go there because I like the music & atmosphere. Just so happens a lot of other patrons dress in the same style.)

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think it's an instinctual thing. Something we still needed in our recent past but is slowly going away with time.

We want to be "our selfs", unique. Yet, we still feel the need to be part of the pack. So, we go with a unique look within a given unspoken range of looks.

We tend to breed along the same thought lines. I don't think things like "race" will ever go away. I think we are just going to move into a time with new races. In some distant future.. there is going to be a racial group with pale skin, dark eyes, straight black hair and the ability to brood like no one else.

I digress...

Until we can over come our deep instincts, we are doomed to have this conversation over and over...

[Sybil]

i really think poser and wannabe are just words used by high schoolers to even further segregate their groups and single out chosen outcasts since they really don't know the difference between their elbows and assholes.

The only term I'd think that would really fit anything is wannabe and even then it's a rare thing. I'm sure you've seen this example, someone who is dressing as another culture, pretends to act all about it, but it's so obvious he never was and never will be. Example... a small town country boy who gets his hands on some DMX and then is runnin around with his pants hangin below his ass saying he's hard and from the inner city. In montrose and clio, I ran into SO MANY FUCKIN IDIOT KIDS that would dress this way and say they hang at "The D" (Detroit) every weekend with their "cousin" or something...

I had a hard enough time walking down parts of 6 mile in goth clothes when i was stranded once and ocasionally got fucked with, there's no way they'd even make it 20 feet before they'd get jumped. That's just one example of what I think a wannabe would be.

But anything else, everyone wants to be something. It just depends on if they can find their place or not. Some of us may not be gothic here, some of us are, but hey if you're not goth, and everyone's ok with that, and you're ok with hanging around goths then.. you found your place, it's ok. now if you're trying to join in a group or sub culture and it's just simply not working, then you're closer to a wannabe... and if you go back to your normal hole after getting rejected by such group and claim to be the biggest thing in that group, then you're going off to being a poser.

But mostly, kids under 22 do this. I'm not trying to point anyone out here or trying to be age discrimatory but ya know, it takes about a couple decades of life to gain some experience enough to figure yourself out, you're not born knowing everything, nor does a number to indicate age gain any special knowledge each time it bumps up one. But i say 22 cuz at that time, you've been out of high school for a while, gotten a taste of real life, possibly some college, ect.

Before then (myself included) would run off saying we're the biggest sex gods and miss divas, with anyone my age now can look at them and think.. yeah right you inexperienced fuck, 20 minutes with me and you won't beable to walk for the rest of the night. But hey, kids will be kids i guess.

*claps*

..the last paragraph was my favorite..

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

"hit on chicks they think are easy"

umm...cuz most of them are.....I dated several girls that go to City....and all of them had their clothes off MINUTES after getting in the door of my apartment...and I never even had to look at them...much touch them...it might just be my luck though....

[Sybil]

Until we can over come our deep instincts, we are doomed to have this conversation over and over...

sadly, yep.

<--- I WANNABE an overcomer of myself.

[Fierce Critter]

"hit on chicks they think are easy"

umm...cuz most of them are.....I dated several girls that go to City....and all of them had their clothes off MINUTES after getting in the door of my apartment...and I never even had to look at them...much touch them...it might just be my luck though....

Nothing personal.

But I think the ratio of easy guys is just as high, if not higher, than the chicks. And it's the guys doing the hitting. So double-bad IMNSHO.

"Most?" Maybe 'cause you're hitting on obvious sluts. 'Cause when they're obvious, it's less work.

[Steven]

*ponders this point, as well as the others, from Troy*

I can't argue with your logic.

It's a strong statement.

with that said, I will ask a few question that I would like everyone who can

to answer...and please...give these some thought before answering.

The way we look and live, even if just for personal preferances, makes a

statement in the minds of others, a statement that we are origional, that their isn't anyone else like "me".

What is the statement of a group of people that look identical, except for the thread on their pants?

Where is there a "statement of origionality" being made when everyone looks the same?

Does your "me" matter when no-one wonders to find out about you, because you look the same as everyone else?

It may be judgemental...but it's also a reality...a reality with a flip side to this particular coin

question to yoru question:

whos trying to be original?

the american family: get your SUV, your 401K, 2.5 kids, two car attatchd garage, a degree, and a pension.

its a mold.

all the subsets - like Goths for example: its a group. a group of "Us" (myself not included) sepearate from them.

but its a group nonetheless. A group of orignals? a group of rebels? do get what Im gettting at?

[Steven]

I think it's an instinctual thing. Something we still needed in our recent past but is slowly going away with time.

We want to be "our selfs", unique. Yet, we still feel the need to be part of the pack. So, we go with a unique look within a given unspoken range of looks.

We tend to breed along the same thought lines. I don't think things like "race" will ever go away. I think we are just going to move into a time with new races. In some distant future.. there is going to be a racial group with pale skin, dark eyes, straight black hair and the ability to brood like no one else.

I digress...

Until we can over come our deep instincts, we are doomed to have this conversation over and over...

OK so next question then, as we seperate from one another...

are we trygin to be original, or are we just trying to be "right"????

you see if Im right, then your wrong.

and if your wrong - you sir are the source of my societal ills.

white man. black man. sugar man. democrat. republican. white collar. blue collar. immigrant. Native Son. Religious. Athiest. Absolutist. Relativist. .......

[Steven]

sadly, yep.

<--- I WANNABE an overcomer of myself.

me too babe.

which is the core of my faith - the WHY behind it.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Ya know I could be wrong on this, but I'm going to give a brief history on what, when, and why the word poser even came into the classroom.

Firstly, I don't recall anyone calling anyone a poser early on in high school or middle school for that matter. As a matter of fact, it was more of a term myself and other skaters used to define people who couldn't skate, and wanted to "hang" and bring their boards along. It was a lot of fun being called a skater fag by the same people who were captivated by our tricks. It was even more amusing when people had NO CLUE what the fuck we were doing when we started playing hacky sack.

While, I"m not trying to imply that the word poser as used in schools as well as hacky sack, came from skaters, that's just the way it was in Wyandotte. I'm not sure how it was in other schools, but I find it a bit ironic that they started calling other people posers, when they were basically copying off of us anyways. It seemed like almost overnight everyone was using the term poser, knew who Red Hot Chili Peppers (a well known band among skaters) was, knew who Nine Inch Nails was (mostly thanks in part to the release of closer bleh), and started using hacky sacks.

So from my perspective and experience (whether it's true or not), anyone who doesn't have the balls to do a rail slide down at least a 50 foot railing, is a poser for even using the word. I wouldn't be surprised if the word wannabe was also ripped off from poser as the Ebonics version, but who knows.... Gangsta rap started breaking ground around that time as well, so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[Scary Guy]

white man. black man.

Yellow man,

White man, black man, rip the system.

Sorry I've been up a while.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I don't know crunchy... We were calling people poser and wanna be back when I was in middle school in the early 80's.

[Steven]

Ya know I could be wrong on this, but I'm going to give a brief history on what, when, and why the word poser even came into the classroom.

Firstly, I don't recall anyone calling anyone a poser early on in high school or middle school for that matter. As a matter of fact, it was more of a term myself and other skaters used to define people who couldn't skate, and wanted to "hang" and bring their boards along. It was a lot of fun being called a skater fag by the same people who were captivated by our tricks. It was even more amusing when people had NO CLUE what the fuck we were doing when we started playing hacky sack.

While, I"m not trying to imply that the word poser as used in schools as well as hacky sack, came from skaters, that's just the way it was in Wyandotte. I'm not sure how it was in other schools, but I find it a bit ironic that they started calling other people posers, when they were basically copying off of us anyways. It seemed like almost overnight everyone was using the term poser, knew who Red Hot Chili Peppers (a well known band among skaters) was, knew who Nine Inch Nails was (mostly thanks in part to the release of closer bleh), and started using hacky sacks.

So from my perspective and experience (whether it's true or not), anyone who doesn't have the balls to do a rail slide down at least a 50 foot railing, is a poser for even using the word. I wouldn't be surprised if the word wannabe was also ripped off from poser as the Ebonics version, but who knows.... Gangsta rap started breaking ground around that time as well, so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Dude, no offense but I heard the word "poser" used by surfers and skaters in Jr high school in the 70's in So Cal...and in the mid 80's by rock bands on the strip in Hollywood....and by punkers at Oki Dog in the early 80's....and by straight edge kids during the same time.....

[creatureofthenyte]

The words Poser and Wannabe,

will only continue to matter,

IF we continue to pay attention to them....

[Steven]

The words Poser and Wannabe,

will only continue to matter,

IF we continue to pay attention to them....

right.

then we'll just switch to more appropriate and adult terms like "old money"......

i swear I think that sometimes we make the mistake of beleiving if we just dismiss some sort of formulaic "thing" that we've solved the problem but we never do.

in the entire history of man, somebody, needs to be under the feet of somebody else. its a sickness but we need it like oxygen apparently.

[Daniel]

Now, on the other hand, you have, in the past, admitted to me that sometimes you like to play devil's advocate and even argue a point you don't personally believe, just to "have some fun" or "mess with people". If that's what you're doing here, please, you're wasting your time. You're not making me think twice about my stance on negativity - if anything, your borderline attempts at getting a rise out of me are becoming boring, and I'm more likely to start ignoring you.

Generally, I find your method of posting to be eloquent and I admire the way you stand by your viewpoint. But knowing what I said above, I'm hardpressed to take you very seriously.

I have other reasons, but if you want to discuss them, we can go to PM's.

I'm not trying to bait you, FC. I'm simply trying to point out the inherent contradiction (or hypocrisy if you will) in you negatively judging one group of people for their negatively judging other people with a different criteria than you do. My point in not elaborating is actually a nod of respect in that I assumed, falsely perhaps, that you would see my point on your own. It isn't a thread derail I prefer to go down, really.

Now, that said, it seems you have some actual issues with me you'd like to address. If so, I am obviously more than happy to discuss them with you privately. Last I recall we were buddies and didn't have any beef with one another. It may have gone unnoticed by you, but you're one of the people I respect most highly here. If my historical and public lack of allegiance to DGN and the Troy Spiral Way has since then put you off me altogether, that's unfortunate. Though I should remind you that I have not posted here for over two years, and since then a lot has happened, and I can't really even claim to think or behave the same way as before. Call it life awakening experiences, if you will. I like to think I have made a very visible change in my posting habits, and while I am obviously somewhat provocative (though inadvertently) because I can be contrary, and am not afraid of controversy, I have made pretty strident efforts to not be openly inflammatory. I only play Devil's advocate, as in this thread for example, to encourage challenging discussion. I think, if you compare the old with the current the difference should be immediately obvious, since if I want to be inflammatory, holy shit can I get the bees stirred up. History has demonstrated this to be true. It is unfortunate you want to automatically round me up into the Obsequious character of years back, however. Not unreasonable, but unfortunate. I'll PM you as well, but I suppose the rest of the old crowd should probably read this too, since my return is probably confusing to a few people.

Privately I do sometimes use this sort of "poser" concept as a source of humor , both of the so-called posers and them that think they have some special key that allows them to be superior to the "posers".

But I've slowly realized none of us came preformed out of the womb "being ourselves" and its a learning process. If we aren't learning/growing in some way every day we aren't paying attention. We all learn by copying other ideas / styles / concepts. We may put 2 and 2 together in a unique way but so what.

Using the term "poser" as a tool to separate "us" from "them" is a mistake i think. One that i didn't realize for at least a decade. We are all in this deal together, like it or not there aren't any "others." If we take the time to understand other people, and i mean REALLY understand them, from start to finish, its hard to be overly judgmental.

In reality, this is closer to what I agree with. Except the last bit, because I think the more you know someone and understand them, the more refined your judgments become. Judgment will likely remain as you know people, what changes is the level of empathy applied to the judgment, and the level of refinement in the judgment. Bear in mind that judgmental behavior is not a problem, it is unfair and uninformed judgment that can be problematic.