Do We Live In An Oligarchy In Your Opinion

[phee]

Just wondering what people thought

oligarchy:

Pronunciation: 'ä-l&-"gär-kE, 'O-

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -chies

1 : government by the few

2 : a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes; also : a group exercising such control

-OR-

a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

-Government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families.

-Those making up such a government.

[freydis]

Looks like it to me.

People and groups with money can buy just about anything.....

[phee]

I would love to think that my voice has as much pull in the way things are run as a millionare or a billionare... or a large corperation.... but I have a feeling that voting is sort of cosmetic these days....

It would be somewhat naive of me to think that the country isn't run by the rich and the powerful only.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

No. I think we live in a Constitional Republic.

Thanks for calling those of us that disagree with you naive.

[phee]

No. I think we live in a Constitional Republic.

Thanks for calling those of us that disagree with you naive.

I didn't... I said it would be naive of me... I never mentioned anyone else, everyone else has their own experiences that may not be the same as mine, and can draw there conclusions on their own...

I think this may have been a result of defensive listening...

[freydis]

We may technically live in a constitutional republic, but its kind of hard to miss how much influenced the moneyed (be they special interest groups, lobbyists, or corporations) have on how laws do or dont come about. Money really does make a vast difference.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

but that does not make it an oligarchy. There are groups on the left and right tossing around lots of money. Money greases the wheels, but it is not the wheels.

Don't get me wrong.. we need campaign finance reform more than we need just about anything else... it's too damn hard for say.. someone like me to get into politics.. but I could do it if I had the money to run a campaign.

[phee]

I would say that it is not an absolute oligarchy, the government will shift back and forth on the scale... moving closer to and further away from the concept as well as other forms of government (socialism, facism, etc...) I am saying that the way things are right now, it seems to be closest to on oligarchy... BUT... this may have changed recently as the Legislative branch has changed it's power structure recently. But definitly 2000 - 2006...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

So, if the Republicans have control of Congress it's an oligarchy but if the Democrats are in power it's not?

I don't buy that. I really think most of the problems we have faced of the last 7 years can be boiled down to people who can't get over the fact that they lost an election. Gore lost and made a fiasco of the 2000 election and his rabid supporters have never gotten over it.

Rampant hate and unwillingness to accept loosing. The inability for anyone to accept comprimise. We have become a nation of closeminded assholes.

[phee]

So, if the Republicans have control of Congress it's an oligarchy but if the Democrats are in power it's not?

I don't buy that. I really think most of the problems we have faced of the last 7 years can be boiled down to people who can't get over the fact that they lost an election. Gore lost and made a fiasco of the 2000 election and his rabid supporters have never gotten over it.

Rampant hate and unwillingness to accept loosing. The inability for anyone to accept comprimise. We have become a nation of closeminded assholes.

I didn't say that...

I think it became an Oligarchy because of the way the power structure and political behaviors built by these Republicans in paticular... Halliburton is a good example of this in reguards to Cheney, and Tom Delay being another example... And I didn't say that it did change, I said it might have changed. If all the same people were in power there is no chance that it might have changed.

I don't think the most of the problems that have happened in the last 7 years can be blamed on Gore supporters, I don't see the Iraq war or the housing market issues having a direct corilation to Gore supportes, or any of the other major problems that the government has been responsible for (Fireing of US attorneys, the bribery, healthcare issues)... If there is a clear route to Gore supporters I can honestly say I have never seen or heard of it.

I do agree with the last sentiment... I do believe that the nation has become a bunch of closed minded assholes.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

But.. those problems you mentions.. some have no connection with the government at all.

The housing market crashing is due to over speculation by builders and lenders. I actually work in this area now and listen to what the people who deal with this stuff on a regular basis are saying. Banks were too eager to lend, builders have built a 2 year supply of homes when normally they only have a 6 month supply. Thats not the governments fault.. thats the peoples fault.

The Fireing of the US attorneys... yeah that can be faulted to the Dem's. They are making something from nothing. The president has the right to fire anyone in the Justice department he wants to, for any reason. Thats how the Law has always been. If he wants them fired , they get fired. The Dem's are on a witch hunt fishing for anything they can find to fuck over the republicans. They are so focused on this witch hunt that they have forgotten all the promises they made us before the last mid term election that put them in power.

Health care has been an issue for years. long before 2000. no one has any idea how to fix the problem that would actually work. Well, they do, but partisan politics or reality always kills those ideas. People want Universal healthcare... noone wants to give up thier life to have it. Over half your check going to taxes turns a great many people off.

Bribes are new? Only republicans takes bribes? What about that 90k in a freezer of a Dem?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I will note that the Dem darling is mixed up with the Chinese again... so familure...

[phee]

Well... a debate could be a good thing if we can keep it civil...

So lets talk about your points...

But.. those problems you mentions.. some have no connection with the government at all.

The war in Iraq was implimented by the President which is the Executive branch of the Government

The housing market crashing is due to over speculation by builders and lenders. I actually work in this area now and listen to what the people who deal with this stuff on a regular basis are saying. Banks were too eager to lend, builders have built a 2 year supply of homes when normally they only have a 6 month supply. Thats not the governments fault.. thats the peoples fault.

If you re-read my post you will see that I never actually said this had anything to do with the Government, I was responding to the claim that:

I really think most of the problems we have faced of the last 7 years can be boiled down to people who can't get over the fact that they lost an election. Gore lost and made a fiasco of the 2000 election and his rabid supporters have never gotten over it.

I was simply stating that this problem did not have to do with Gore supporters... I never cited blame to anyone, just said it wasn't their fault.

The Fireing of the US attorneys... yeah that can be faulted to the Dem's. They are making something from nothing. The president has the right to fire anyone in the Justice department he wants to, for any reason. Thats how the Law has always been. If he wants them fired , they get fired. The Dem's are on a witch hunt fishing for anything they can find to fuck over the republicans.

So if I am reading this correctly, you are saying that the firing of US attorneys by the President is actually the Democrats fault here:

"The Fireing of the US attorneys... yeah that can be faulted to the Dem's"

That really doesn't make any sense...

But you are correct later, no one in this thread has claimed that what happened was against the law, or the way it has "always been" it was simply stated that it was a problem. As far as the "witch hunt" comment which I believe was also used by yourself in the case of the "Republican Senator Airport Gay Sex Scandal," Think about for a moment what this war a reaction to... People being fired seemingly for Political party reasons, that seems to be more of a witch hunt to me... If there was a Democrat in the office who fired a bunch of district Attorneys for not going along party lines... I believe the "witchhunt" angle would be used by you in the same way... only this time it would be the Democrats fucking over the Republicans for firing them, instead of you defending the Bush Administration by basically saying (Paraphrasing): "It's the Democrats fault because they got upset about their party being attacked and starting 'witch hunting' in return"

They are so focused on this witch hunt that they have forgotten all the promises they made us before the last mid term election that put them in power. Health care has been an issue for years. long before 2000. no one has any idea how to fix the problem that would actually work.

The question here is has the healthcare in this country gotten worse, better, or remained the same. My observation is basically that it has gotten worse. Is the government responsible for this? no... Did they have the power to make things better and chose not to? that's the way it looks to me.

Well, they do, but partisan politics or reality always kills those ideas. People want Universal healthcare... noone wants to give up thier life to have it. Over half your check going to taxes turns a great many people off.

This I agree with.

Bribes are new? Only republicans takes bribes? What about that 90k in a freezer of a Dem?

I am not sure where anyone said that bribes are new or Republican by nature... In fact I don't think there was anywhere in any of my posts I actually stated that Democrats are good and Republicans are bad. I basically said that in my opinion the way that the government is run right now seems to me like an Oligarchy... I actually at no point said that I think it will change, I simply said that now there is a chance that it might change, now that the political landscape is different.

There does seem to be a defensive posture towards Republicans here, and I by no means actually think that the party in itself is bad, after all it is an organization of people... and the people are what I have a problem with, and they happen to associate themselves with the current Republican party.. and that is not the "parties" fault.

And yeah... Hillary scares me to...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Implemented with Congressional approval.

Your reading it wrong. I am saying the response by the Democrats is a waste of time as illegal was done.

As for the Congressman being arrested, that is another story, as the cop in question should be arrested for breaking Constitutional law, which last I knew superceded all other law.

and yes, I use Witch hunt alot one I talk about the Democratic party. They have done nothing since they came to have control of congress but launch investigation after investigation into stuff that should never have been investigated. I said the same things about the Republicans in the late 90's. but you didn;t know me then.

and really, I don't think the political landscape had changed. Republicans and Democrats are just doing the same old same old. until we get rid of this two party system it will continue to be more of the same. Witch hunt after which hunt... laws that keep the same people in power... and mindless drones that actually listen to campaign speachs rather than reading voting records.

[creatureofthenyte]

I don't know if this applies here, but the more I think about it, the more I think that financial contributions to politicians' campaign funds, could possibly be viewed as a legal form of bribery. This could fit into this topic, I think, albeit a vague fit if at all...

[Hellion]

The way this country has gone,I feel like the government owns my body.

[Fierce Critter]

<-- looks around...

I dunno. Looks like a house to me...

[SuZQZ]

Just wondering what people thought

oligarchy:

Pronunciation: 'ä-l&-"gär-kE, 'O-

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -chies

1 : government by the few

2 : a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes; also : a group exercising such control

-OR-

a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

-Government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families.

-Those making up such a government.

Seems more oligarchy than democracy lately. Has nothing necessarily to do with one political party vs another, though. To me it is more that those with the money have the power. Most seem to choose to use that power for selfish gains rather than for the greater good. Of course, as per our Constitution, that is their right, as it should be. Just seems to be a shame sometimes when so many positives could be achieved. Just my opinion and I certainly would never say it has to be anyone elses.

[Fierce Critter]

Seriously...

Just an observation.

Sure, I believe that every sitting president has had people working for him that - whether known to him or not - have taken liberties with the way they run the country. I liked Clinton, but I'm willing to believe there were plenty shenanigans going on the public wouldn't approve of.

However... I have to look at the overall condition of the country at the time each president is in office - the overall happiness/content of the nation's people - to judge whether or not the overall result of all the behind-the-scenes BS mixed with what we really see is good/bad harmful/helpful.

The condition/happiness/contentment level of the country under Bush = suck. The condition/happiness/contentment level under Clinton - rocked.

And just to show that this isn't partisan/liberal one-sidedness thinking at work - the overall condition/happiness/contentment level under Reagan was pretty fucking good from what I recall.

Not everything is perfect/bad/etc under any given administration. But I do think you can look at things in a wide, general way and get a sense of whether a sitting administration is suck or good.

And with that, I will actually agree with Phee's original statement - I think it is naive to let yourself think things haven't been controlled by a select few under this administration. And things suck. Even if things were controlled by a select few under Clinton and Reagan - and Lincoln and Washington and Taft and Fillmore and Arthur for that matter - maybe those "select few" sometimes have the good of the country in their hearts - and not the good of their own fucking wallets.

[angusfergus]

Our current system of government is a polity not an oligarchy.

An oligarchy is rule by the rich, in which poor people have zero say.

Which is the opposite of direct democracy, in which all decisions are made by public vote; think California referendums.

A polity is a democratic system which uses a governmental assembly which all citizens are eligible to be a part of.

[nilhil_glory]

do i think we live in an oligarchy ...technically no

but i do believe that we live in a society where no matter whom we elect our policies will be shaped by certain heads of industry and the money those companies and execs throw at officials to finance the campaigns. In return for that official getting elected.... the companies get what they want via government spending and semi-dictated policy

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'm not 100% clear on what the initial post was getting at. I think its now become "is the current goverment an Oligarchy?"

If that is the intent I'd say we are still very firmly in a republican form of government, that has an executive branch that has consolidated its power beyond any previous levels its historically had. Basically being pushed through by Bush & pals. I think it makes the executive branch far to powerful and is a bad move. But, there are still very widely held , fair (or mostly fair) elections in this country which i think will keep us far away from any true 3rd world style Ologarchy for many ages to come.

Being a student of political and military history especially from a "man on the street" level, thinks overall are very good for us in this country in terms of at least our FREEDOM to influence policy. True he who has the gold can make the rules more effectively than we that don't have the gold. BUT, we do have the OPTION of doing so, as opposed to a true oligarchy where its basically just "the good ol' boys" that are in the club that get to make the rules or have any say on how they are implemented.

[Shade Everdark]

I wonder if it wouldn't be more accurate to say that we live in a plutocracy, rather than a simple oligarchy.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not with the ability we have to move up the ladder, so to speak. There are far too many people that started out dirt poor that are now wealthy and powerfull for me to buy this country as a plutocracy.

If anything.. I would lean more toward a Timocracy.

[Scary Guy]

We live in an a forced Idiocracy (I just wanted to say that word) controlled by a pseudo monocracy run by an oligarchy making an increasing totalitarian fascist regime under the guise of "freedom".