I Know I Asked This Before But..

[angusfergus]

pomba - I would love if everyone had health care coverage of the highest level. I don't think universal health care, as everyone thinks of it, will ever work. As long as it's a "for profit" business and as long as insurance companys, with a special interst on HMOs have a hand in it... it's never goingto work. Handing the reins to the peoples health care to the government won't be any better. It only works half assed in the countrys that have adopted it.

In MY view, not saying it is right or better than anyone elses, what we need to do is get rid of the insurance companys. First, we look at just how much the average employer pays for health insurace and workmans comp insurance. They still pay that much per employee, but into a national health care fund. Companys that make drugs in the US would be required to give them to the health department as actual cost but could sell them internationally for a fixed profit. Not a large one, but enough to help off set the cost of making them... any "profit" would go back into the health system. Medical procedures would be charged against the National health fund, at a realistic cost without profit. Elective cosmetic procedures would come otu of a person's own pocket, with a reasonable profit... into the national health fund.

We could make it work. We would have to change everything. We would have to stop trying to have our cake and eat it too.

Under that scenario, new drugs to treat existing disorders would be a rarity. People who need meds but can't take the ones used for their disorder could never be treated.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I didn;t say my idea was perfect. I know there are holes in it. It was after all a near midnight stoner idea... but it could work with tweaking to the plan.

If we get enough people's input we could come up with something that would work. We would have to work together and forget that political partys exist at all.

So.. How do you propose we could fix that hole in the plan?

[Fierce Critter]

I don't smoke pot, do any kind of recreational drugs, and for the past 10 months, have also stopped drinking alcohol (never was a heavy drinker to start with, save the occasional social binge).

I take:

Synthroid for my metabolism - without it, I was cold - in FLORIDA - couldn't lose weight, and my hair stopped growing.

Singulair for allergies - without it, I can't have one pet, much less 14. Not one. And I would suffer constant facial explosions that sometimes would have me in tears due to not being able to breathe - before I had pets.

Wellbutrin for depression - before I found Wellbutrin, which I pretty much researched myself when the half dozen or so other meds my MD tried on me didn't work - I was suffering from a debilitating clinical depression so severe, the only thing that kept me from being bedridden was I could sit on my ass in front of a computer chatting on DGN all day - to the point where I would sit there refreshing over and over again hoping for a new response to read and reply to. And the trash in my house - in 4 different houses - reached knee-level in some places, some of it layered with cat shit and piss. Once I realized what was going on wasn't simple laziness or lack of motivation, I tried - I tried so hard to cure myself. I tried to just break out of it. I tried to fix it, like I seem to be able to fix everything and everyone around me. I've always been able to fix things. People. I couldn't fix myself, and I couldn't understand it. I'm smart. I'm not, by nature, lazy. I am perfectionist to a decently controlled degree. Why couldn't I snap out of it?

Because clinical depression is a physiological condition wherein the brain doesn't function correctly. The brain - the CPU of the human body - MY CPU - ceased to function correctly. Wellbutrin doesn't make me high. It doesn't give me super-human energy. But it does reset my brain functions so that I can get out of bed. I'm not yet back to where I was before things in my head got fubared. There are outside influences keeping me on eggshells and anxious and mentally and emotionally exhausted, so recovery has been slow. But with Wellbutrin, I can see a piece of paper on the floor - and pick it up and throw it out. I can do 2 stacks of dishes out of 3. I can wash clothes every couple of weeks or so. I can brush my teeth again.

I.do.not.take.drugs.lightly. I have a major problem with people who resort to recreational drugs for fun. Buy a fucking Milton Bradley board game and play it, go bowling, feed squirrels. Fuck pot, coke, meth, all of it. I do not take half the prescriptions that doctors have prescribed for me in the past, opting instead for bed rest, aspirin, chicken soup.

But damn anyone who would say the things for which I am medicated can all be cured by "pulling myself up by my bootstraps and just getting over 'it'."

Fuck you. You don't know what I've been through. You won't make me feel guilty for taking meds so my life can be normal. Not high, not falsely ecstatic, not a breeze. Normal.

("You" being used in a general sense.)

[Onyx]

I don't smoke pot, do any kind of recreational drugs, and for the past 10 months, have also stopped drinking alcohol (never was a heavy drinker to start with, save the occasional social binge).

I take:

Synthroid for my metabolism - without it, I was cold - in FLORIDA - couldn't lose weight, and my hair stopped growing.

Singulair for allergies - without it, I can't have one pet, much less 14. Not one. And I would suffer constant facial explosions that sometimes would have me in tears due to not being able to breathe - before I had pets.

Wellbutrin for depression - before I found Wellbutrin, which I pretty much researched myself when the half dozen or so other meds my MD tried on me didn't work - I was suffering from a debilitating clinical depression so severe, the only thing that kept me from being bedridden was I could sit on my ass in front of a computer chatting on DGN all day - to the point where I would sit there refreshing over and over again hoping for a new response to read and reply to. And the trash in my house - in 4 different houses - reached knee-level in some places, some of it layered with cat shit and piss. Once I realized what was going on wasn't simple laziness or lack of motivation, I tried - I tried so hard to cure myself. I tried to just break out of it. I tried to fix it, like I seem to be able to fix everything and everyone around me. I've always been able to fix things. People. I couldn't fix myself, and I couldn't understand it. I'm smart. I'm not, by nature, lazy. I am perfectionist to a decently controlled degree. Why couldn't I snap out of it?

Because clinical depression is a physiological condition wherein the brain doesn't function correctly. The brain - the CPU of the human body - MY CPU - ceased to function correctly. Wellbutrin doesn't make me high. It doesn't give me super-human energy. But it does reset my brain functions so that I can get out of bed. I'm not yet back to where I was before things in my head got fubared. There are outside influences keeping me on eggshells and anxious and mentally and emotionally exhausted, so recovery has been slow. But with Wellbutrin, I can see a piece of paper on the floor - and pick it up and throw it out. I can do 2 stacks of dishes out of 3. I can wash clothes every couple of weeks or so. I can brush my teeth again.

I.do.not.take.drugs.lightly. I have a major problem with people who resort to recreational drugs for fun. Buy a fucking Milton Bradley board game and play it, go bowling, feed squirrels. Fuck pot, coke, meth, all of it. I do not take half the prescriptions that doctors have prescribed for me in the past, opting instead for bed rest, aspirin, chicken soup.

But damn anyone who would say the things for which I am medicated can all be cured by "pulling myself up by my bootstraps and just getting over 'it'."

Fuck you. You don't know what I've been through. You won't make me feel guilty for taking meds so my life can be normal. Not high, not falsely ecstatic, not a breeze. Normal.

("You" being used in a general sense.)

Well said.

You just put your finger on what bothers me most about gripes about medication. (and I'm not even referring to this thread or anyone on this board at all) I seem to see that a lot everywhere. It's as if they would rather pat you on the back for being miserable and not taking medicine that is clearly helpful, rather than living a full healthy life and taking a few carefully prescribed meds.

It seems to be some want people to feel guilt for taking medication or giving meds to children - funny thing is, usually the ones who have a problem with it are those who have misused drugs themselves recreationally

Very often those who do comment are those who are still using alcohol and drugs for "fun", usually to excess and in dangerous combinations.

Interesting.

[Fierce Critter]

Yeah, sorry if I got bitchy there.

But I get REAL REAL tired of dealing best as I can with all the BULLSHIT life throws at me/us/mine without shooting up or smoking up or popping pills to "relax" or etc. only to be told I'm in some way wrong for taking something that truly, honestly helps me when nothing else did/could/would.

I keep my mouth shut ordinarily about my true feelings about recreational drug use. To each their own. I know how good it can feel to get shitfaced drunk once in a great while. But I get real, real sick of hearing people who I know spend money regularly on this drug, that drug and the other tell me I'm the one who needs to find a different way to cope.

Grr.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Yeah, sorry if I got bitchy there.

But I get REAL REAL tired of dealing best as I can with all the BULLSHIT life throws at me/us/mine without shooting up or smoking up or popping pills to "relax" or etc. only to be told I'm in some way wrong for taking something that truly, honestly helps me when nothing else did/could/would.

I keep my mouth shut ordinarily about my true feelings about recreational drug use. To each their own. I know how good it can feel to get shitfaced drunk once in a great while. But I get real, real sick of hearing people who I know spend money regularly on this drug, that drug and the other tell me I'm the one who needs to find a different way to cope.

Grr.

You're right about that FC. One of my nearest and dearest friends has been on an assortment of anti-depressants for the last ten years. It's a love/hate relationship she has with them. They fix her. That's good. They fix her well enough that she can go to work, and have a social life, and live like normal people do. She hates them because they're expensive, and they have terrible side effects for her, namely insomnia. She needs her medication. I've seen her with meds and I've seen her without and far and away, she's better with.

I actually think she could eliminate her depedence on the meds, eventually, and with alot more help than what she's getting now. I'm talking ten more years from now. But, until then, she needs to live her life, and these help her do that. No disrespect there.

What worries me though is this overall trend, this trend to super medicate every damn person so that we're numb, or placid, or happy. I become particularly concerned when it's children. Some have a genuine medical need for medicine. Some are just patches on bigger problems, and those are the types that worry me.

[Dollardave]

My new friend is on meds big time.....ceraquil dunno how to spell it......but.....tis for nut cases....I looked it up.

And some anti depressents......and some anti psychotics........god. Is he that crazy??? Mood stablizers.....traquillizers......

My other friends kid is on the same exact crap at age 10. Why is everyone crazy?

A long time ago people got by without all this......was it the butt whippings that kept them in line or......?

I just don't get it. His girl breaks up with him and it sends him over the edge......most of us just drown our sorrows in a tub of ice cream and get on with our lives.......ya know?

I used to be on seroquel it didn't work for me so I'm back on zyprexa now have been for years.

[Steven]

not everyone is working form a guilt based platform.

Some of us DO recognize the exception.

Some of us have also been on both sides of the argument.

[Daevion]

Aside from the usual over-the-counter stuff I don't need to take any meds.....besides they would interfere with my drinking.

[Homicidalheathen]

LOL! Hey thats my excuse!

Aside from the usual over-the-counter stuff I don't need to take any meds.....besides they would interfere with my drinking.

[Shade Everdark]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when somene decides to finnally invade this country we'll be SO friggen ripe for the pickens because wev'e bred out our backbone and identity and have inbred weakness and faithlessness with no foundation to fall back upon on a large scale.

Interesting that you put weakness and faithlessness so close together. Personally, I'd like to think faithlessness is a good thing. But this is probably not the place to get into another theological argument.

[angusfergus]

I didn;t say my idea was perfect. I know there are holes in it. It was after all a near midnight stoner idea... but it could work with tweaking to the plan.

If we get enough people's input we could come up with something that would work. We would have to work together and forget that political partys exist at all.

So.. How do you propose we could fix that hole in the plan?

Something that would encourage companies to produce new treatments, not encourage them to overuse old ones. Such as a 'fixed profit' for DOMESTIC sales and uncapped exportation. There has to be some incentive for the drug companies to perform the R&D that leads to new, better treatments.

[Steven]

Interesting that you put weakness and faithlessness so close together. Personally, I'd like to think faithlessness is a good thing. But this is probably not the place to get into another theological argument.

Faith has nothing to do with theology Dark.....faith is simply what we beleive in. I was not talking about the God trip or religion at all, I was just talkign abotu people in America and our everyday reality....

To me it seems that in this day and age that is so dependent on relativism and a lack of absolutes wrapped up nicely in the breakdown of the american family and the re-christening of what we used to formally call "good"....

well that does not leave us much to beleive in does it?

and when you dont beleive you are unfulfilled and without purpose,

which leads to depression, and more meds, and more unbeleif.

which erodes, and creates a foundational weakness.

[Rayne]

There are some people (yes, even children) who need it.

It's no secret one of my kids is psychologically ill. She's on meds and in therapy. She has been in therapy since she was 3. Meds since 5. She's 8 now.

... She needs it.

I do what I can to help my kids. I'm not going to sit back and shrug it off.

[Steven]

There are some people (yes, even children) who need it.

It's no secret one of my kids is psychologically ill. She's on meds and in therapy. She has been in therapy since she was 3. Meds since 5. She's 8 now.

... She needs it.

I do what I can to help my kids. I'm not going to sit back and shrug it off.

and you shouldent Rayne.

of course there are exceptions, which I have always said in my anti med rants (laura was medicated too - and she needed it)

[Homicidalheathen]

Its so sad. I had a grown man crying in my arms last night.......

He went from being a good student in college.....having a sucessful relationship....nice house.......to this? A tiny apartment and a job he hates.....

All from depression.

And he is on everything and its not helping. They just upped his meds and he sleeps waaay to much.

I don't know what to do. I get down too but usually snap out of it in like a week......this has been going on for near a year now.

I invite him out but he wont go.....he just stays home.

He says when he is in a relationship he is happy but no one wants him when he is like this......makes me sad. I do love him and hope for the best.....but its bringing me down too. Just too much depressed talk. I have my own problems right now its hard to be there for him all the time.

[Destroit]

pomba - I would love if everyone had health care coverage of the highest level. I don't think universal health care, as everyone thinks of it, will ever work. As long as it's a "for profit" business and as long as insurance companys, with a special interst on HMOs have a hand in it... it's never goingto work. Handing the reins to the peoples health care to the government won't be any better. It only works half assed in the countrys that have adopted it.

In MY view, not saying it is right or better than anyone elses, what we need to do is get rid of the insurance companys. First, we look at just how much the average employer pays for health insurace and workmans comp insurance. They still pay that much per employee, but into a national health care fund. Companys that make drugs in the US would be required to give them to the health department as actual cost but could sell them internationally for a fixed profit. Not a large one, but enough to help off set the cost of making them... any "profit" would go back into the health system. Medical procedures would be charged against the National health fund, at a realistic cost without profit. Elective cosmetic procedures would come otu of a person's own pocket, with a reasonable profit... into the national health fund.

We could make it work. We would have to change everything. We would have to stop trying to have our cake and eat it too.

Ditto about the insurance companies. When my mom was little there were no insurance companies for health care....PERIOD. You would go to the doctor, pay a one time LOW fee for health care (low because you don't have the variables of the doctors who can get away with charging the insurance companies 40 dollars for an aspirin applied to your bill) and then you'd be on your way and on with life. I think there should be laws regulating how much profit med/health companies CAN keep and it should be a good legitimate amount...but not the massive price that the CEOs of Big Pharma are making currently. Then any other extra cash should go back into the health care system...not people's pockets IMO. I likes yer theories, Gaf.

Also...why are people on so much meds? Because people are raised now to be weak and feeble, not strong and independant. People aren't given any direction or shape in life by their parents, fuck they're hardly even "raised" now. You see all these mother-kid best friend kind of relationships and that IS NOT HEALTHY for children. The children become spoiled and can't make it in the real world, causing depression. But since they were spoiled they all expect a "quick fix" to get over it (i.e. drugs), which is wrong.

Nobody should be medicated for mental illness...unless they actually have one.

Depression is not a mental illness...it's an emotion. It's an emotion that we're supposed to FEEL, that's why it happens. It's called build a bridge, cry a nice babbling brook underneath it, light a joint, eat some Ben 'n' Jerry's, say "I'm better than this fucking weakness" and then get the hell over it.

I do understand that some people are chronically depressed...but I also understand that MOST people on anti-depressants are just normal people who get sad here and there just as you SHOULD.

[Fierce Critter]

"Being depressed" is a emotional state.

"Suffering from clinical depression" is a physiological condition caused by several different ways of the brain's processes misfiring.

"Smoking a joint" is more acceptable than taking a properly prescribed medication?

:rolleyes:

And too many people do medicate themselves with Ben & Jerry's. It's called obesity. Funny, actually, to find you recommending such a thing, considering what you yourself have been through and what you've had to say about fat people in other threads. I really wouldn't recommend sitting around smoking pot and binging on ice cream to a depressed person - emotionally or clinically.

You know, here's another thing. My depression never involved sadness. My serotonin levels were fine, thank you very much. It was my dopamine and norepinephrine that were fucked.

For those who don't know - a quick explanation of my personal type of depression & treatment.

Prior to 2002, I was an active, productive person. I maintained a nice home, made 3 meals a day for myself and my husband, did a lucrative eBay business that actually had me working in some capacity 6 days a week. I could be anal and perfectionist. I enjoyed going out and doing things.

Then after 2002, I slipped into a condition that I did not immediately recognize as depression. Over the next 3.5 years, my motivation and energy levels basically fell to nil. I quit cooking. I quit cleaning. I suffered from insomnia, then would sleep from early morning until midafternoon. I quit working. It became very difficult to get me to leave the house, yet I was not agoraphobic.

Both my husband and I were stymied. We both thought I just "got lazy". Depression never entered our minds.

We thought maybe I was just down because of having moved to North Carolina. So when we moved back to Michigan in 2005, we thought everything would go back to normal.

And it didn't. And things got worse. Every house we'd lived in (numbering 3) in North Carolina had been messy. But our apartment in Michigan was the worst. Literally knee-deep in trash in some places. I rarely went out. Nothing changed.

I don't remember exactly what clued me in that I might be clinically depressed. Once the thought occurred, I was still unconvinced. I mean, I wasn't sad. Never once did suicide enter my thoughts. I was capable of enjoyment.

And prior to this, I had been able to "fix" myself and everyone around me. I was the first person to help Jon learn to cope with his anxiety disorder through breathing exercises & other methods. I maintained a referee-like position in the family that kept mother, father, and sisters from being at each other's throats. I considered going back to school for a degree in psychology.

But no matter what I did, I couldn't "fix" myself. And it was maddening. Why, when I saw a piece of trash on the floor, could I not just bend over, pick it up, and put it in a trash can? Why couldn't I get myself out to have fun on the weekends? Why wouldn't I decorate for Halloween, always a major event in my life?

You recognize a problem, you can fix it, right? Just pick up that trash! Just put on some makeup and go to the club! It sounds so, so easy, even in retrospect.

But I couldn't. And as Jon put it when we finally had the conversation where we realized I might be clinically depressed, "It's like you've gone through life fixing everything and everyone around you, and then God said, 'here, Camille, you're so smart? Here's depression. Fix that.'"

Joke's on me. Ms. Smartypants-problem-solver.

Long story short, I went through several methods of screening/testing to see if I was, indeed, clinically depressed. And on every one, I came up severely depressed. The questionnaires/tests/interviews were exhaustive. And without fail, I was consistently amazed at how the things I was reading/answering were exactly what I'd been going through.

I started seeing a counselor. I'd seen her before, in the early 90's when I had some emotional problems adjusting to a new job situation. I saw her then for about 6 months, and at the end, both of us were able to say, "I don't need counseling anymore - I'm fine now." And I was.

My counselor is not a psychiatrist, and couldn't prescribe meds. But with her and my MD combined to combat this, we went from counseling to counseling with medication.

For the period of about 9 months to a year, my MD tried several different meds on me. I'm smart enough to do my own research, and I learned that it took time, sometimes as long as a month, for some medications to kick in. So I was patient. And through all of them, nothing at all changed. I got really tired of the trial-and-error method, so I got the book "depression for dummies" out of the library. And skipped immediately to the chapter on medications.

That's where I learned that there are different types of clinical/physiological depression, caused by problems with different brain chemicals. Quick primer on brain chemistry & depression drugs.

There are three main chemicals your brain processes which are relevent to this discussion. They are serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine.

Serotonin helps regulate mood, body temperature, sleep, and sexuality among other things.

Norephinephrine helps regulate alertness & arousal amongst other things. Very very generalized, it affects your being able to react & act.

Dopamine helps with thinking, motivation, activity, and attention, among many other things.

UBER-SIMPLIFICATION (if you want the whole story, read Wikipedia's very good entry on clinical depression ). These chemicals have to move from one area to the other in the brain. They are "transmitted" and then "taken up" from one place to another.

In some brains, there is a problem with the transmitters "re-uptaking" the chemicals before they make their way to the receptors. For this sort of problem, the types of medications that are prescribed are called "re-uptake inhibitors". They help calm the over-eager transmitters down and keep them from grabbing back what they're supposed to be sending.

In other brains, sometimes factors work that break down these chemicals, so they're too weak to do the jobs they're meant to do.

There are medications that help with the breakdown or re-uptake of these chemicals, and they have cute little names like SSRI's, MAOI's, tricyclics, etc. I'm not going to get into listing all the different drugs, etc, but here's an excellent page on the subject, if you care.

So, back to me. I read this. And I realize that the medications my MD has been prescribing all involve regulating serotonin and norepinephrine. And when I read what those and dopamine regulate/do, I realize there's nothing wrong with my serotonin levels, but that my symptoms DEFINITELY involve norepinephrine and dopamine. And I do further research, and learn that Wellbutrin is one of the most prescribed for this particular mix of chemistry FUBAR.

And I go to the doc. And she puts me on Wellbutrin. And I take my first pill, still figuring "I'll belieive it when I feel it" after so many other things have failed.

And it didn't take 48 hours for me to work. Not just it - ME. Within the next couple of days, I was at a level of activity, interest, and energy like I hadn't seen in years.

It doesn't make me high. It doesn't make me excessively energetic. It doesn't make me euphoric. It makes me normal. Blissfully, gloriously normal.

Things are not perfect. There are other influences in my life that I can't get into that would bring the strongest person to their knees. This has had a direct effect on my mood, sleep, energy and motivation for the past couple years while I've been working on recovery from depression. Some people might cry to their doctor for things like Xanax or Valium to deal with the stress - I just plain deal with it. I don't need to medicate that, because I can put out the effort to work on it myself.

But without the Wellbutrin, I am absolutely, positively sure that I would be in extreme trouble at this point. I would be any combination of bedridden, sick, possibly even divorced - and possibly, dead. Not from want of suicide due to being sad. Just dead from inability to do the basic activities that keep the average person alive. I would have slowly and steadily declined to a point where excessive sleep and inactivity would lead to eternal sleep.

Again, things aren't perfect. Things still get messy. I'm still not up to the level of motivation and energy that I was before the depression fell full-force. I'm hoping that with an improvement of other life-impacting factors, things will improve. I'm also not on the highest doseage of the Wellbutrin. But I am not going to ask for an increase until I see if these other things affecting me improve and then help me finally really be able to recover.

I was never sad. I never wanted to die. If I had "sat around and smoked a joint, cried, and ate ice cream," well, I'd still be bedridden, knee-deep in shit, apathetic - and even more fat and a pothead to boot.

No thanks. I'll take my tablet a day, forego the ice cream (not all ice cream, duh) and pot and organize the silverware drawer instead.

The end.

[Homicidalheathen]

I am tired of being supportive. Not to be cold but, I have kids and a family for the B.S. I dumped him. Kudos to me.

And I had a good time with someone else. So double kudos. And this one is SANE!!!

I really hope this young man figures out why he is so unhappy and unstable, not financially but he can't maintain relationships......whatever the case, he won't have me to figure it out on/with anymore.

[Homicidalheathen]

Well I am happy to say.......my buddy is OFF THE MEDS!!!

But this is the strange thing......he claims the divorce is what triggered it.

I don't understand people who can't handle a breakup without meds.

Personally I get depressed for various reasons......but a break up has never made me totally lose it.

I hope he will be ok now.........?

Cause he is going to undergo a total life change in a year......move.......college......work load.........hope he will be ok.

That seems harder to take than a breakup to me.

[Fierce Critter]

It's odd, sometimes, what will trigger depression.

I thought that our move to NC 'caused' mine. It definitely was a huge catalyst in throwing me into full-blown, out-of-my-control depression. But I think I was on my way before we moved.

I've been feeling so much better lately, it briefly went through my mind to not renew my prescription this week. But I'm going to wait until I can wean myself off with a psychiatrist monitoring me.

[Daevion]

I could something for this insomnia

[nilhil_glory]

I havent taken prescription medication in 3 years for anything

the most seriouse thing iface is i get strep throught every year...

and with me it always blows over in about 2 weeks

so i never initally worry about it

i refuse to take any meds unless im on the verge of death itself

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

I use to take Zoloft. Its an anxiety med, and they prescribed it for depression. and that was back when they just gave you a dose, instead of slowly increasing the amount you have to take. now i can't take anti-depression meds, whether i needed them or not. Nothing works, or it does, and my body blisters from the inside out, cuz i'm allergic. that's great.... i feel happy, but in an insane amount of pain. so... i use my depression for other things, like being creative. I tap into it. i don't like taking even Aspirin, or anything like that... i stick to my coffee, and kool-aids... and sodas. yeah...

[Homicidalheathen]

He may not be depressed anymore but damn is he back to his annoying self lol but I love him that way.

When he is depressed he is very easy going......strange......but when he is not on meds he is his aloof, standoffish self but thats what I am used to. Him having a backbone.