True Fears...

[Steven]

I'm sorry Mike, but you are out of your depth here.

For one... some people choose to live thier lives in such a way as to make a lasting impact on generations to come. Living for others is what makes them truly happy. Who are you to belittle that choice? Why is a self centered life the only valid one? Doies invalidating other peoples life choices somehow make yours bertter?

and the second... Your example doesn't float. You last thoughts will prolly never be "I'm scared". no matter what the situation. Accepting that you can do nothing to stop an inevitable death does not equate to over coming fear. i say this because as long as there is a way, a chance... you will keep fighting to live... Thats fear. I know, you don't believe that... and thats your choice to do. There are a great many people who study human emotions and thier base afects on oour everyday lives that say you are DEAD wrong. Fear is our most basic and eepest set survival tool. Just like every other animal on this planet.

great post.

[ManicQueen]

My biggest fear is death.. it's one thing I haven't accepted yet for

whatever reason.

[Steven]

Why fear anything?

Most people (and there are exceptions) don't fear by choice. When you ask that question, there is an implication that one would choose to be afraid.

Now over time one can control fears...

But fear is the basist human emotion, fear motivates almost every action (arguably) and emotion on an evelutionary scale. Fear is what makes us love, eat, fuck, just about everything....

I think at times people actually DO fear by choice.....perhaps they have accpeted the programming instilled by paretn figures, where "X" = BAD and therefore must be feared....and so they choose to stay put in that particular point of view and dont explore their own reasoning.

Other times we cling to our fears as if they are prized possessions, especially people who have had to survive some sort of ordeal, because they have lost so much of themselves in that scenario that they cling to it doggedly as if that fear is something they have earned.

some of these basics though I'd have to refute....for example:

Love -

fear based? Thats not love. For me love is always rooted in some form of admiration, including love of God. I never "Love" because I'm scared of beign alone, or loveless for that matter. Love for me is always a bi-product of appreciation to some degree. No fear there.

Eat -

I'm not scared of having no food or resources. I'm hungry and I like Brays.

Fuck -

I'm horny and I want some foo foo. Definately not scared of it.

[phee]

Why fear anything?

Most people (and there are exceptions) don't fear by choice. When you ask that question, there is an implication that one would choose to be afraid.

Now over time one can control fears...

But fear is the basist human emotion, fear motivates almost every action (arguably) and emotion on an evelutionary scale. Fear is what makes us love, eat, fuck, just about everything....

I think at times people actually DO fear by choice.....perhaps they have accpeted the programming instilled by paretn figures, where "X" = BAD and therefore must be feared....and so they choose to stay put in that particular point of view and dont explore their own reasoning.

Other times we cling to our fears as if they are prized possessions, especially people who have had to survive some sort of ordeal, because they have lost so much of themselves in that scenario that they cling to it doggedly as if that fear is something they have earned.

some of these basics though I'd have to refute....for example:

Love -

fear based? Thats not love. For me love is always rooted in some form of admiration, including love of God. I never "Love" because I'm scared of beign alone, or loveless for that matter. Love for me is always a bi-product of appreciation to some degree. No fear there.

Eat -

I'm not scared of having no food or resources. I'm hungry and I like Brays.

Fuck -

I'm horny and I want some foo foo. Definately not scared of it.

Fucking fear of not reproducing as a species... without that no species

Eating fear of starving... Your body drives you to eat so you won't die.

Love, love and fear are very close and in fact the same in most ways... If you don't believe me, look at a childs love for their child and vice versa...

[Steven]

having been in car accidents where you have a couple seconds to act, to do your best to avoid it, then realize you can't and are most likely going to die, i think fear is over-rated. in these cases, my last thoughts had nothing to do with "i'm scared", they were "well, that's that".

as far as "fear as an instinct" goes, sure, it's primal, but you don't have to live at that base level unless you choose to, by not learning to face your fears. fear is letting something else control you, and i don't like that idea, so whenever i realize something bothers me to that extent, i face it & try to determine what it is that triggers that response in me. once i understand it, it no longer has a hold on me, and i can function as i should...

but maybe that's just me...!?

I don't think anybody has time for beign scared in an accident scenario, I sure never did - and as I'm sure you know even in that split milisecond theres this weird slow down process that happens, to me its been more like a surreal akwardness within the situation than anything else, even as I was getting hurt. But I dont think thats dealing with fear as much as it is a fast paced drop into a fate scenario...

In facing your fears or understanding them - is that enough? In other words what does it REALLY mean to "Face" your fears?

For example I understand my own triggers - I know they come from a childhood of various forms of abuse, and I "understand" them on the surface....but I still have to re-route them and or replace certain behaviours in a re-programming effort.

For instance some people dont like conflict and will do whatever they can to avoid it - but is that dealign with your fear or is it taking long steps to avoid that which makes you uncomfortable? To me it seems fear based.

or perhaps anpother example is that some people don't like mongomy and so they lead open ended lives, but is that also a potential sidestepping of that which you "fear" is unfair or limiting or ??? I think sometimes we consider the alternatives that we offer up to ourselves as solutions, when in reality they are just placebos...

[Steven]

Fucking fear of not reproducing as a species... without that no species

Eating fear of starving... Your body drives you to eat so you won't die.

Love, love and fear are very close and in fact the same in most ways... If you don't believe me, look at a childs love for their child and vice versa...

I cant reproduce. I tried, but we have a physiological breakdown there. We stopped tryign years ago. I have not adopted either. yet I still love to do the nasty. I still chub up constantly. And I still love to see her naked. What am I scared of?

My Body works like a machine inside of this environment, which is not in a 3rd world country. I do not starve. I have not experienced starvation. I have expereinced steak, ribs, spaghetti, Mexican and various other Oo la la's. When my blood sugar drops and my protein levels are insufficient my requires more food to operate. likewise My car is a machine. It requires gasoline to continue, and oil to avoid a certain death. Like my body - it warns me of inusfficient quantities...but it is not scared of anything. I am not in fear of starvation. In fact my car has come much much closer to actual termination and starvation by avoidance than my body and therefore psyche has EVER come to. If I grew up in Africa then your idea would carry much more weight with me.

you lost me in looking at a Childs love for a Child.....and no I dont beleive you but thats ok. I could retort with look at my 20 plus years of still thriving and fulfilling marriage to one woman. No kids, no reproduction of the species, no fear of rejection, no competition with former lovers, no fighting for my rights or respect at home, just a basic admiration for this lady that I think is pretty fuckign amazing. There is the slight chance Phee that yrou experiences with love differ greatly from my own and in your case YES love and fear tied closely togethor but in my case its been comepletely different.

[phee]

I cant reproduce. I tried, but we have a physiological breakdown there. We stopped tryign years ago. I have not adopted either. yet I still love to do the nasty. I still chub up constantly. And I still love to see her naked. What am I scared of?

My Body works like a machine inside of this environment, which is not in a 3rd world country. I do not starve. I have not experienced starvation. I have expereinced steak, ribs, spaghetti, Mexican and various other Oo la la's. When my blood sugar drops and my protein levels are insufficient my requires more food to operate. likewise My car is a machine. It requires gasoline to continue, and oil to avoid a certain death. Like my body - it warns me of inusfficient quantities...but it is not scared of anything. I am not in fear of starvation. In fact my car has come much much closer to actual termination and starvation by avoidance than my body and therefore psyche has EVER come to. If I grew up in Africa then your idea would carry much more weight with me.

you lost me in looking at a Childs love for a Child.....and no I dont beleive you but thats ok. I could retort with look at my 20 plus years of still thriving and fulfilling marriage to one woman. No kids, no reproduction of the species, no fear of rejection, no competition with former lovers, no fighting for my rights or respect at home, just a basic admiration for this lady that I think is pretty fuckign amazing. There is the slight chance Phee that yrou experiences with love differ greatly from my own and in your case YES love and fear tied closely togethor but in my case its been comepletely different.

These fears are not of from what is actually going on in the environment, but from where we came from as a species...

Err more on this concept here....Fear Itself

[phee]

Fucking fear of not reproducing as a species... without that no species

Eating fear of starving... Your body drives you to eat so you won't die.

Love, love and fear are very close and in fact the same in most ways... If you don't believe me, look at a childs love for their child and vice versa...

Oh and btw... these are subconsious in nature... not on the surface...

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Fear is the opposite of faith. I have to check myself even when I'm stressed out, and remind myself that something greater than me is watching over me.

[Msterbeau]

What seems strange to me about fears is that we all have different ones. Some of that can certainly come about because of experiences early in our lives. But that's not always the case.

In my very first time racing, I spun (In the rain) and watch a car come at me that I knew was going to hit me. I wasn't fearful. Concerned would be more accurate. I shopuld have been shitting bricks. Yet dealing with money or authority figures sometimes flips me out.

[Steven]

These fears are not of from what is actually going on in the environment, but from where we came from as a species...

Err more on this concept here....Fear Itself

No I understand this argument, i simply reject it outright.

To me this stems from more of that ever popular stance that we are scuh control of our lives except of course for when its more convenient to not be....

[ManicQueen]

Fear is the opposite of faith. I have to check myself even when I'm stressed out, and remind myself that something greater than me is watching over me.

Which is were my fear stems from.

[Steven]

What seems strange to me about fears is that we all have different ones. Some of that can certainly come about because of experiences early in our lives. But that's not always the case.

In my very first time racing, I spun (In the rain) and watch a car come at me that I knew was going to hit me. I wasn't fearful. Concerned would be more accurate. I shopuld have been shitting bricks. Yet dealing with money or authority figures sometimes flips me out.

perfect example Marc. Again this is sort of that strange surreal (how cool that you've raced...jealousy enters in but thats another Oprah) slowing down and pondering the fate at hand in one of those life threatening intensive situations instead of being scared...

...and yet when we DO have time to ponder, certain stimuli (money is s very common one - authority figures hits close to home with me) has a way of setting up shop in our heads.....again i think this comes by way of choices made. I think we have infinitley more control over what we fear than we may realize - but we also have a tendency to breathe new life into certain fears.

[Steven]

Oh and btw... these are subconsious in nature... not on the surface...

I think we have quite alot of say so in this area, we feed or starve it by that which we speak out loud, what we read, who we allow to influence our thoughts, the degree of stability we nurture in our lives.....even the subconsious is moldible, it canbe influenced as well as be influential. This sort of goes back to all that lovely crap I was referring to in a purpose filled life.....

[phee]

No I understand this argument, i simply reject it outright.

To me this stems from more of that ever popular stance that we are scuh control of our lives except of course for when its more convenient to not be....

OK no point in trying to convince you then

[Steven]

OK no point in trying to convince you then

scared you? (I jest)

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think, we are talking about two different things.

Thing 1 is "Base Fear". That primal fear that drives us to survive. The push in us to eat, drink, fuck, run or fight... Thats what, I think anyway, phee is talking about.

Thing 2 is "False Fear" or Surface Fear. Which is what we get when we veneer modern life over the base. Fear of money, as Marc, brought up is a "False Fear". Though driven, on a subconscious level by a base fear, the fear we feel when doing our finances is artificial in that we are so far removed from the base fear we can no longer see the connection out of hand.

The two are connected. Any false fear can be traced back to the Base that gave rise to it. In the example above.. the fear/worry/whatever surface emotion is a veneer over the "I need to eat, I need shelter. I need to impress a mate/potential mate. I need to procreate" We don't really feel those base fears directly. We feel the veneer that we put over them.

Some people can control those fears better than others... to a point they don't even realize anymore that fear, even the veneer fear, is even there. They use faith, logic or some other venue to control that fear so much that.. well.. they can't/won't feel it anymore. They delude themselves into thinking they alone have somehow overcome the base instincts that have carried us for 3.5million years into the now. Which in itrself is a fear.. a fear that they are just like everyone else.

[Steven]

I think, we are talking about two different things.

Thing 1 is "Base Fear". That primal fear that drives us to survive. The push in us to eat, drink, fuck, run or fight... Thats what, I think anyway, phee is talking about.

Thing 2 is "False Fear" or Surface Fear. Which is what we get when we veneer modern life over the base. Fear of money, as Marc, brought up is a "False Fear". Though driven, on a subconscious level by a base fear, the fear we feel when doing our finances is artificial in that we are so far removed from the base fear we can no longer see the connection out of hand.

The two are connected. Any false fear can be traced back to the Base that gave rise to it. In the example above.. the fear/worry/whatever surface emotion is a veneer over the "I need to eat, I need shelter. I need to impress a mate/potential mate. I need to procreate" We don't really feel those base fears directly. We feel the veneer that we put over them.

Some people can control those fears better than others... to a point they don't even realize anymore that fear, even the veneer fear, is even there. They use faith, logic or some other venue to control that fear so much that.. well.. they can't/won't feel it anymore. They delude themselves into thinking they alone have somehow overcome the base instincts that have carried us for 3.5million years into the now. Which in itrself is a fear.. a fear that they are just like everyone else.

OK but here's the thing....primal or base fear is still a speculative reality. If your looking at us as the human "animal" then thats a fine argument. In fact I dont dismiss Phee's perspective as worthless, I dismiss it for myself because I dont look upon us as animals, nor do I beleive we are really that easy to categorize, I think there is always something more to the equasion. I would agree however that a base fear or primal fear would be that of wanting to live - fight or flight to survive. But the other motivators don't work well for me.

"False Fear" and the veneer of modern life (good picture by the way) however, to me is still very real, because its manifests in very large ways and gains momentum if left unchecked. In this heyday of uber phobias, false fear reigns supreme, we've built huge financial empires on numbing these sorts of fears. I understand also yoru argument about things such as faith being used to delude ourselves, but that argument depends on the amount of value one does or does not place in faith as a real cognitive power or force for change. I am of the beleif system that faith, coupled with vision (critical) allows you to swap one perspective for the other, one old survival tool, for a new one, better suited to meet your current needs. For example I dont use drugs anymore NOT because I fear being an addict again and all that comes with it, but simply because I beleive (faith) that I have a different calling and purpose that does not mix with an addicts lifestyle or need to escape, therefore I simply dont do what no longer applies to me.

it feels as if your argument states that we never really conquer any territory, we simply cover it up ....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think it could be better put as "We are never anymore than what God made us to be. No matter how much high minded thought we put into it."

I agree with you on Faith to some extent. Faith is one of the veneers in my opinion. It's a way of dealing with the underling core of what we are.

God created us, in my view, to exist in this world. He gave us tools to that end. Fear being chief among them. You can deny that all you like. Denial does not change things. Without fear, on some level or another... we die. Often from doing something stupid, like having Faith that someone else turned that circuit off. Fear makes you double check.

And as for your example.

Faith, coupled with vision (critical)

You mean... thinking it through... weighing the risks and the possible outcomes? it's not a risk if you dint have anything to loose and if you can loose something.. you will fear that lose becoming a reality. Faith... betting your life that all your critical thinking was right and that your fears will come to nothing.

Faith does not get rid of fear... it's a way of controlling it. Another veneer we created to cope with what we are.

You are a Christian man who has reade the Bible. Exactly where does it sway Man is not an animal? God created Man in his image... but he created all life from the same mold, so to speak. Faith and Critical thinking were not part of the original plan... Eve gave us those when she ate that apple. Before that, things just were.

[Steven]

I think it could be better put as "We are never anymore than what God made us to be. No matter how much high minded thought we put into it."

I agree with you on Faith to some extent. Faith is one of the veneers in my opinion. It's a way of dealing with the underling core of what we are.

God created us, in my view, to exist in this world. He gave us tools to that end. Fear being chief among them. You can deny that all you like. Denial does not change things. Without fear, on some level or another... we die. Often from doing something stupid, like having Faith that someone else turned that circuit off. Fear makes you double check.

And as for your example.

You mean... thinking it through... weighing the risks and the possible outcomes? it's not a risk if you dint have anything to loose and if you can loose something.. you will fear that lose becoming a reality. Faith... betting your life that all your critical thinking was right and that your fears will come to nothing.

Faith does not get rid of fear... it's a way of controlling it. Another veneer we created to cope with what we are.

You are a Christian man who has reade the Bible. Exactly where does it sway Man is not an animal? God created Man in his image... but he created all life from the same mold, so to speak. Faith and Critical thinking were not part of the original plan... Eve gave us those when she ate that apple. Before that, things just were.

Interesting arguments here Mark.

I didint realize that I was coming across as trying to deny Fear as baing a cheif motivator, thats not what I'm really tryign to say. What I'm trying to say is that I don't beleive it is purely foundational to our existence, and that we still have a good degree of say so in how that fear steers our behaviour and beleifs.

I liked the God references you used.

may I suggest that sometimes God may want us to stretch ourselves a bit in an effort at (in humility) enough "high mindedness" to reach our utmost potential? It'ss ort of like when Christ used to give parables and then close by saying "he who has ears to hear, let him hear...."

let's take a look at one biblical perspective on fear:

Proverbs 1:7 (Written by Solomon, allegedly the wisest man who ever existed??)

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

its a somewhat trite passage of scripture, unless its really not. I'm with you in recognizing fear, but a passage of scripture like this tells me to use it (fear) like a doorway, or a tool to unlock certain mysteries.

ok so here's another one (since were using the biblical perspective) - one that almost looks like a biblical conflict:

1 John 4:18 (New International Version)

18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

another trite passage of scripture...unless again, its not. I have often talked about developing a relationship with God and in so doing being able to take solice in your position among things....this snippet of scripture exemplifies that for me quite well. I dont expect it to change yrou perspective, but it does help to explain my own. Fear is a tool, yes, like fire is a tool. Both however can do great harm if not controlled and directed.

Ok and then in all fairness that was a VERY good point when you went back to the beginning with Adam and Eve.

you are absolutely right - the Bible does not say that we are not animals, I can dig that. But it does say that man was created in the Image of God - it does NOT say that about any of his other creations...not even the different types of Angels. If all life was created the same way - consider then the case of Eve. Adam was not taken from any other animal - he was formed from the dust of the ground. But Eve - Eve was not "called into existence" as other creations were, nor was she taken from the dust of the ground like Adam was. She was taken and built directly from Adam's flesh -the only noted creation in this account that worked this way.

And yes things just were

.

but I DO beleive that critical thinking was always there - it was there in the Morning Star's rebellion, and it was the tool used to deceive Eve in her eating of the apple - what did the apple represent? Knowledge and Power - to be "just like God" - that is what Satan offerred her. She was allready immortal. But she was subservient, as was Adam. She recognized that she was in a lesser position of authority and capability - and she wanted more, perhaps she even felt ripped off. So she took the fruit. I even think that she exibited faith in this action - she had faith that what the serpant told her would come to pass, and it motivated a specific act of rebellion.

good stuff dude.

PS: FORGOT TO ADD: "Vision", my use of it in this case, really equates to faith in the end.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Steven

[phee]

I think, we are talking about two different things.

Thing 1 is "Base Fear". That primal fear that drives us to survive. The push in us to eat, drink, fuck, run or fight... Thats what, I think anyway, phee is talking about.

Thing 2 is "False Fear" or Surface Fear. Which is what we get when we veneer modern life over the base. Fear of money, as Marc, brought up is a "False Fear". Though driven, on a subconscious level by a base fear, the fear we feel when doing our finances is artificial in that we are so far removed from the base fear we can no longer see the connection out of hand.

The two are connected. Any false fear can be traced back to the Base that gave rise to it. In the example above.. the fear/worry/whatever surface emotion is a veneer over the "I need to eat, I need shelter. I need to impress a mate/potential mate. I need to procreate" We don't really feel those base fears directly. We feel the veneer that we put over them.

Some people can control those fears better than others... to a point they don't even realize anymore that fear, even the veneer fear, is even there. They use faith, logic or some other venue to control that fear so much that.. well.. they can't/won't feel it anymore. They delude themselves into thinking they alone have somehow overcome the base instincts that have carried us for 3.5million years into the now. Which in itrself is a fear.. a fear that they are just like everyone else.

Dis is the de good post... Phee like

[Steven]

Dis is the de good post... Phee like

I thought it was pants that Phee like?

[phee]

I thought it was pants that Phee like?

Post in my pants.... heh

[Steven]

Post in my pants.... heh

'

K now I"M scared.....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Ok, I think I see where you coming from.. and I think I agree. To an extent. We do have, with our great big brains the tools to choose our own path... but the fear is still there driing those decisions. We just weigh the possible outcomes and choose the path we are willing to deal with.