True Fears...

[Fierce Critter]

But you told me you wouldn't fuck me.... oh, wait, that can be different....

ROFLMAO!

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

I just wanted to add that self preservation to me is not a fear, but just good common sense. If you're taught something will hurt you, you're not taught to fear it, but rather to respect it for what it is.

Fear of loss (financial, relationships, death, your own mortality) is a bit different and unnecessary. In a society where the ends are more important than the means, there is more respect for the means, and less struggle. People don't think far enough ahead to the ends however, because often times the means seem impossible to obtain.

Everyone needs a master. Whether it is you, God, money, another human being, or a paper clip does make a difference though.

If you give sovereignty to a paper clip life can be pretty safe, but not very rewarding. At least you can blame the paper clip for your financial woes rather than yourself. Personal responsibility is excellent, and I'm not saying anything against this, but if you're constantly harboring bad feelings for yourself, maybe a good paper clip is exactly what you need to displace some of these emotions.....

Enslaving yourself to a human being on the other hand can be pretty foolish. This leaves you subject to their whims, and well though I find it most unfortunate, I have not met one human in 30 years that I would ever completely trust with my faith.

Money drives a lot of people. Greed is a very good motivator, but eventually is collapses upon itself. When you put all of your faith into something temporary, the fear of losing it often times prevails....

For me a good deity seems like the best solution. I can go through my life without care, fear, or worry, knowing that I look forward to nothing in this life. I live to serve other people, and respect the things I have with thanksgiving knowing that I've been rewarded for hard work and dedication. I know that any day of the week, I may have to deal with loss, and recently suffered a great financial hardship after someone stole nearly a thousand dollars from me.

The main point is that I generally associate fear with loss. Everybody says they want more and are not happy with what they have, but if this is true, then why do they worry about losing what they have? I know that I want everything I have, otherwise I would not have it. If I had no desire for it at one time, and have no desire for it now, what is the purpose of it in my life other then to take up space? By applying these principles in a logical manner, I can surmise that I have everything I want, and if there is something more that I desire from this life, it is my responsibility to come up with the means to obtain it. Where is the purpose there though? Where does it end?

So does lack of want on this plane leave us without meaning? Of course not. There is plenty of meaning in better things if you open your eyes. If you constantly find yourself stressing about things, worrying, and seeking for meaning, then perhaps you should evaluate your intentions. Maybe you just don't deserve what you want for lack of dedication, or maybe you just suck as a human and your intentions are both cruel and unreasonable.

Whatever the case, fear is not a necessary force in life. Choosing to be alive rather than getting to close to a ledge is just good common sense. There is no fear of death or falling. Just a choice to live today.

[torn asunder]

Everyone needs a master. Whether it is you, God, money, another human being, or a paper clip does make a difference though.

unless i'm misunderstanding this, i completely and whole-heartedly disagree with this statement...

[Steven]

unless i'm misunderstanding this, i completely and whole-heartedly disagree with this statement...

I'll take a liberty here....

to be mastered is to worship.....which I would agree that all men do.

to worship is to quite simply "yeild to that which controls you" it has nothing to do with reverance, or goodness, or holiness or whateverness.

so with bit of twisted logic then I'd assume that even Mike worships, and we all have our God's.

I didint like the paperclip example - although I got it ....

[phee]

I fear that I do more harm than good for my loved ones... that is one of my biggest and most persistent fears in life... and I feel it a lot today.

[torn asunder]

to worship is to quite simply "yeild to that which controls you" it has nothing to do with reverance, or goodness, or holiness or whateverness.

maybe that's the part that bothers me - i'm not controlled, therefore i've no need to worship. i do (or try to) act in harmony with belief system i have, but in no way am i beneath it, less than it, or in an inferior position to it. i am one with it, (or try to be, as i said) and as such, i feel that "worship" has no place in my life. in fact, i feel that i manifest (through the universal energy i've talked about in the past) whatever i believe more than 50% of the time. whatever is in my life is my doing, whether i deem it good or bad, and i accept responsibility for it. i don't lay blame for the bad, or lavish priase for the good, on an external entity.

of course, again, it's possible i'm defining "control" and "worship" in ways different than others might.

[Steven]

maybe that's the part that bothers me - i'm not controlled, therefore i've no need to worship. i do (or try to) act in harmony with belief system i have, but in no way am i beneath it, less than it, or in an inferior position to it. i am one with it, (or try to be, as i said) and as such, i feel that "worship" has no place in my life. in fact, i feel that i manifest (through the universal energy i've talked about in the past) whatever i believe more than 50% of the time. whatever is in my life is my doing, whether i deem it good or bad, and i accept responsibility for it. i don't lay blame for the bad, or lavish priase for the good, on an external entity.

of course, again, it's possible i'm defining "control" and "worship" in ways different than others might.

well Mike although I certainly laud your point of view, I have a hard time really beleiving it, because Ive yet to ever meet a man or woman that is not under the control of anything, especially thigns rooted in fear. In fiarness - i dont hang with you (you live to friggen far away) and I've only sat down with you once, so I dont know you within your lifestyle and relationships. For example fear and avoidance can be forms of unintentional worship.

When I use the term "worship" - in the general sense I am talking about an unconscious thing ie, the end result of whatever steers yrou decisions and thought processes is a form of worship. In my case however - I worship with a much more deliberate intent, which is what I am assumign (uh oh) you are referring to as a non essential in yoru life.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Steven

[torn asunder]

well Mike although I certainly laud your point of view, I have a hard time really beleiving it, because Ive yet to ever meet a man or woman that is not under the control of anything, especially thigns rooted in fear. In fiarness - i dont hang with you (you live to friggen far away) and I've only sat down with you once, so I dont know you within your lifestyle and relationships. For example fear and avoidance can be forms of unintentional worship.

you will believe what your life experiences have shown you - if i'm the first person you've been exposed to, who has my point of view, i wouldn't expect you to believe it - that doesn't mean, however, that it's not true...

i was afraid of the pain associated with getting my forearms pierced - i wasn't controlled by that fear - i overcame it by making a conscious decision to do so. sure i can be influenced by something like fear, just as i'm influenced by things centered in pleasure. these don't control me, because i can choose to do as i wish, regardless of the feelings i have. i don't understand the "forms of unintentional worship" comment; could you clarify that?

When I use the term "worship" - in the general sense I am talking about an unconscious thing ie, the end result of whatever steers yrou decisions and thought processes is a form of worship. In my case however - I worship with a much more deliberate intent, which is what I am assumign (uh oh) you are referring to as a non essential in yoru life.

again, i'm confused by your description/definition of 'worship"... i looked it up online, and here's what i found.

wor·ship –noun

1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).

–verb (used with object)

6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

–verb (used without object)

8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

not to be a smart-ass, (please don't take offense) but i thought of a quote from the princess bride that, to my mind, fits here, when you say "worship" -

inego - "you keep using that word - i do not think it means what you think it means!"

[Steven]

you will believe what your life experiences have shown you - if i'm the first person you've been exposed to, who has my point of view, i wouldn't expect you to believe it - that doesn't mean, however, that it's not true...

i was afraid of the pain associated with getting my forearms pierced - i wasn't controlled by that fear - i overcame it by making a conscious decision to do so. sure i can be influenced by something like fear, just as i'm influenced by things centered in pleasure. these don't control me, because i can choose to do as i wish, regardless of the feelings i have. i don't understand the "forms of unintentional worship" comment; could you clarify that?

again, i'm confused by your description/definition of 'worship"... i looked it up online, and here's what i found.

not to be a smart-ass, (please don't take offense) but i thought of a quote from the princess bride that, to my mind, fits here, when you say "worship" -

inego - "you keep using that word - i do not think it means what you think it means!"

look it up in Hebrew or perhaps aramaic, I tend to do that if Im trying to unpack something that generally seems rooted in Judeo Christianity or is seemingly founded in the following after of some diety - I tend to go with the better known diety and or more popular form of spirituality and so I started my research there. There are many very good biblical teaching aids that help in this regard - you might want to pick one up one day just for your personal research in understanding the mindset of a guy like me...anyway Mike I definately DO beleive that I understand its appropriate context, but that we've watered it down not only generationally but within our western style of thinking. Its sort of like if you look up the word "Covenent" online or in websters, sure you'll get a generic definition - but you need to do a thorough word search and historical retracing of the process of "Covenent" to understand its root born meaning when it was first intorduced to a people

anyway....moving onward to the next point...

Yes I beleive what my life experiences have shown me, thats a very fair argument. But its alos all I have to draw from at the moment and this is why I said that I dont know you ....you are definately NOT the first person however, to explain themseves this way or intorduce me to this beleif system.

On the pain thing - to me thats a bit surface-y - and Im not being critical, its just not what I mean. You could use that same example with say...my willful kidney donation (lots pain for lotsa time) and it would likewise not apply to the point im making.

let me try to exemplify some unintentional forms of worship in a general sense:

Fear of commitment

Fear of judgement or public ridicule

lack of intimacy in relationships

Anger managment issues

issues of addiction in general

habitual loathing

ok, all of these thigns are quite common, manifest in many ways, and often charactorize the life methodology of a particular person for lenghty periods of time. Usually that stuff is rooted in wounds and or un-dealt with family or social dynamics. They stick, they influence, they can cause us to become very creative in our use of avoidence in things that we are simply uncomfortable with. But the key is that they dominate - and thus becomes a form of unintentional worship, because quite simply it keeps the upper hand in shaping our decision making.

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

I have done some thinking over the past week.. i mean ALOT and I have come to the realization that the day that Danny broke up with me, I felt deep, down to my core, fear... I don't know what I was fearing, but it was there.... and it scared me to the deepest part of me to be scared... if that makes sence... man i miss him.....

Edited November 2, 2007 by GothicRavenGoddess

[machine]

Open Water.

(large lakes, oceans)

Anyone with the last name of Kennedy, Gore, or Clinton

[torn asunder]

look it up in Hebrew or perhaps aramaic, I tend to do that if Im trying to unpack something that generally seems rooted in Judeo Christianity or is seemingly founded in the following after of some diety - I tend to go with the better known diety and or more popular form of spirituality and so I started my research there. There are many very good biblical teaching aids that help in this regard - you might want to pick one up one day just for your personal research in understanding the mindset of a guy like me...anyway Mike I definately DO beleive that I understand its appropriate context, but that we've watered it down not only generationally but within our western style of thinking. Its sort of like if you look up the word "Covenent" online or in websters, sure you'll get a generic definition - but you need to do a thorough word search and historical retracing of the process of "Covenent" to understand its root born meaning when it was first intorduced to a people

but the problem here is, you're relating/trying to define worship as it relates to your own belief system - what do you think worship means to someone of the buddhist faith? hindu? druidic? i can't rationalize your argument that worship "generally seems rooted in Judeo Christianity" (i do get this part, however..."or is seemingly founded in the following after of some diety"). telling me to look it up in hebrew or aramaic covers x-tianity-based faiths, but what of the others? must i look up the origins of "worship" in each culture, and must i then know which historically accurate definition of "worship" to use, depending on which root i'm taking the definition from? nobody does that - it isn't practical. this is why we have dictionaries; to give a general definition/explanation of use in popular culture. sure, you can define it any way you want, but that doesn't mean you're right, as compared to the general populous. (yes, it's right for you - but you couldn't win a debate with someone, if all you used were your own definitions/opinions. you must argue your point within commonly understood "groundrules", if you will.)

as an aside, i was raised a x-tian, and have researched enough for my tastes - throwing the bible/biblical teachings at people all the time make you seem a bit one-track-mind-ish. do you have any other sources/references from which you draw information? if not, please don't bother asking me to research anything biblical in the future, until you're prepared to offer up any other source. (not trying to offend you, just making a point)

anyway....moving onward to the next point...

Yes I beleive what my life experiences have shown me, thats a very fair argument. But its alos all I have to draw from at the moment and this is why I said that I dont know you ....you are definately NOT the first person however, to explain themseves this way or intorduce me to this beleif system.

but i may be the first one to convince you!!

On the pain thing - to me thats a bit surface-y - and Im not being critical, its just not what I mean. You could use that same example with say...my willful kidney donation (lots pain for lotsa time) and it would likewise not apply to the point im making.

pain is exactly what we're talking about - self-preservation is where our instictual/primal fear comes from, entirely. when pain happens in the body, fear is what says, "run away! this is hurting me, and i might die! make it stop!" eventually, we learned to associate that pain with the objects that caused it. "here comes a saber-tooth tiger! it clawed me when it killed my friend - that hurt! avoid the tiger!" how is that possibly surface-y and/or not related?

let me try to exemplify some unintentional forms of worship in a general sense:

Fear of commitment

Fear of judgement or public ridicule

lack of intimacy in relationships

Anger managment issues

issues of addiction in general

habitual loathing

ok, all of these thigns are quite common, manifest in many ways, and often charactorize the life methodology of a particular person for lenghty periods of time. Usually that stuff is rooted in wounds and or un-dealt with family or social dynamics. They stick, they influence, they can cause us to become very creative in our use of avoidence in things that we are simply uncomfortable with. But the key is that they dominate - and thus becomes a form of unintentional worship, because quite simply it keeps the upper hand in shaping our decision making.

first, i would love for you to take the time to really explain "unintentional worship" to me. you keep using the term, but i haven't seen a decent explanation of it yet. i want to understand where you're coming from... 2nd, i don't think fear is necessary to learn as an adult. sure, it always starts that way when we're young and we don't understand things, because it's our primitive heritage, but the problem stems from people never growing past that point. they don't "grow up", so to speak. if i do something, a few things can happen - 1) things can go the way i want, in which case, i'll most likely repeat the action 2) they can go in a way i don't like, and i can be hurt by it, (emotionally or physically) and fear having the same feelings, or 3) it can go in a way i don't like, but i can accept that the result is just a result, and if i don't like it, i can choose to try a different method (or take different steps) towards achieving the same goal, sans fear. fear doesn't have to be a controlling factor - i think we all have the capability to shed our fear of fear (HA!) and live the life we want, if we can simply recognize fear for what it is, and move past it.

Edited November 2, 2007 by torn asunder

[Steven]

Hi. I havent had any cofee yet, let's see if i can help with some of this Mike.....

]but the problem here is, you're relating/trying to define worship as it relates to your own belief system - what do you think worship means to someone of the buddhist faith? hindu? druidic? i can't rationalize your argument that worship "generally seems rooted in Judeo Christianity" (i do get this part, however..."or is seemingly founded in the following after of some diety"). telling me to look it up in hebrew or aramaic covers x-tianity-based faiths, but what of the others? must i look up the origins of "worship" in each culture, and must i then know which historically accurate definition of "worship" to use, depending on which root i'm taking the definition from? nobody does that - it isn't practical. this is why we have dictionaries; to give a general definition/explanation of use in popular culture. sure, you can define it any way you want, but that doesn't mean you're right, as compared to the general populous. (yes, it's right for you - but you couldn't win a debate with someone, if all you used were your own definitions/opinions. you must argue your point within commonly understood "groundrules", if you will.)

absolutely. I am using my own beleif system and system of experience, and I am not a hindu or a budist or??? I dont know how you classify yourself... You see I dont think that either one of us is really doing anthing different. For example you looked up and introduced a secular, generic, "safe" definition for worship and submitted it and suggested that perhaps I lacked the appropriate understanding based on YOUR choice of definition....but in essence you were suggesting that I consider to or use as a standard or perhaps yeild to - t he definition that you simply found most palatable. I countered with what I found most palatable. And this is called discussion, of which this dynamic is happenign in the millins all over the world, nothign wrong with it. I am open to hearing the definitions for Hindus. Buddists, (All you DGN Hindus please stand up) etc, but for now - this is all Ive got to work with Bro - and it definately has depth and can lead one to consider - so all I can ask of you is to consider what I am introducing, much as you are asking me to do the same. Even though you and I have disagreed in the past Mike does not mean that you have not given me reason to pause or think about what you have suggested - despite our glaring differences your one of my favorites in here specifically because of how you think and because of your differences of opinion....I actually think that I understand and appreciate what you suggest more than you realize...

Now, in terms of practicality - I disagree. Historians check all sorts of sources in making determinations. Global events in general are researched thru the experiences of differing cultures and their historical and religeous texts, even the world wars have been considered from differing cultures. Practicality en masse has nothing to do with searching to personal satisfaction, Im searchign and researchingfor ME. So do you, its ok. In a moment you will state that you have researched Xtianity to YOUR own level of satisfaction - as have I - but I would assume (uh oh, not again) that I take my research methods and approaches to a perhaps a little deeper non traditional level, because to me its part of my personal search process.

For example I am never satisfied with "the bible says so" any jack can do that. I need to know the culture of the adressee in the text, who was in power, what the commerce was, what the ratio of wealth to poverty was, who the opressing nations may have been, what the immediate cuture of the prophet or cheif preist is, what ties are being formed between old and new testament prophesy, what preceeds the text quoted, what proceeds the text quoted, whether or not the text is part of a book of prophesy, a parable, a personal letter, a historical log, a book of poetry or song, etc etc etc. I DIG man, I dig into it beyond what I am told. You do the same thing with other esoteric beleif systems Bro - that which motivates us calls us in no? But in a nutshell YES I am asking you to consider what I suggested. BUt its only a suggestion. I am not concerend with a debate here because Im not on a platofrm or in addressing a general populace because I am not an evangalist - I am only talking to a handful of people and lately just you. thats fine with me. I tend to like you.

as an aside, i was raised a x-tian, and have researched enough for my tastes - throwing the bible/biblical teachings at people all the time make you seem a bit one-track-mind-ish. do you have any other sources/references from which you draw information? if not, please don't bother asking me to research anything biblical in the future, until you're prepared to offer up any other source. (not trying to offend you, just making a point)

but i may be the first one to convince you!!

I had to chuckle a little bit at this one Mike. Your asking me to be somebody else here - whether you realize it or not. My name is Steven in here - I am that "Christian guy, that Latin Guy, that Guy thats been married for over 20 years, that US Army veteran guy, that rock and roll band dude from Hollywoood guy, that social risker guy, that former homeland defense guy, blah blah blha" all of this stuff is me Mike, all of comes forth in how I address ANYTHING. I put on my pants and go poo as a Christian. I reason as a Christian. I eat sandwiches as a Latin. I go to the movies as an american male veteran. I perform my job duties as a happily married man. I do everythgin the way that I do everythign because I am what I am, Ive no need to step away from that - and I'd bore the shit out of you if I did. Now in fairness, If you ask me to research something, I will. If you say Steven I would like you to consider "X" - and get back to me on yoru finding in light of subject "A" I will. Ive never been opposed to that - is that not being prepared???

And you know what - now that I think of it I definately HAVE offerred up opinions on thigns based on other sorts of research, such as my ideas on the Nephilim/Zamzummin and Native american and aisan texts and histories, my personal thoughts on predators and how to adress them (you guys have even charged me with my points of view being NON Christian), certain political perspectives, family and relational issues etc. Two ideas that pop into my head using the Nephilim example was my suggestion that Neanderthal man is/was physical evidence of a differing species that was in fact very deliberate and intelligent, perhaps an offshoot of the Nephilim, and that many native american cultures spoke of flesh eating giants with red hair that the Sioux nation had to band togethor to eliminate. Recently on Yahoo I saw links on how scinetists think Neanderthal man actually DID speak - and that some fo them had red hair. I dont want to go off on a a tangent but that is an outside edged consideration and suggestion that was NOT rooted in straight up biblical shenanigisms.

Lets at least be fair her though Mike, because I dont go around quoting scripture ALL the time - Ive actually done very little of that when you go back and research me. And when I DO do it - im always adressing something very specific and Im introducing an idea or perspective to consider - im NEVER going "well the Bible says this and Jesus says that"....I never use that MO. In fact I doubt Im anything like the christians you were raised around, and I doubt my approach is like them either.

pain is exactly what we're talking about - self-preservation is where our instictual/primal fear comes from, entirely. when pain happens in the body, fear is what says, "run away! this is hurting me, and i might die! make it stop!" eventually, we learned to associate that pain with the objects that caused it. "here comes a saber-tooth tiger! it clawed me when it killed my friend - that hurt! avoid the tiger!" how is that possibly surface-y and/or not related?

because not all pain is rooted on a physical level, and I dont think we were always using that foundational approach.

there are lots of fucked up people all around who have mental and psychological scars that have never been tainted physically. ANd those scars, that "Pain" - leads their processing. thats all Im saying. And Id rather use social pain examples, they just strike a chord with me.

first, i would love for you to take the time to really explain "unintentional worship" to me. you keep using the term, but i haven't seen a decent explanation of it yet. i want to understand where you're coming from... 2nd, i don't think fear is necessary to learn as an adult. sure, it always starts that way when we're young and we don't understand things, because it's our primitive heritage, but the problem stems from people never growing past that point. they don't "grow up", so to speak. if i do something, a few things can happen - 1) things can go the way i want, in which case, i'll most likely repeat the action 2) they can go in a way i don't like, and i can be hurt by it, (emotionally or physically) and fear having the same feelings, or 3) it can go in a way i don't like, but i can accept that the result is just a result, and if i don't like it, i can choose to try a different method (or take different steps) towards achieving the same goal, sans fear. fear doesn't have to be a controlling factor - i think we all have the capability to shed our fear of fear (HA!) and live the life we want, if we can simply recognize fear for what it is, and move past it.

I also recognize the need for fear and introduced two distinctly different ideas on it - and yes in this case I rooted them in Xtian ideas, because my rationalization fits best within that format. Mark was understanding (I think) where I was comin g from with those suggestions, and neither one of us tried to conquer one another with it - we were simply opting for considerations.

ok an example of unintentional worship:

Me.

I spent half of my life refusing to speak with depth, do any research, or consider alternate points of view or friendships or enter into social circles with people that did not speak my language of comfort whether that be the church or the Barrio - both of which I was very familair with and actually loathed.

Make sense? no.

I saw all the flaws in both what I was taught within the church body and how I was raised and where with gang violence and racial boundries and incredible hypocracy and generational (taught from father to son - literally taught) ridiculous bullshit - yet I did not venture outside those boundries. Why? Because all I knew was all I knew - and although both situations created monumental pain within me, my pain was all I had, my disfunction was all I had - I had worked very hard for it. I feared - learngin outright - that not only weas I shortchanged but that I may need to stretch when I had no immediate mentors or methods to allow me to do that. I feared that I might be wrong about some things and ideas. I feared that what my father and the the hand of God (church) taught me might be wrong. I did not realize that till much later as i grew older, I did not conceptualize what was going on with me when I was younger - it was not intentional - it was surfacy. I worshipped fear. I worshipped low self esteem. I worshipped ignorance and keeping to my place. those three things - had power over me on a daily basis - I yeilded to them whether I recognized it or not, they shaped my thought process and actions.

Later on I got better, I learned, I grew, I changed, and then holy shit I had marriage problems and I didint want any couseling, didint want any mentoring, didint want anybody knowing my home life with my wife was fucked up, didint need a standard to draw from...

....same old triggers: ignorance. fear. low self esteem. I was not a person of faith then, but I was worshipping old "gods" nonetheless.

hope that helped. PS - in recognizing what fear is I absolutely agree with you. Last week I taught a lesson on "ife Patterns - Sowing and Reaping" in my marriage class at church. It was in a nutshell - about the need to review your own life and recognize specific actions and words spoken to you that you embraced that have manifested either negatively or in a positive manner and to recognize certain types of fears and how it translates into yoru relationships.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Steven

[CandyQuackenbush]

what ever happened to the meaning of this thread?

[phee]

what ever happened to the meaning of this thread?

I Fear that it has been lost in religious discussions

[CandyQuackenbush]

I Fear that it has been lost in religious discussions

True. So true.

[Steven]

I Fear that it has been lost in religious discussions

well step back for a moment then boys and girls....Mike and I are simply using points of reference for unpacking fear....rarely is any subject so black and white anyway is it????

I FEAR y'all lost your ability to multi-task .... (its all good)

[phee]

well step back for a moment then boys and girls....Mike and I are simply using points of reference for unpacking fear....rarely is any subject so black and white anyway is it????

I FEAR y'all lost your ability to multi-task .... (its all good)

*sigh*....

If only.... oh never mind.... no point

[Steven]

*sigh*....

If only.... oh never mind.... no point

ohhhhhh say it dude, everybody's fine in here.....(you give up too easy Phee)

[phee]

ohhhhhh say it dude, everybody's fine in here.....(you give up too easy Phee)

The gist of the thread has turned from a discussion to inciting...so there is no point.

[Steven]

but nobody's upset.

who's upset?

Mike - are you upset?

there's nothing remotely flamey going on, no anger, no bitterness, no calling out, no insinuations, no uglyness, no baiting, no name calling, no yelling in upper case letters, no nada.

I am (serisouly) at a loss for that inciting thing of which you speak.

anway - y'all go back to talkign about whatever you want.....

[phee]

No one is upset, but I see where this is going....

And I am choosing not to be a part of it... that's all

[freydis]

What happened to the sandbox?

[torn asunder]

but nobody's upset.

who's upset?

Mike - are you upset?

there's nothing remotely flamey going on, no anger, no bitterness, no calling out, no insinuations, no uglyness, no baiting, no name calling, no yelling in upper case letters, no nada.

I am (serisouly) at a loss for that inciting thing of which you speak.

anway - y'all go back to talkign about whatever you want.....

nope - not upset at all - i'm really enjoying this conversation! if, however, others feel that we've gone too far afield from the original topic (i personally don't feel so) i will gladly refrain from pursuing this further...

just say the word, gang!

[phee]

Not too far... just I think I can tell the future... please discuss