Religious Symbols

[Fierce Critter]

I wonder something, as inspired by the "DON'T SAY MERRY CHRISTMAS" theme of another thread.

The short question: How do you feel when people who don't share your faith, nevertheless buy/display/involve in their lives some form of the symbol of your faith?

For instance, I am not Jewish. I know a little of what Jews believe, and what is sacred to them, and how they worship. But I was shopping at Big Lots after the holidays last year. And OMG - they had on clearance this most dazzling display of menorahs! All sorts of designs from medieval-looking to very modern styles. I could easily have bought about 6 different ones, I found them all so beautiful.

But I didn't. Because I kinda felt it would be somewhat sacriligious to display such a strong symbol, when it doesn't represent my belief. Moreso to the Jews to whom it is important, than to the Christianity I mostly follow.

I stopped wearing crosses/crucifixes when I was heavy into my "I believe I'm pagan" period. I had some really sharp ones, but I tucked them away, rather than wear something that wasn't a true representative of what I believe.

Now that I'm pretty comfortable in a mostly agnostic, but comfortable back in my Catholic lable, and yet still believe in enough things pagan that I feel I can legitimately practice a dual-faith skin, I'll wear one once in a while, just as I'll wear a pentagram, too.

I truly do believe ALL religions are valid. Well, o.k. - I'll cop to a problem with Satanists and Christian Scientists -

But if I do believe ALL religions are valid, why shouldn't I be able to comfortably and without fear of scorn own... a menorah, a Rosary, a pentagram, etc?

I'm curious as to what others think on this. It's actually something I have never had the opportunity to discuss with anyone else.

[Nienna]

Wow.. Good question..

I personally will not wear or display a symbol of a religion I do not follow myself. I feel that doing so does two things that are negative: 1) it could offend others who are of that faith if they know you are not, and 2) It could confuse a stranger who may take you for a follower of their faith when in truth you are not.

I am a dual faith Catholic / Pagan myself and will wear both on occasion. It doesn't really offend me if someone not of those faiths are wearing the symbol, unless they are using it as an excuse to act like an asshole.

[littlepinkkitty]

I was raised in an orthodox jewish house and it wasn't right for me. i felt so disconnected from myself until i was able to become more of a conservative jew. I love being a jew now. I wear t-shirts that have hebrew on them and have a lot of jewish star necklaces that i wear. I have come across people who hate jews and i don't respond to them. I feel like on would be on there levell if i would react to hem. People who hate people based on religion or race are stupid...and i wont argue with a stupid person.

I respect other religions. I think it is a great thing to feel that spirituality. I used to be an anthropology major because i was so fascinated by religions around the world i just had to learn more. I see religion as a thing of beauty. If a person does good through religion then i think that is good. I am a jew but i can say a church is beautiful. I think that religion is such an intimate thing sometimes so i dont judge people by what they beleive. There is so much more to a person so how could I?

What bothers me is when people try to convert you. I have been yelled at because i dont beleive jesus is god or a savior. One guy told me i was doomed an that i should accept christ as my lord and savior or i would go to hell. That is mean. I would never say a thing like that to some one because they dont believe what i believe. People should be more open minded.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I don't wear any symbols of my faith for a few reasons:

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

In this day and age wearing a religious symbol is like waving a battle flag.

and lastly, I'm not really sure what a symbol for my faith would look like.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

What bothers me is when people try to convert you. I have been yelled at because i dont beleive jesus is god or a savior. One guy told me i was doomed an that i should accept christ as my lord and savior or i would go to hell. That is mean. I would never say a thing like that to some one because they dont believe what i believe. People should be more open minded.

Well, think of it like this....

You see a person hanging by one hand from a cliff. Below is a lake of fire and pain. Do you put out your hand and help even if they dont ask for it?

[Head Wreck]

heh.

my religeon doesnt have a symbol. the closest fitting would be the Ohm i have on my avatar (Eartly sanscrit version, hence not curvy) as through talking to a friend of mine who is a "monk" of sorts has led to many similarities between our religeons. he does not mind others wearing the symbols as there are aethiests, catholics, and in one case an evangelist (well, untill he got funny on the whole meditation thing and left on his own accord), all wearing such symbols on out tee's tunics, sashes etc.

[Fierce Critter]

Please, please. Don't take this thread in that direction (prosyletizing, who is and isn't damned and who feels justified in trying to "save" them).

New thread, please?

That's a VERY VERY hot discussion, and while I'm no longer hardassed about threadjacks, that is a subject that is very, very likely to overwhelm the original subject of this thread.

Kthnksbai.

[Hellion]

I have worn pentagrams and medievil jewelry,other than that society is never going to dictate what I wear,or think,other than that I only wear these things when I am at CC or a concert,thats all.It does not bother me what anyony else wears,as long as they dont push their beliefs on me,since I dont do that myself,nough said.

[Steven]

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

although I respect this quoted reference that you added here, I don't beleive it applies to what were talkign about here in this case Bro. Remember that the priests themselves wore symbolic gems that represented the 12 tribes of Israel on their ephods, and the entire temple itself was full of symbolism and ornate work, as was the arc of the covenent....

this particular commandment was directed at a new nation of former slaves owned by teh egyptions....this nation came out of a multi deistic environment, and they were surrounded by pagan nations on all sides. This god of theirs, YHWH - wanted exclusivity - and therefore this decree was made. Even the reference to images made for thigns in heaven above....applies to the many differeing types of BAAL's that were worshipped by surrounding nations, Baals ultimately were demi gods and fallen angels. And even ANgels themselves would stop men from falling down before them in a worshipful state, they did not allow it, in order to honor YHWH.

[Steven]

and now to Camille's question.....

I like menorahs too. I personally, would have no problem using them for decorations and to represent my eclectic nature....and again you have no control over somone else's decision to become offended when no friction was formally present...

I somtimes wear crucifixes, and I LOVE rosary beads and alot of Catholic jewelry and symbolism because to me it presents a certain reverance that does nto come naturally to me....I am by nature an irreverant person, who needs occasional reminding that God is God and I am just a Steven.

[Msterbeau]

I don't wear religious symbols, but if I felt like it, I would.

[Scales]

I'm an atheist, but I love chaos stars. I don't care if they offend anyone, and I don't believe they have any magical powers. They just represent a philosophical interpretation of existence to me. Everything could fall into place tomorrow, or everything could go to shit, or nothing could change, ect.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

The commandment refereed to worshiping anything before God. I will not bow before the Idol the cross has become. I will not bow before a saint or a virgin. The rituals and symbols have become more important than that which they were supposed to represent.

I don't want to say more on this though. My views on modern religion are very... well, people would get very offended.

But... each of us has our own path to God or in some cases... naught.

[sass_in_the_pants]

This is actually one of the things that gets me all hot and bothered.

So, my friend went to Turkey and bought a prayer rug. I found out about this when I was getting myself a glass of water at her kitchen sink and said 'Oh, this is a nice rug' and she said 'Oh, it's a prayer rug. I got it in Turkey.'

Seriously?

You're literally walking all over someone's deeply sacred beliefs because you couldn't find a better piece of home decor?

The rosary for example - whenever I see people wearing it as a necklace...it doesn't shake my faith any, but it does make me think the person wearing it is a moron.

[SuZQZ]

I personally see nothing wrong with wearing or displaying any religious items/symbols as long as you have respect and understanding towards it's meaning and purpose. If someone is wearing a crucifix for the sole reason that they think it's pretty or makes them look a certain way, but they do not follow one of the Christian faiths, I see that as wrong and disrespectful. I can not speak for those of the Jewish faith, but I would think that if you bought a menorah, and used it appropriately and with respect, it would not be looked down upon. If you used it daily just because it's cool looking and holds a lot of candles, then I think that would be disrespectful and in poor taste. Just my opinion, can't speak for anyone else nor would I try to.

[Steven]

This is actually one of the things that gets me all hot and bothered.

So, my friend went to Turkey and bought a prayer rug. I found out about this when I was getting myself a glass of water at her kitchen sink and said 'Oh, this is a nice rug' and she said 'Oh, it's a prayer rug. I got it in Turkey.'

Seriously?

You're literally walking all over someone's deeply sacred beliefs because you couldn't find a better piece of home decor?

The rosary for example - whenever I see people wearing it as a necklace...it doesn't shake my faith any, but it does make me think the person wearing it is a moron.

of course there is still another outward possibility....that the person attracted to these articles is expressing a desire/need for spirituality of a defined sense. I htink lots of people dip a toe in the water this way without even realizing that that is what they are doing....

[Steven]

The commandment refereed to worshiping anything before God. I will not bow before the Idol the cross has become. I will not bow before a saint or a virgin. The rituals and symbols have become more important than that which they were supposed to represent.

I don't want to say more on this though. My views on modern religion are very... well, people would get very offended.

But... each of us has our own path to God or in some cases... naught.

Im not going to get offended dude, and I get it, I do.

and your right - people worship symbolism with no true depth of understanding and then feel angry when that symbolism does not equip or empower them.....

...there I said it - did that work?

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

I wear a pentagram, with ankh hanging from it, and a Celtic burial cross, on the same chain. I never, never, never take them off.

[the eternal]

Ok, I told my self I will be brief, and get back to work--let's see how this goes

Please, please. Don't take this thread in that direction (proselytizing, who is and isn't damned and who feels justified in trying to "save" them).

New thread, please?

That's a VERY VERY hot discussion, and while I'm no longer hardassed about threadjacks, that is a subject that is very, very likely to overwhelm the original subject of this thread.

Kthnksbai.

Thank you. I though LPTs post was awesome, but then I was like and this pertains to FC's question how?

of course there is still another outward possibility....that the person attracted to these articles is expressing a desire/need for spirituality of a defined sense. I think lots of people dip a toe in the water this way without even realizing that that is what they are doing....

I hear you Steven.

It's like people who have dream catchers up.

Or other Native American symbolism.

A lot of them (though not all) are new agey types that want to feel spiritual.

Is that offensive or flattering??

I don't know.

But I think the big thing is if it comes from a place that is pure of heart

As for me, and I'm only one person, if you want to walk down the street with a Chai necklace, a star of David choker, a Kipa on your head, a tallace around your shoulders, tfillin up your right arm

(oooh, constricting leather wrapped around your arm like an S&M snake) a menorah in one hand, and a loaf of fresh challah bread in your other, I say Mazel Tov!

It doesn't even have to be for the deepest intentions or to follow said faith.

I would just make sure, whatever it is, it doesn't make blasphemy or mockery of the religion.

A menorah certainly wouldn't.

All it is is a candleholder that's put in a window to show pride in your faith, and of course to commemorate the miracle that was chanuka--there was only enough oil to keep the temple lit for 24 hours lasted eight days----

until reinforcements (more oil) came.

BTW, any synagogue you visit has an eternal flame lit. It's to remind us that G-d is always present.

G-d is also referred to sometimes as the eternal.

Yes, my children, it's true.

So, FC, when you light that menorah, you're letting people know of G-d's presence, Jews presence in the world, and you are reminding everyone of the miracle of the oil that lasted eight days to keep an ancient Jewish temple lit.

If you're cool with it, I'm sure as heck cool with it.

And they DO look pretty cool.

I think anyone wearing symbols of my faith is quite flattering.

And as opposed to a cross, you're inviting scorn from the unenlightened, rather than comfort in numbers

(unless you're on DGN of course

--where instead of the Christian tradition, we are largely steeped in the beliefs of Atheism and Wicca)

The only thing I don't like is when people like Madonna go around acting like they're big-time Jews, when they bypassed all religious training and went straight to the "cool mystical stuff "(Kabbalah) that previously only advanced rabbinate and scholars dared approach.

(Of course publicity is publicity--and regardless of what you may think or hear about Jews being obnoxious or pushy, our faith doesn't condone evangelizing in any form--so we really don't get our message out there as much)

So buy a f*&^ing menorah.

I'll come over tomorrow night, we'll light candles, spin dreidels, and eat some yummy potato pancakes.

(Damn, that took forever to post)

[Fierce Critter]

Ok, I told my self I will be brief

Stop wasting time saying this. Because it will never be true.

It's like people who have dream catchers up.

Or other Native American symbolism.

A lot of them (though not all) are new agey types that want to feel spiritual.

Is that offensive or flattering??

I don't know.

But I think the big thing is if it comes from a place that is pure of heart

See, the thing is with me, I grew up fascinated by other cultures & religions. And coincidentally, Native American was the one that I really went overboard with. I learned how to work a bead loom, and my designs generally involved NA symbolism. I read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and other books. I wore moccasins, and steeped myself in geegaws like those dream catchers.

And then I visited an actual reservation. Hoo, boy. Culture shock/reality hit big.

They don't wear moccasins 24-7. They don't wear beadwork, and if they do, it includes non-stereotypical symbolism. They don't all hang dream catchers from their rearview mirrors.

I met this little girl in a little store on the rez. And she was working on some beadwork turtles, which represented her clan. And she was so pure, I immediately felt a complete fool and a sham. I realized the true meaning of being part of a culture/society/spirituality. And it doesn't involve a bunch of geegaws & shoes.

As a result, I have a lot more respect for the traditions & rituals of the world's cultures & religions. As a Catholic (good or bad ), it pisses me off when I see someone wearing a rosary as a necklace. And Eternal, I think we can thank Ms. Ciccone for that, too. Bitch.

But I'm not hardassed about it enough to tell someone I see wearing one that the're really not treating the symbol with the respect it deserves.

But this is what leads me to be reluctant to bring something like a menorah into the house. I do have a VERY liberal religious viewpoint. And I do think that, overall, all religions are valid. And therefore, all deserving of respect & proper acknowledgement. And though I think Judaism is valid, and do not dispute the validity of the origin of the symbol, it's not something I worship.

So, FC, when you light that menorah, you're letting people know of G-d's presence, Jews presence in the world, and you are reminding everyone of the miracle of the oil that lasted eight days to keep an ancient Jewish temple lit.

If you're cool with it, I'm sure as heck cool with it.

And they DO look pretty cool.

I think anyone wearing symbols of my faith is quite flattering.

(Of course publicity is publicity--and regardless of what you may think or hear about Jews being obnoxious or pushy, our faith doesn't condone evangelizing in any form--so we really don't get our message out there as much)

So buy a f*&^ing menorah.

This is reassuring. Particularly the part in red. And this does make me sad that I didn't buy any of those menorahs. As cheesy as it might sound buying a menorah from Big Lots, they were awesomely and surprisingly beautifully constructed.

Still pondering. But really appreciating the input.