War and Peace in the middle east

[ttogreh]

The literal billions of dollars that have gone in to Pakistan may very well belie your claim that we have not "gone in" to Pakistan, Gaf.

Washington was hanging the hopes and dreams of the future of Pakistan on a power sharing scheme between Bhutto and the President. It is the fatal flaw of American policy, relying on personalities rather than processes. For both sides of the issue, actually.

Do you honestly believe that if Osama Bin Laden (assuming he is, in fact, still alive) or Zawahiri were to be killed, militant Islamic Extremism would crumble? Do you think Cuba is going to be a paradise of cheap sugar and glitzy casinos the second Fidel and Raul die?

Germany was given to the technocrats, and Japan was given a constitution removing the Emperor from day-to-day governance.

As long as we rely on individuals to effect change, none will happen.

[phee]

The literal billions of dollars that have gone in to Pakistan may very well belie your claim that we have not "gone in" to Pakistan, Gaf.

Washington was hanging the hopes and dreams of the future of Pakistan on a power sharing scheme between Bhutto and the President. It is the fatal flaw of American policy, relying on personalities rather than processes. For both sides of the issue, actually.

Do you honestly believe that if Osama Bin Laden (assuming he is, in fact, still alive) or Zawahiri were to be killed, militant Islamic Extremism would crumble? Do you think Cuba is going to be a paradise of cheap sugar and glitzy casinos the second Fidel and Raul die?

Germany was given to the technocrats, and Japan was given a constitution removing the Emperor from day-to-day governance.

As long as we rely on individuals to effect change, none will happen.

We may have added to the environment a bit, but I still cannot see us taking the blame for her death.... the rest is kind of off topic IMO

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

What phee said.

ttogreth - You are not going to draw me into another protracted disagreement where you are repeatedly proven to be wrong just so you can keep people from having a real conversation about the topic.

[CandyQuackenbush]

Um... How is this our fault?

We have never "gone in" to Pakistan.

That's what I was thinking.

I mean shit, if we really "got into" Pakistan, Odims and I would know.

And, yes, Gaf, you're right, this isn't our fault at all. Now a prime minister getting snipped in Iraq, or Afganistan, yeah, I can see that POSSIBLY being our fault. But only to a degree.

There is no seious war going on in Pakistan. There is a religious war if anything first.

Did anyone blame the Vietnamise for JFK?

[ttogreh]

Oh, such naive thought amongst such thoughtful people always saddens me. The war on terror? It's crap. That is what the power mongers have been reduced to, fighting wars on military tactics and commercial products (the "war" on drugs).

The way to deal with extremism is not solely through force. Indeed, force is the least effective tool that can be used. Of course, politics has its pitfalls, as well. Bhutto was a charismatic figure that had support in both Punjab and Sindh. Unfortunately, it was a party that lived and died with Benazir. Such is the folly of personality based foreign policy.

Without Bhutto, Pakistan's President has no hope of a power sharing deal. With his recent removal of his uniform, and the boycott of the upcoming elections by the only other relevant opposition party... elections seem highly unlikely. With the dimming hopes of elections, comes the dimming of hopes for the military to tolerate Pervez Musharraf as President.

I expect a military coup in less than a month.

[CandyQuackenbush]

That is one of the only ways to "win" the war on terror

We will never win the war on terror. As long as there are people alive, and hate still pumbs through their veins, there will be these Terroist assholes that will do what they want to make everyone else just as unhappy as they are.

As long as there is also cities of helpless families that do anything, and I mean ANYTHING so that they can put more mud on their hut, there will be terroists.

[ttogreh]

Candy, terror is a tactic. You can't win, or, thankfully lose, a war on a tactic. You can win or lose a war on militant extremism, be it Islamic, Hindu, Christian, or Atheist extremism.

As for the rest of your sentiment, I agree with you. The best way to end the "war" on terrorism is to end the "war" on poverty. Rich people have fewer children and don't generally see the profit in sending their sons and daughters off to kill the infidel...

[know_buddy_kares]

on that note, I think Guns'n'Roses said it best in one of the lines in their song, "Civil War"...

"It feeds the rich while it buries the poor"

Anyone who aint a fat cat rollin in profits offa this war and still supports it really should be evaluated for down syndrome or something.

[CandyQuackenbush]

Candy, terror is a tactic. You can't win, or, thankfully lose, a war on a tactic. You can win or lose a war on militant extremism, be it Islamic, Hindu, Christian, or Atheist extremism.As for the rest of your sentiment, I agree with you. The best way to end the "war" on terrorism is to end the "war" on poverty. Rich people have fewer children and don't generally see the profit in sending their sons and daughters off to kill the infidel...

I'm sorry, have you been in this war? The rich people over there have PLENTY of kids. They have mass litters. Rich families are targeted too.These Terrorist will snatch any grown man on the street, beat him, and tell him if he doesn't blow up a building or a convoy, then they will kill their entire family.The Terrorist will strap the hands of an innocent man to a steering wheel for the sake of his family.Terrorist can have more money than any rich man over there.

*edited because it was all smushed together*

[know_buddy_kares]

I'm sorry, have you been in this war? The rich people over there have PLENTY of kids. They have mass litters. Rich families are targeted too.These Terrorist will snatch any grown man on the street, beat him, and tell him if he doesn't blow up a building or a convoy, then they will kill their entire family.The Terrorist will strap the hands of an innocent man to a steering wheel for the sake of his family.Terrorist can have more money than any rich man over there.

*edited because it was all smushed together*

I know how you feel candy, but i think he was targeting our country more specifically... like our polititians and corporate big wigs who live here.

[ttogreh]

How "rich" is "rich", Candy? A man may have plenty of money for his family, but if all of his neighbors are in abject poverty, how "rich" is he, really?

The creation of a middle class in the countries of the Islamic world is the best defense against extremism. Now, as a veteran, you know more about this in practice than I know about it in theory. However, I am certain that economic opportunity, education, and fair trade is the only real way we can solve this so called "war".

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You do realize there is another side to the "war". You know, the bad guys. Yes, I said "bad guys". I said it because it was shorty than delusional religious zealots willing to kill anyone and everyone to get their way. Read the Quran. Then try to imagine someone actually enforcing and practicing EVERYTHING it says is there.

We are Infidels.

We can pay 10% of our income to the local Islamic Courts and follow Sharia Law or

We can convert to Islam and follow all Sharai Law or

We can die.

They are allowed to lie to us.

They are allowed to break any agreement, treaty or word.

As long as in the end, we do one of the above.

The Quran tells them to spread Islam over the whole world. That Islam will someday control everyone and everything.

Did you know that under Sharia Law, if a Mosque is built in a town... that town is now part of Islam and falls under Sharia law.

Know our enemy.

Education and fair trade are against Sharia Law and economic opportunity exists only for the clerics.

[know_buddy_kares]

You do realize there is another side to the "war". You know, the bad guys. Yes, I said "bad guys". I said it because it was shorty than delusional religious zealots willing to kill anyone and everyone to get their way. Read the Quran. Then try to imagine someone actually enforcing and practicing EVERYTHING it says is there.

We are Infidels.

We can pay 10% of our income to the local Islamic Courts and follow Sharia Law or

We can convert to Islam and follow all Sharai Law or

We can die.

They are allowed to lie to us.

They are allowed to break any agreement, treaty or word.

As long as in the end, we do one of the above.

The Quran tells them to spread Islam over the whole world. That Islam will someday control everyone and everything.

Did you know that under Sharia Law, if a Mosque is built in a town... that town is now part of Islam and falls under Sharia law.

Know our enemy.

Education and fair trade are against Sharia Law and economic opportunity exists only for the clerics.

hey wow we basicly have the same sort of extremists here... I like to call them evangelicles!

[ttogreh]

Exactly, KBK. Extremists lose their bite in the face of economic equity. It will probably take generations, but the real solution IS fair trade, education, and economic opportunity.

[Steven]

Most of the people in that region only know violence/killing as a way of life. How can we expect that to change?

I know that my words only cast a dim view (with no hope) but it's the truth. Those people have been killing each other since the begining of time and will probably never stop.

agreed.

which is one of the reasons I tend to scoff at the idea that mankind in general is progressing and is capable of peaceful co-existence. In my mind history refutes this and the present state of affairs confirms it.

we have no true concept with our western minds just how deeply "different" this section of the world really is from our own, and we are incapble of changing thousands of years of history, especially with our own internal erosion here at home.

[Steven]

How "rich" is "rich", Candy? A man may have plenty of money for his family, but if all of his neighbors are in abject poverty, how "rich" is he, really?

The creation of a middle class in the countries of the Islamic world is the best defense against extremism. Now, as a veteran, you know more about this in practice than I know about it in theory. However, I am certain that economic opportunity, education, and fair trade is the only real way we can solve this so called "war".

no offense intended but I think your certainly dreaming, certainly thinking like a tree hugging westerner and most certainly will not see this happen in your lifetime but you'll sure be certain that you are right....

and yes, Candy has walked where you (or even I - and I too am a US Army veteran) where you have not, and theories and books and internet studies and the like are really quite safe and clinical while sounding profound.

[Steven]

Candy, terror is a tactic. You can't win, or, thankfully lose, a war on a tactic. You can win or lose a war on militant extremism, be it Islamic, Hindu, Christian, or Atheist extremism.

As for the rest of your sentiment, I agree with you. The best way to end the "war" on terrorism is to end the "war" on poverty. Rich people have fewer children and don't generally see the profit in sending their sons and daughters off to kill the infidel...

read right off the page......I would be curious to see you strap one on and move into a forward area while spouting this zealous idealism as a harsher reality pressed in on you.

The thing that I dont like about posts like this is the "supposed" tone......walk with me a moment while I mimic an intillectual:

"well its all really quite simple you see if you just broadened your perspective and gave everybody a puppy, a job, and a 401K....."

[Steven]

Oh, such naive thought amongst such thoughtful people always saddens me. The war on terror? It's crap. That is what the power mongers have been reduced to, fighting wars on military tactics and commercial products (the "war" on drugs).

I expect a military coup in less than a month.

and I expect you will never enlist and risk your lofty ideals to enemy fire.

the more I read you dude the more elitist you sound to me.

for someone as talented as you are (I've read your blogs and have enjoyed them) you have a way of dismissing people that you may want to consider giving a nod of respect to.

[CandyQuackenbush]

How "rich" is "rich", Candy? A man may have plenty of money for his family, but if all of his neighbors are in abject poverty, how "rich" is he, really?

The creation of a middle class in the countries of the Islamic world is the best defense against extremism. Now, as a veteran, you know more about this in practice than I know about it in theory. However, I am certain that economic opportunity, education, and fair trade is the only real way we can solve this so called "war".

You'd be amazed at what "rich" is over there. It doesn't matter what neighbors he has, because it's just like the States. Rich people live in the same area of town, and the only thing that they do differently, is the fact that they group together, and still help eachother out.

These crazy radicals don't care what your worth. They see a grown man, walking down a street, they will take him. They don't care about his worth. They don't at all.

Economic opportunity, Education, and the Fair Trade you speak of, will not end it. It will only feed into what the radicals can steal back from them.

The only way to end this, is to HELP them create their own strong army, and HELP get them the best damn police around. Working side by side with a country that can not stand on it's own two feet. Until only then, can we really solve this so called "war".

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I could kiss you Candy.

[Steven]

I could kiss you Candy.

get in line

[phee]

get in line

Indeed

[Steven]

Indeed

get thee behind me Phee

[phee]

get thee behind me Phee

Sure as long as we don't get married right?

*Phee steers the thread back on topic*

The point being the U.S. cannot take the blame for her death

[Steven]

Sure as long as we don't get married right?

*Phee steers the thread back on topic*

The point being the U.S. cannot take the blame for her death

k that was just gross.

by the way was there a point to all this stuff besides rhetoric versus real world?

I cant afforred my gas, thats real world.

they are linking Al Quaida to the assasination (big suprise), thats real world.