So What Makes A Man?

[Steven]

But...but...

Aren't women supposed to have all of that too?

Now I are honestly confused

If those are "men" traits, I then must (and totally for serious b/c I'd like to know) ask you...so what makes a woman?

Maybe you should start that thread then babe.

Nothing confusing here. I'm simply asking about menfolk, and not arguing against womenfolk at all.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Look, What makes a man? What makes a woman?

the same traits. These traits are the differance between being a boy/girl and being a Man/Woman.

[Homicidalheathen]

Yes

diggin you right now Windy....

then as men, are we therefore accountable to others?

our children?

our peer groups?

our intimate relationships?

because to me "responsibility" is drawn from some source of foundational absolute......?

[Destroit]

"what makes a man a good man?".

have at it spooky kids.

The ability to STFU and make me pancakes. You asked, I answered.

Also...men need to know that whites and darks do not go in the same load of laundry.

...()

[Steven]

Look, What makes a man? What makes a woman?

the same traits. These traits are the differance between being a boy/girl and being a Man/Woman.

glad you posted this.

for example I know men who bring home the bacon.

technically they "speak" to their kids....only I know far more about whats going on in those kid's lives than their fathers do.

is there a lack of maturity in evidence here?

remember I alluded earlier to the idea that a good way to measure aman's value system is to take a look at where the majority of his personal time and money goes.....

[Steven]

diggin you right now Windy....

then as men, are we therefore accountable to others?

our children?

our peer groups?

our intimate relationships?

because to me "responsibility" is drawn from some source of foundational absolute......?

Yes

I knew you had it in you.

[Steven]

by the way Gaf you mentioned that you could write a list all day.

I think thats a great idea, seriously.

I for one, would like to see that list, I'm quite sure it has good depth to it.

[saechalyn]

"what makes a man a good man?".

He CHOOSES his responsibilites thoughtfully and based on his own values and goals, not on what his preconceived notions of what a man "should" do are. He doesn't settle down with a woman he doesn't really love and put his name on mortgage papers he can't afford and drag himself to a job he hates and get his wife pregnant with a kid he doesn't want and complain every night in a bar to his buddies about his miserable life while treating his family like garbage. He doesn't coast along making no active decisions and then whine about the way his life turns out.

He asks himself what he wants in a relationship and puts thoughtful effort into finding it. If he's not ready to be a parent he lets his partner know that and understands what method of contraception they are using involves himself in the process. He takes ownership of his career and finances and doesn't blame others for decisions he has made.

He's honest about his intentions. He doesn't lead a woman to believe he loves her if he doesn't. If all he's looking for is sex, he doesn't pretend he's looking for more than that. He doesn't lie to get attention and sympathy or to make himself look like more than he is.

He doesn't feel like all women automatically owe him whatever he wants. If he's turned down, he doesn't throw a temper tantrum and lash out at her.

He doesn't cut other men down for being gay or being weaker than him or being what he feels is less masculine. He's secure enough in himself that he doesn't need to put down others to make himself feel like more of a man.

He's not bitter. He doesn't believe that all women are vicious PMS-fueled she-devils because he's had some bad experiences. He seeks to understand his own emotional baggage and not take it out on his next relationship.

He understands that trust and respect are EARNED and he seeks to earn these with ACTIONS, not just words.

He believes that marriage is a partnership. He believes that decisions about parenting, budgeting, and running a household should be made together.

He seeks to understand his partner. He is brave enough to be honest even if the truth is not what she wants to hear. He understands that people who love each other can get angry with each other and it doesn't mean the love stops. He doesn't run away from conflict. He seeks to resolve disagreements. He engages in thoughtful discussion instead of just waiting for her to shut up. If she is upset he genuinely wants to understand why instead of ignoring her feelings. He understands that IGNORING A PROBLEM MAKES IT WORSE.

I could say more, but I need to get back to work. Good topic.

[Steven]

He CHOOSES his responsibilites thoughtfully and based on his own values and goals, not on what his preconceived notions of what a man "should" do are. He doesn't settle down with a woman he doesn't really love and put his name on mortgage papers he can't afford and drag himself to a job he hates and get his wife pregnant with a kid he doesn't want and complain every night in a bar to his buddies about his miserable life while treating his family like garbage. He doesn't coast along making no active decisions and then whine about the way his life turns out.

He asks himself what he wants in a relationship and puts thoughtful effort into finding it. If he's not ready to be a parent he lets his partner know that and understands what method of contraception they are using involves himself in the process. He takes ownership of his career and finances and doesn't blame others for decisions he has made.

He's honest about his intentions. He doesn't lead a woman to believe he loves her if he doesn't. If all he's looking for is sex, he doesn't pretend he's looking for more than that. He doesn't lie to get attention and sympathy or to make himself look like more than he is.

He doesn't feel like all women automatically owe him whatever he wants. If he's turned down, he doesn't throw a temper tantrum and lash out at her.

He doesn't cut other men down for being gay or being weaker than him or being what he feels is less masculine. He's secure enough in himself that he doesn't need to put down others to make himself feel like more of a man.

He's not bitter. He doesn't believe that all women are vicious PMS-fueled she-devils because he's had some bad experiences. He seeks to understand his own emotional baggage and not take it out on his next relationship.

He understands that trust and respect are EARNED and he seeks to earn these with ACTIONS, not just words.

He believes that marriage is a partnership. He believes that decisions about parenting, budgeting, and running a household should be made together.

He seeks to understand his partner. He is brave enough to be honest even if the truth is not what she wants to hear. He understands that people who love each other can get angry with each other and it doesn't mean the love stops. He doesn't run away from conflict. He seeks to resolve disagreements. He engages in thoughtful discussion instead of just waiting for her to shut up. If she is upset he genuinely wants to understand why instead of ignoring her feelings. He understands that IGNORING A PROBLEM MAKES IT WORSE.

I could say more, but I need to get back to work. Good topic.

GOOD JOB!

as for choosing his responsibilities based on his own values as opposed to societal norms....I actually agree with that - especially since I think societal norms have been watered down to almost nothing these days..... see I'm not actually looking for one set standard or rulebook here folks.....but when I say to someone "be a man, my son".....I'd like that to carry some capacity for thought and consideration. For example my father - was a VERY strong father figure, and yet in many ways we have completely different lifestyles.......at the core however, we are very much alike, and I dont beleive that that is intentional on my part....i think its a bi-product of not only what was modeled for me - but also as much as what was NOT appropriately modeled for me.

Inthe end, Im searching for integrity here, not tradition, not at all....

[TygerLili]

"what makes a man a good man?".

have at it spooky kids.

Thank you for re-phrasing that. I knew what you meant with the original question, but I absolutely hate the phrase:

"Be a man."

As a woman I'm probably overly sensitive to this phrase, but it has always struck me as sexist (though I know the most common interpretation of it is "Be a man rather than a little boy.") and I was ready to make a smartassed remark about having a Y chromosome.

To answer the question, most of the traits mentioned are important. Maturity, responsibility, self-esteem, honesty, fairness, empathy...that's a good start, I don't have all day to continue.

[Steven]

As a woman I'm probably overly sensitive to this phrase, but it has always struck me as sexist (though I know the most common interpretation of it is "Be a man rather than a little boy.") and I was ready to make a smartassed remark about having a Y chromosome.

used by males - this is the only interpretation of the phrase.

I find it interesting, that you find it sexist - something that would never be directed at you, that it is perhaps a trigger of some sort. I think thats very common. and a shame.

[CountdownToBreakdown]

As my computer is messing up, I didn't get to read the ENTIRE thread, so forgive me if I repeat.

I'm only 16, but I think being a man is all about how you look at things.

I just want to bring up an interesting point here.

Let's all think for a second.

Since we were young, we've been taught feminism and masculinity. Correct?

From birth pink is used to mostly represent girls and blue represents boys.

Then we get to the stage in life where boys like trucks, cars, sports, etc...and girls like dolls, playing house, etc.

From there, we eventually find out that sex organs determine your gender (in most cases--this is what parents tell us).

So, considering that everyone has a different belief/religion, how do we know that what society calls a boy isn't actually a girl and vice versa??

Or...what if sex organs do not determine this at all?

Some people have the notion that they are for example a boy in a girl's body or a girl in a boy's body.

We have heterosexuality, homosexuality, and transgender, etc...

Look up the term "Genderqueer" if you will.

I myself will admit that I had gender identity issues when I was 15. Hence how I began getting called the "gay guy" in my group of friends. Even my family refers to me as my mother's "gay son".

I, personally, support gay/lesbian/bi/transgender pride. I really do.

But it all makes me think.

What if this notion of "being a man" is all perception??

Maybe I think too much.

But if this confuses anyone (considering I'm not good at wording things), think of it like this:

Look at a blue object. Why do you call it blue? You were taught at an early age what blue looks like. But nobody can see through your eyes. So what if what you were taught is blue is pink? Or some other color? What if orange to me is black to you? It could happen.

Names and vernacular in society are usually pretty generic and leave room for this theory of perception.

Anyone agree?

Thanks for reading through this. I hope I didn't get way too far off topic, I just wanted to make a point on my opinion.

:]

[SuZQZ]

...is there a lack of maturity in evidence here?

remember I alluded earlier to the idea that a good way to measure a man's value system is to take a look at where the majority of his personal time and money goes.....

OMG! Yes! This is exactly why I see my ex-husband as a boy instead of a man. Personal time with our daughter is her alone in the house while he's in the garage or she's in her room while he's playing mature rated X-Box games in the living room.

(And yes, Steven's quote applies to either gender equally.)

*refills popcorn and resumes seat in front row*

[predaking]

made alot of sense.

ok so next question.......how are we doing today in society, with females having to step into the gap allegeldy left behind by male figures? Is it a good trend? are we improving ourselves and our family units? does it affect society at all?

for example whenever I turn on daytime TV and see an Oprah or a Doctor Phil or a whatevr type of show where you've got some form of chaos at home - I always see tow set patterns:

A) The male figure has long since split the scene.

B) The male figure is "there" by way of technicality, but he's pretty much impotent

the level of equality is very high,

I do believe that is a good trend but the male role is losing its clarity, not because of women stepping up but because men are becomming more lazy and complacent. I think most of it stems from not wanting to take responsiblity for there own words and actions and some then seek to blame women as the cause. This is really seen in the broken family picture, instead of sharing the responsibilities and insuring the kids have a good home alot of these "men" shy away from the increased responsibility for whatever reason (unsure of what to do, never wanted the family in the first place, etc.) I personaly think it is a little damaging to the "family unit" kids look for the support of both parents and if one is in any way missing then the their development is a little stunted (ex. there are some questions that only mom can answer and there are some questions that only dad can answer).

[predaking]

From my personal experience (waits for flames), children tend to do better in single parent homes, especially boys.

Fathers in families are many times the ones responsible for instilling the idea of "gender identities" in children (i.e. "Would I want my boy to be a fag and play with Barbies!" or "Little girls don't do those things" How many times have you heard someone's mother say something like that? Not as much as fathers push those ideas, that's for sure). Fathers push little girls to be girly and boys to be "manly" and to me that's just wrong.

Also when there's a mother and a father, the mother spends more of her time catering to the dad instead of her children (i.e. dinner, cleaning up his shit, argueing, etc). I mean, isn't he supposed to be grown? Come on!

If mothers spend more time with kids they end up more emotionally satisfied, have a stronger relationship with the parent, and moreover - LEARN stuff from mom. Dumb little things, you know, like how to balance a checkbook. Or even life lessons. Whichever. That wouldn't have been learned if mom was spending her time catering to dad (or fighting with him)

Just my opinion based on observations in my life. I know probably an equal amount of kids that come from a home with two parents and a "broken" ( what a ridiculous and harmful term that is) home, and almost all of the kids from single parent homes are happy and functioning members of society whereas the kids that came from two parent homes usually have extra baggage, lower self esteem, are more self centered, do stupid shit to get the approval of peers, and generally don't fair well on their own in the real world.

Biased much?

I believe the reverse of what you said, kids from "complete homes" fare better

and what with all this..."Also when there's a mother and a father, the mother spends more of her time catering to the dad instead of her children (i.e. dinner, cleaning up his shit, argueing, etc). I mean, isn't he supposed to be grown? Come on!"? what the hell kinda households have you seen because I can assure you the this is not how it is everywhere.

now you say the kids esp. little boys do better learning from mom, now what happens if it was mom who took off and dad is pulling double duty?

what about the questions that the little boy would ask and mom can't answer? the same goes for father and daughter?

what about all the hate and resentment that is felt toward the missing parent?? is that not baggage?

and all that stuff you mentioned about learning I learn from my mother AND father, does that mean I have baggage from them both being around and none from when he left?

the last bit of your post are ALL symptoms of a single parent child.

it seems like you have a lot of hate towards men.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You know, I keep hearing these people talk... about whats wrong with "the black community".. they refer to it as the "exodus of fathers" and how it is the main thing holding the black community back.

before I get accused of being racists.. it's black people I hear saying that.

Then there is the whole of modern psycology and it saying that young boys need a strong male figure in thier lives if the father is not there.

My point of view.. and mostof you are not going to like it...

Women raise boys. Men raise men.

[creatureofthenyte]

What makes a good man ?

Well, continually striving to be a better person for starters.

Taking ownership of mistakes.

Admitting fault or guilt, willingly.

Treating others as he likes to be treated.

Doing the right thing, even if its not popular and even if he doesn't wanna.

Keeping things in proper perspective.

Self control.

Self discipline/motivation.

A good sense of humor.

Sensativity and humility at the right times for the right reasons.

[Msterbeau]

You know, I keep hearing these people talk... about whats wrong with "the black community".. they refer to it as the "exodus of fathers" and how it is the main thing holding the black community back.

before I get accused of being racists.. it's black people I hear saying that.

Then there is the whole of modern psycology and it saying that young boys need a strong male figure in thier lives if the father is not there.

My point of view.. and mostof you are not going to like it...

Women raise boys. Men raise men.

I'm going to disagree with that. You're assuming that the women are raising them... and I'm not sure that's accurate. I think (To a significant degree) that the woman aren't doing the job either. They're on their own providing for the children.. which means they're at work a lot, busy a lot... tired a lot, which leaves the children with no strong role model at all. Then add in that some of those mothers aren't too super spiffy themselves. Call it a recipe for disaster in terms of raising emotionally healthy children. Boys and girls alike...

Also... I've seen good people come from broken homes. I don't think it's the norm, but it happens. I think genetics plays a role here. Some people are more resilient to bad parenting. Some take on the lessons the opposite of what was modeled for them.

To make your case, you would need to study lesbian parents and see what happens to the boys when they grow up.

[CountdownToBreakdown]

Which brings up not only my theory of perception (posted at the bottom of the first page) but nurture vs nature.

Also, could studying lesbian parents or any other home really prove anything specifically?

Every home, no matter what degree of similarities are among some, is different because of each individual's behavioral tendencies.

But that's just my opinion.

[Msterbeau]

What makes a good man ?

Well, continually striving to be a better person for starters.

Taking ownership of mistakes.

Admitting fault or guilt, willingly.

Treating others as he likes to be treated.

Doing the right thing, even if its not popular and even if he doesn't wanna.

Keeping things in proper perspective.

Self control.

Self discipline/motivation.

A good sense of humor.

Sensativity and humility at the right times for the right reasons.

I'm not singling you out here... just using you as an example:

AGAIN... I fail to see how 99% of the things listed so far in this thread are exclusive to men. If this discussion is about what makes a Good Man... talk about things that are the exclusive provenance of men.

[Msterbeau]

Which brings up not only my theory of perception (posted at the bottom of the first page) but nurture vs nature.

Also, could studying lesbian parents or any other home really prove anything specifically?

Every home, no matter what degree of similarities are among some, is different because of each individual's behavioral tendencies.

But that's just my opinion.

I agree... But I'm guessing if you study enough of them, you can draw some broad conclusions.

[Msterbeau]

OMG! Yes! This is exactly why I see my ex-husband as a boy instead of a man. Personal time with our daughter is her alone in the house while he's in the garage or she's in her room while he's playing mature rated X-Box games in the living room.

(And yes, Steven's quote applies to either gender equally.)

*refills popcorn and resumes seat in front row*

*Steals a few popcorns*

[CountdownToBreakdown]

I agree... But I'm guessing if you study enough of them, you can draw some broad conclusions.

I agree with you on that.

It's also a good point to bring up of children raised in homes of singles parents.

I live with my mom because my dad didn't claim me and I'm honestly not very "girly" at all even though I was raised by my mom.

I honestly think it's because I was missing a father figure but I'm not sure.

But it's a very interesting thing to think about.

[Msterbeau]

I agree with you on that.

It's also a good point to bring up of children raised in homes of singles parents.

I live with my mom because my dad didn't claim me and I'm honestly not very "girly" at all even though I was raised by my mom.

I honestly think it's because I was missing a father figure but I'm not sure.

But it's a very interesting thing to think about.

My personal experience (I have two daughters) and the reading I've done tell me both parents are important to healthy development. I think there are traits specific to each gender that are useful for the development of a child. That said, I'm not inclined to say it's a bad thing that two men or two women raise a child or that those children won't develop into healthy adults.

[CountdownToBreakdown]

My personal experience (I have two daughters) and the reading I've done tell me both parents are important to healthy development. I think there are traits specific to each gender that are useful for the development of a child. That said, I'm not inclined to say it's a bad thing that two men or two women raise a child or that those children won't develop into healthy adults.

This is a good point.

There are so many possible outcomes to a single parent home.

Sometimes it seems like a game of chance. Not to say there's anything wrong with it.

I mean, I come from a single parent home and I'm proud of it and my mom is a strong person.

I guess it's just because relationships are so complicated.

But then again, I'm only 16. I have a lot to learn.