Is It Dead?

[predaking]

Is it dead?

or is it being killed off?

I still practice chivalry, but does it undermind a womans independence?

As a women where would you draw the line between chivalry and creepy?

what she wants

[Msterbeau]

I practice my own form. Call it what you want... I don't have a problem being extra considerate to women.

[Brenda Starrr]

I get treated as though I were the most precious person alive. It's really quite refreshing.

[Msterbeau]

I get treated as though I were the most precious person alive. It's really quite refreshing.

We all know you're putting Sodium Floride in his coffee....

[creatureofthenyte]

I dunno, it almost seems that by being chivalrous , you could be treading a fine line between chivalry, and being "too nice". I could be wrong.

[predaking]

I dunno, it almost seems that by being chivalrous , you could be treading a fine line between chivalry, and being "too nice". I could be wrong.

nope i'm thinking your almost dead on.

[Nienna]

I've developed an innate distrust for pretty much the entire male gender. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how good they are to you, they will eventually hurt you, use you, and screw you over in some way. So while I appreciate it, I don't trust it. It has just started to feel like another ploy.

[Steven]

I dunno, it almost seems that by being chivalrous , you could be treading a fine line between chivalry, and being "too nice". I could be wrong.

I think common sense is the best approach.....being chivalrous to me simply equates to being courteous and respectful, and in that regard you simply respond to the need or task at hand......not all women dig the attention brought to them in this manner....so you have to be able to get a read on her vibe....which to me is not all that hard....if she's a man hater or simply defensive (always for good reason) you catch it in her mannerisms and in how she might fix her eyes on you.

by the way I open doors for men too.

and the use of the word "nice" in this regard always confuses me.....I never attatch the word nice to anybody until Ive had some from of conversation with them, even if its breif. Being respectful or courteous to me is not "nice".....its just a standard.

[Steven]

I've developed an innate distrust for pretty much the entire male gender. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how good they are to you, they will eventually hurt you, use you, and screw you over in some way. So while I appreciate it, I don't trust it. It has just started to feel like another ploy.

Bear in mind though.....that many women are jus as good at this.

so is it really even a gender thing....or is it a basic human relational thing? Perhaps (and I dont know your sitch) what you've experienced has just as much to do with innate personality types carried around in the males you've interacted with. Or you might be right - we might all have the asshole gene but I'm trying love, I'm trying to rise above....

[Ice Queen (1)]

I don't think it's dead, just on the endangered species list. Chivalry does not undermine a woman's independence. I am very independent, sometimes too independent, yet I appreciate chivalry on the rare occasions I see it. I don't expect it, and am pleasantly surprised when it happens. I'm thinking I should expect it though.

What even counts as chivalry anymore, anyway? I'm not sure how it could be creepy. Opening doors, offering jackets, pulling out chairs, escorting to car/door, pretty standard. I had someone carry me over a puddle once.

What creeps me out? When the call more then one a day every day, when they don't let me out of their sight, when they show up unannounced several times in a short amount of time.

[Steven]

I don't think it's dead, just on the endangered species list. Chivalry does not undermine a woman's independence. I am very independent, sometimes too independent, yet I appreciate chivalry on the rare occasions I see it. I don't expect it, and am pleasantly surprised when it happens. I'm thinking I should expect it though.

What even counts as chivalry anymore, anyway? I'm not sure how it could be creepy. Opening doors, offering jackets, pulling out chairs, escorting to car/door, pretty standard. I had someone carry me over a puddle once.

What creeps me out? When the call more then one a day every day, when they don't let me out of their sight, when they show up unannounced several times in a short amount of time.

Hey, that wasent me, man

if I ever open a door for you Im also quickly movin on....I got shit to do.

[Destroit]

Is it dead?

I hope so.

Out with the outdated in with the new.

I can open a door better than any man could . Well, not that I could prove that, but what I mean is that not only am I not weak, I'm stronger than most of the guys I know. So when men try to be chivalrous and lift shit for me or carry my stuff...yeah, it REALLY pisses me off. Makes me feel like it's their secret little way of calling me a pussy, which does not fly with me. I don't let them do it most of the time, they'll be like "I got it" and I'll just say "uhm...no you don't, I got it".

We don't need the knight in shining armor because we figured out that we can do everything that knight can, and sometimes do it better.

If it isn't gender based it's fine with me, as a kind gesture or whatever. I mean I've opened doors for people, but not because I'm trying to make them feel like they can't. The door opening thing bothers me least, girls do it for other girls all the time now, guys do it for other guys, to me it's just a gesture of kindness, not chivalry.

But guys trying to carry my shit, I will say once again, does get me slightly bothered.

[Steven]

Is it dead?

I hope so.

Out with the outdated in with the new.

I can open a door better than any man could . Well, not that I could prove that, but what I mean is that not only am I not weak, I'm stronger than most of the guys I know. So when men try to be chivalrous and lift shit for me or carry my stuff...yeah, it REALLY pisses me off. Makes me feel like it's their secret little way of calling me a pussy, which does not fly with me. I don't let them do it most of the time, they'll be like "I got it" and I'll just say "uhm...no you don't, I got it".

We don't need the knight in shining armor because we figured out that we can do everything that knight can, and sometimes do it better.

If it isn't gender based it's fine with me, as a kind gesture or whatever. I mean I've opened doors for people, but not because I'm trying to make them feel like they can't. The door opening thing bothers me least, girls do it for other girls all the time now, guys do it for other guys, to me it's just a gesture of kindness, not chivalry.

But guys trying to carry my shit, I will say once again, does get me slightly bothered.

ok - requoting you here: If it isn't gender based it's fine with me, as a kind gesture or whatever. I mean I've opened doors for people, but not because I'm trying to make them feel like they can't. The door opening thing bothers me least, girls do it for other girls all the time now, guys do it for other guys, to me it's just a gesture of kindness, not chivalry.

and this is part of what I lean towards.....that there has been some sort of covert insinuation, that men are disrespecting you with a very general and harmless gesture.....for example I I opened a door for you im in no way whatsoever thining about the message Im tryign to send you - and I seriously (seriously now) doubt any other men are either, its just a door, being opened up. Same thing with helping you pick something - I work in a trades based environment - Im always grabbing something for somebody or helping them physically in some way...it means nothing other than were trying to move object A to vicinity B. We've got a young kid on one of our crews...he's in his early 20's and sligh in terms of build. And I am definately stronger than he is and Ill load up shelves with the bigger objects or help him wiht stuff........but so what? Nobody gets any bad message.

[Destroit]

ok - requoting you here: If it isn't gender based it's fine with me, as a kind gesture or whatever. I mean I've opened doors for people, but not because I'm trying to make them feel like they can't. The door opening thing bothers me least, girls do it for other girls all the time now, guys do it for other guys, to me it's just a gesture of kindness, not chivalry.

and this is part of what I lean towards.....that there has been some sort of covert insinuation, that men are disrespecting you with a very general and harmless gesture.....for example I I opened a door for you im in no way whatsoever thining about the message Im tryign to send you - and I seriously (seriously now) doubt any other men are either, its just a door, being opened up. Same thing with helping you pick something - I work in a trades based environment - Im always grabbing something for somebody or helping them physically in some way...it means nothing other than were trying to move object A to vicinity B. We've got a young kid on one of our crews...he's in his early 20's and sligh in terms of build. And I am definately stronger than he is and Ill load up shelves with the bigger objects or help him wiht stuff........but so what? Nobody gets any bad message.

I reply to you with a quote from my own post: "If it isn't gender based it's fine with me, as a kind gesture or whatever. I mean I've opened doors for people, but not because I'm trying to make them feel like they can't. The door opening thing bothers me least, girls do it for other girls all the time now, guys do it for other guys, to me it's just a gesture of kindness, not chivalry."

I have no problem with what you stated, it's true. However chivalry in itself, the whole concept and even the word was based and to me is still based on GUYS doing stuff for GIRLS, which to me incinuates we're weak or something.

Having someone who is strong lift something for someone who is weak is fine. In my kickboxing class I'm the tallest girl (happens damn near everwhere ) and I'm constantly putting mats and equipment on shelves for little ones, even boys shorter than me. Things like that are totally cool.

Like I stated also, guys open doors for guys now, girls do it for other girls, girls do it for guys (I do anyway) so I guess the door thing is just a nice gesture now as opposed to chivalry, which I have no problem with.

BUT...I've had guys who are shorter and weaker than me insist on carrying my shit JUST because they're a "man" and it's the "right thing to do". Puh-lease . That bullshit thinking needs to GO.

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my original post, bro. The way my brains take in information, "think", then spit it out is somewhat akin to the way a Magic 8 Ball operates - I, for the most part, don't even know what the hell is going to come out next or what it's going to say.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

chivalry has nothing to do with repressing and or belittleing a woman.

It's a code of conduct invented by Men for Men. It's a measure of oneself against the ideal of that same self.

[Destroit]

chivalry has nothing to do with repressing and or belittleing a woman.

It's a code of conduct invented by Men for Men. It's a measure of oneself against the ideal of that same self.

Meh, still don't know if I buy that. If that's the case why isn't there a code like that for women?

Either way, having a certain code of conduct made "by men for men" or for either gender, is still IMO kinda sexist a bit.

I personally live in a world of androgeny, and my goodness it's awesome here. I can do whatever I want regardless of the crotch I was born with.

[Head Wreck]

I've developed an innate distrust for pretty much the entire male gender. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how good they are to you, they will eventually hurt you, use you, and screw you over in some way. So while I appreciate it, I don't trust it. It has just started to feel like another ploy.

oddly enough, thats how i feel towards women on bad days.

I don't think it's dead, just on the endangered species list. Chivalry does not undermine a woman's independence. I am very independent, sometimes too independent, yet I appreciate chivalry on the rare occasions I see it. I don't expect it, and am pleasantly surprised when it happens. I'm thinking I should expect it though.

What even counts as chivalry anymore, anyway? I'm not sure how it could be creepy. Opening doors, offering jackets, pulling out chairs, escorting to car/door, pretty standard. I had someone carry me over a puddle once.

What creeps me out? When the call more then one a day every day, when they don't let me out of their sight, when they show up unannounced several times in a short amount of time.

thats not chivalry, thats obsesion. creepytime!

Meh, still don't know if I buy that. If that's the case why isn't there a code like that for women?

Either way, having a certain code of conduct made "by men for men" or for either gender, is still IMO kinda sexist a bit.

I personally live in a world of androgeny, and my goodness it's awesome here. I can do whatever I want regardless of the crotch I was born with.

nothing stopping you.

what people call chivalry today is the nice fluffy bunny version. i don't think women of today would find chivalry at all appealing, in fact some parts of the code i find abhorrent.

little things like:

"if a woman is on her own its your duty to escort and protect her"

sounds nice doesn't it, but on the flip side

"if a woman is in male company you have a right to chalange the escort, and the victor (the one that doesnt have his head bashed in horribly) can claim the woman and treat her as he sees fit, even if she objects."

now that part isn't so good as you might guess.

and chivalry only counted for nobletry

personally, even though i personally admit I'm slightly damaged with a overseas steamer-load of issues and paranoia, i have been brought up to be polite towards women, to offer the coat, to pull the chair out, to open the door. its not sexist, its just a little touch of old fashioned decorum which i think the world can do with a slight return to the standard of manners. women are equally capable to be as independent as men.

just a note to men. be polite, don't be a doormat. that just leads to the possition i am in (fucked up and terminaly single)

[Steven]

chivalry has nothing to do with repressing and or belittleing a woman.

It's a code of conduct invented by Men for Men. It's a measure of oneself against the ideal of that same self.

my beautiful, gorgeous, wise, and brilliant 20 something God daughter once wrote to me and called me

"a true gentlemen"....

I had never even considered it before until I heard it from her.

[Der Nister]

It's a catch 22 and I just prefer to be selective about whom I go out of my way for. Oddly enough this works out just fine for me.

[hunhee]

I've developed an innate distrust for pretty much the entire male gender. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how good they are to you, they will eventually hurt you, use you, and screw you over in some way. So while I appreciate it, I don't trust it. It has just started to feel like another ploy.

This is sad, because you totally don't deserve to be treated this way. *HUGS* to you my dear.

I can do whatever I want regardless of the crotch I was born with.

This is the funniest quote I've ever read.. bwahahahah

I'm a very independent woman. I always do for myself, because I'm stubborn, and I like to believe I can do just about anything I put my mind to.

BUT I'm just now getting used to having a guy help me into my coat, or pull the chair out for me at the dinner table, or open my door when we get to the car, or give me his coat if I'm cold (and I'm always cold). I purposefully try to hold doors open for people too, and I've been known to help out with putting a coat on.

These things I don't exactly know are chivalrous, but they're definitely nice, and thoughtful. A lot of guys lack this. None of these things are creepy nor do I think they belittle me.

[Destroit]

This is the funniest quote I've ever read.. bwahahahah

...funny hmmm? Then maaaaybe.. you should post it in the "funny quotes by DGNers" thread.

I've never been in there yet 'cause 90% of the time I'm fairly unfunny, or mediocre at best in the laughocity

OR people are laughing at me and I think they're laughing with me. These things happen to the best of us I guess.

[Steven]

This is sad, because you totally don't deserve to be treated this way. *HUGS* to you my dear.

This is the funniest quote I've ever read.. bwahahahah

I'm a very independent woman. I always do for myself, because I'm stubborn, and I like to believe I can do just about anything I put my mind to.

BUT I'm just now getting used to having a guy help me into my coat, or pull the chair out for me at the dinner table, or open my door when we get to the car, or give me his coat if I'm cold (and I'm always cold). I purposefully try to hold doors open for people too, and I've been known to help out with putting a coat on.

These things I don't exactly know are chivalrous, but they're definitely nice, and thoughtful. A lot of guys lack this. None of these things are creepy nor do I think they belittle me.

you know, Ive been married for over 20 years.

I still say "I love you" at all kinds of odd times, every day.

I still play with her ass, every day

she still cracks me up, every day.

I open doors for her.

carry heavy shit for her

help her with her coats

hold her hand when we walk across the parking lot or thru the mall or when we just take a walk with the dog

I get the ladder out and get shit for her from the garage when she needs it

do the heavy part of the yardwork

deal with the car shit

leave her notes

send her gay emails

sometimes hold her purse for her when she's carring other shit

and if were ever togethor in a large crowd or are moving thru an inner city area on foot (like cheap parking for concerts) I hold her hand and walk with her a certain way....I never even knew I did that till she pointed it out to me, because she likes it, she says I take on a certain protective air about me and I suppose thats just from how I grew up running the streets in LA and Hollywood....and Lola is no fragile flower, like me she was a runaway city kid (in Detroit in her case) and hung with a very rough crowd, she can more than hold her own and can probably beat most of yrou asses (said with love spooky kids).

anyway none of that stuff I do ever makes her feel less than, or weak, or incapable.

now while its true that I will rain the fire of god down on anybody who ever tries to harm my wife or disrespect her, if anything it just makes her feel valued, she doesent have to prove anything to me, or to sell me her credentials, i married her - I know exactly what she's capable of, thats what I dig about her.

I understnad the need for indipendence within the single life format.

but after all of this time she and I are if anything, interdependent. And anybody that would view that as weakness sure dont know my wife.

[Bernadette]

Chivalry revives when we gals wear a skirt and heels! Ooh-la-la...

(at least in the office workplace I've noticed)

[TygerLili]

I think chivalrous gestures are nice to a point. I dated a guy who was so into chivalry that he would slap my hand away if I tried to open a door(including the car door) for myself, and never once, on the 5 dates we went on let me pay for anything, including an 89 cent bottle of water. That was annoying, and a little patronizing, to me.

From most guys, I will graciously except chivalrous gestures, thought they are not expected. I can open my own door, carry my own bag, pay for my own dinner, etc, but it's nice if he offers. If I am struggling and he offers to help me, I wouldn't call that chivalry, I'd call it courtesy, and if he is struggling and I can help him in a way that he wouldn't consider offensive and emasculating, I will.

One thing that really bugs me, though, is when guys try to be chivalrous toward me with all the above mentioned gestures, but won't stand up to their male friends when said friends are making sexist or misogynistic remarks. I don't care how many damn doors you open for me if you can't tell your buddy his "All women should stay in the kitchen" comment is out of line.

[predaking]

I've developed an innate distrust for pretty much the entire male gender. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how good they are to you, they will eventually hurt you, use you, and screw you over in some way. So while I appreciate it, I don't trust it. It has just started to feel like another ploy.

thats to bad, not all of us are like that. I'm not sure what kinda guys you've delt with but there are some good ones still out there.