To Work Or Not To Work?

[Steven]

i think this is irresponsible advice at best. i understand the premise/principle behind it (and i do agree with that) but telling someone to quit their job when they can't afford their bills without it!? come on! "yeah, great idea, quit your job, get evicted, live on the streets with bad credit & no money, but damnit, at least you're with your kids!"

to quote john mcenroe - "you can't be serious!!

i'm really surprised/disappointed by this...

Only YOU said live on the streets and get evicted Jack.

I talked about downsizing and logistics in order to reach a specific goal.

and you know that, but nice try.

and Sass knows me well enough to know what I meant.

So do you.

[Rayne]

The largest growing trend in Busniness is "work from home".

Not those fly by night stuff envolope all day pyramid selling scams...

but real office jobs... with remote desktops and a phone being your tie to the main office.

That is true, but from what I have seen the companies that are offering this to their OWN employees, not hiring someone specifically for it.

[torn asunder]

Only YOU said live on the streets and get evicted Jack.

I talked about downsizing and logistics in order to reach a specific goal.

and you know that, but nice try.

and Sass knows me well enough to know what I meant.

So do you.

actually, you didn't say squat about downsizing or logistics, however, the rest is very true. unfortunately, most people don't have the ability to "tighten the belt", so to speak, and live above their means, which ends up in the situation i described. now, had you qualified your post with something like, "eliminate any unnecessary bills, and then work to greatly reduce the others you have, so that you can *afford* to stay home to raise your kids", i would have fully backed you!

[Rayne]

actually, you didn't say squat about downsizing or logistics, however, the rest is very true. unfortunately, most people don't have the ability to "tighten the belt", so to speak, and live above their means, which ends up in the situation i described. now, had you qualified your post with something like, "eliminate any unnecessary bills, and then work to greatly reduce the others you have, so that you can *afford* to stay home to raise your kids", i would have fully backed you!

If the extra income is truely needed, there's only so much one can do in downsizing. Just one of my ex's many feast or famine jobs was a tow truck driver. He got paid commission. In the winter, weren't too bad off, but summer came and OMG, we'd never think we'd get through it.

Holy crap, living with him was a constant wave between poor and fine. It got real bad a few times. Cut the cable, cut the internet, cut one car, dropped our telephone and cell phones, cut the insurance on the one we WERE driving (yeah ... it was THAT bad), cut the bank account (was charging us too much), made conscience efforts to cut down on water and electricity (which we did) and I STILL ended up having to work. $8 an hour at Best Buy full-time. I still remember that. Opposite shifts too so we wouldn't need a sitter for the two kids we had at that time.

On the other hand though, there were times when we had HUGE checks for weeks in a row. We were good about it. We'd stock up on things like food and diapers, or pay up the car insurance for 3 or 6 months because we knew it would sink right back down sometime.

[Steven]

actually, you didn't say squat about downsizing or logistics, however, the rest is very true. unfortunately, most people don't have the ability to "tighten the belt", so to speak, and live above their means, which ends up in the situation i described. now, had you qualified your post with something like, "eliminate any unnecessary bills, and then work to greatly reduce the others you have, so that you can *afford* to stay home to raise your kids", i would have fully backed you!

no, I distinctly remmber using the word "squat"....

I dont know where your coming in on these psosts Mike so I'll just say go back up and look at where Im talking about living beyond your means with stuff you dont need and beans and rice and lentils. its in there somewhere, but I had probabluy not yet posted it when you addressed me.

anyway i dont want Sass in the Po House.

I am fond of Sass.

I'm simply saying to her for the record: "Babe, if you want to be a stay at home mom, then do whatever you have to do and God bless you for it cause I think its great"

[Destroit]

I really can't disagree with this enough.

It's really hard to be a good parent if they can't eat...

I couldn't agree with you more.

Also, I believe ALL adults should work at least part-time. I know I'll get a disagreement from people, but hey, that's my view. There's no reason to fully stay home these days with all them modern convienences like refridgerators/insta-meals and schools having your kids for 8 hours a day (when they get to be that old, of course).

I dunno, maybe it's because I'm very un-baby oriented, but if I had I kid you best bet hubby would stay home for the first few years. My own career would be more of my orientation, I've been working toward independance my whole life, I wouldn't let a baby ruin that for me. Shit...it's unfair men have to miss all that stuff anyway because I know alot of guys that would love to be around for that stuff. But hopefully I don't ever have an "oopsie" and I won't have to deal with a child of my own.

I hope everything works out for you and your family, Sass! Do what makes you happy so long as your childrens are fed, how's that for advice?

[Rayne]

I couldn't agree with you more.

Also, I believe ALL adults should work at least part-time. I know I'll get a disagreement from people, but hey, that's my view. There's no reason to fully stay home these days with all them modern convienences like refridgerators/insta-meals and schools having your kids for 8 hours a day (when they get to be that old, of course).

I absolutely agree with you at a certain age. Mine are too young though and even then, the oldest has HUGE responsibility issues.

I'll probably end up putting them in daycare once I start working after school, but I should be clearing enough to pay for it at that point.

Right now, school and raising the kids is plenty enough work over here.

[Guest Megalicious]

Right now, school and raising the kids is plenty enough work over here.

I hear that , Its like working two FULL time jobs =)

[CandyQuackenbush]

I go to school 40 hrs/wk. Work 45-50 hrs/wk. Now I am collecting clients on my one day off. Plus be home by 430p on everyother Friday night so that I can get the munchkins.

I'm really hoping that this pulls through with the red cross. Granted yesh, I will be working 3-11:30p, but the pay will be so much better.

[Rayne]

I hear that , Its like working two FULL time jobs =)

This is less stressful than working full time, college full time and kids full time ... or high school full time and two jobs full time.

Back when I was 16 - 25, I could handle that without an issue ... but holy crap ... Now, I'd die.

[torn asunder]

no, I distinctly remmber using the word "squat"....

I dont know where your coming in on these psosts Mike so I'll just say go back up and look at where Im talking about living beyond your means with stuff you dont need and beans and rice and lentils. its in there somewhere, but I had probabluy not yet posted it when you addressed me.

anyway i dont want Sass in the Po House.

I am fond of Sass.

I'm simply saying to her for the record: "Babe, if you want to be a stay at home mom, then do whatever you have to do and God bless you for it cause I think its great"

sorry steven - again, i'm not making myself clear... i meant you didn't mention any of that in your first post, which was the one i took issue with. i do agree with you beyond that point, but again, what you propose isn't always feasible...

[Onyx]

I have worked from a home office since my youngest was 2. It's hard, way harder than working in an office and taking your kids to day care because you have to work around your kids but overall it's been worth it.

It's allowed me to be home with my kids when they were sick and a lot more freedom, and it sure beats having to live in a high crime neighborhood because you don't have the cash to pay for a decent place to live.

There are legit work at home jobs out there but you do have to be careful. If you can type and spell accurately medical and legal transcription are two very fast-growing fields. You'll need training first, but sometimes they will help pay your tuition if you sign on with the company first. A google search will bring up quite a few.

[phee]

I have worked from a home office since my youngest was 2. It's hard, way harder than working in an office and taking your kids to day care because you have to work around your kids but overall it's been worth it.

It's allowed me to be home with my kids when they were sick and a lot more freedom, and it sure beats having to live in a high crime neighborhood because you don't have the cash to pay for a decent place to live.

There are legit work at home jobs out there but you do have to be careful. If you can type and spell accurately medical and legal transcription are two very fast-growing fields. You'll need training first, but sometimes they will help pay your tuition if you sign on with the company first. A google search will bring up quite a few.

Onyx is cool

[SuZQZ]

Sass - You are not a bad parent, you are a responsible parent. If you and your husband are doing the best you can do, then what more can be asked of you. Also remember that as your babies grow older they will not sleep as much or go to bed quite as early. The first year is the roughest trying to figure it all out. Hopefully your employer will come through and your change in hours will become a reality or telecommuting will be an option. In the meantime,, get your resume out there and see if you get any nibbles for part-time work in finance or even some other type of work, if you really feel that's the way you should go.

Hang in there. It will get better. It's hard to not feel guilty, but try not to. You are doing the very best you can and you are providing for your family. Just keep actively looking for alternatives and hopefully something will pop up.

[Steven]

sorry steven - again, i'm not making myself clear... i meant you didn't mention any of that in your first post, which was the one i took issue with. i do agree with you beyond that point, but again, what you propose isn't always feasible...

your right, its not.

we all have to do the best we can....

about 4 months ago I had Laura quit her job - that sounds demanding.....I gave her my support is what i did - she was miserable, worked for assholes, and had a rough go last year with pnuemonia and viral infections and lived her daily life miserably at that place. And to top it off - we were still strugglign financially - somethign that I had not done in years, frankly not till I moved to Michigan from California...

When we took a hard look at it, the bottom line was that she was/is much more happy and healthy overall without that job. Laura works her ass off at home (I have a very big house on a ridiculously big lot) takes care of me, teaches dance skating part time which pays close to nothing but brings her great joy, helps me arragne my lesson plans for the classes I teach, and runs all the errands and takes care of all the loose ends. Which makes me much more happy overall, because my wife is relaxed and freed up to do what she does best: support me.

we function as a couple, really really well that way.

Ive been married to her for over 20 years.

We've been thur hard times financially, we've been thru very good times financially, have had middle ground years, and we know us - we know how thigns affect us long term as a couple.

Currently - we're tens of thousands of dollars upside down on this house, it costs way too much to heat in the winter, my sole income pays all the bills and insurance and monthly needs and whatnot. When we both worked - we were slightly inthe red. A few gigs here and there with the band and I had a few hundred extra dollars to throw at it to keep demise at bay. But it has always been at our heels since we moved here.

the bottom line truth is - we made some bad choices financially and career wise and in purchasing this particular home (my 2nd house) in first coming to michigan (I've had 4 jobs in 3 years) and we've struggled thru it ever since.

it was leaving us exhausted just keeping up.

and we did not want to live like that anymore.

thats not a purpose filled life, thats a survivor's life.

She did not "need" that job - it did not prevent us from struggling.

After looking at it all, what we needed to do was make some changes and take the hits along the way in order to move us back into a place of comfort aht would allow us to live the lifestyle that we beleive in.

but prices will have to be made.

that being said, this house will go back to the bank this summer and I'll very probably be a renter for the first time in many years, at least for a year or two. I will not be buying the truck I want and will stay in my little blue hoopty that is gay and yet great on gas. 50K a year used to be a respectable figure, but now its no where near enough without making some serious concessions.

And the truth is Mike - i have not sewn up a good complet plan yet -there are some hitches to work out that I frankly have not figure out yet. But thats not nearly as important to me as making teh changes needed to reach my goals - the rest I'll figure out along the way - and not by putting Lola back to work, those days are done and I need her in another capacity and she needs to be happy and healthy and has long since paid her dues.

a strange plan maybe, but we're cool with that.

so while I rebuild my credit (which is still very good but is about to take a huge shit) I'll be recording my album on the digital gear that i will buy with cash, from proceeds derived by NOT paying my large housenote anymore and NOT spending money on home upkeep and repairs that all houses need and by NOT paying for a truck i dont REALLY need and by making other convenience based concessions.

I'll also continue to be available for people in the way that Lola and I have committed ourselves to without the added stress and exhaustion that makes that very difficult. Right now I put in a good ten hours a day into wounded couples on top of 50 plus hour high stress work weeks on top of band commitments. And the truth is that when your working with wounded people its very rewarding and yet VERY exhausting as well. And I dont get paid for it, never have. and thats ok, thats not why i do it. I do it because I belevie its needed and because somebody did it for Lola and I and i beleive I have something to offer that affects this world and its legacy.

there are other things that I know I can do, and yet have been too tapped out to do properly. For example I have joked about writing a book. I currently have 13 chapters written that need to be fleshed out a bit and expanded on but the bulk of the ditch digging is done. I've been talking to people within the church and it looks like Ive got a publisher and even some possible seed money, but thats all pointless if I continue to live in a pressure filled lifestyle that leaves me exhausted, because my free time will continue to go to collapsing as opposed to being productive. And im always telling people to get involved with change - yet Im contradicting my own beleifs because I allow my personal state of beign to be so affected by a great many outside influences that I really have no control over, like recessions, and oil prices, and taxation, and the like. I only have so much control.....so I want to work with what control i curretnly DO have and do my best with it.

so what Im saying in all of this long ass soapboxing is that YES it is very difficult and YES its sometimes almost impossible to flesh out a completely solid working plan to make changes in yoru life that will support that which you desire but life goes on anyway - and you turn around and your like me, pretty but fat and balding and 41 years old and realizing that you'd better quit wasting opportunities becasue last week you were 31 and two weeks before that you were 21.

So again Sass, if you want to stay home and raise yoru kids the old fashioned way, I salute you. And I imagine your kids will be pretty impressive human beings when their time to lead comes up.

[Jadis]

You're not a horrible mom.... and it WILL be ok in the end.

I've got 3 kids. I work 40 hours a week. 8am - 4:30pm (Monday - Friday) and I'm usually out the door before my kids wake up. I also go to school 20 hours a week. 6pm - 11pm (Monday - Thursday). I am home after my kids are asleep. Sometimes I get to see them for a little bit before I go to school ... but sometimes I have to get right to the school to study for a test or whatever. Wednesday night and every other weekend, my kids are with their dad. .... it's HARD not being with your kids but what you're doing is going to benefit them in the long run. They're so young right now that they'll never remember you not being around that much.

I know that when my schooling is done in 6 more months and I land a kick-ass job, it will benefit me, my kids, and probably my ex-husband.

Just hang in there sweetie!!!! It'll all be alright.

[jadnifer]

I can't really offer much advice here, but I sincerely wish you the best on whatever you decide to do.

Always remember, you are NOT a horrible mom for feeling this way and working so that you can pay the bills and feed your babies.

[sass_in_the_pants]

You know what's so funny about this thread? There are SO many different opinions and I agree with every single one.

I never thought it would be like this. I always just assumed that I would have babies and go back to work. If anyone was going to stay home, it would be Guy because I make more money. The math was simple. But I never expected all of this. I never expected that I would be heartsick to leave my babies. Guy doesn't like being away from them either, but it just cuts me to the core to be gone from them for so long. I just think about people in the military who have to be away from their kids for YEARS at a time, and my heart just breaks.

And I feel silly even complaining about my situation. My husband and I both have good jobs, a cute house, a happy marriage, and two great healthy babies. It's like complaining that there's too much sunshine. But with the babies, honest, I just ADORE spending time with them, and every Sunday night I cry. That's my night to be sad because it will be FIVE whole days until I can hang out with them all day again.

Like Steven said, I'm in a stitch, and it's tough.

Gaf - thank you for the offer to help. I do currently have the capability, technology-wise to work from home. As a matter of fact, I did some of that last night. However, at my company the term 'work from home' is the equivalent of 'never stop working'. You are expected to work at the office during the day. If there is more work to be done, you are expected to stay at the office and finish it, or log in from home. These are the expectations and they are unwavering. Hey, I didn't make the rules. I just work there.

Rayne - You make VERY good points. I am looking for a new position right now. And my current job is definitely something that I can make a career out of. Right now, they want to promote me to a supervisor and I said no, hell no, but thanks, because, again, I'm not willing to put in those kinds of hours. Not right now. Guy just started his new job yesterday. He is really hopeful about it, and so am I. But, it's still a wait and see game. But, you're right, no leaving my job without insurance for the babies!! And the cost of daycare, oh my, the cost of daycare! Honestly, that's why we thought about having Guy stay home with the babies. Once you roll in the cost of daycre for two babies, he's working for like $4 an hour. But, he is really JUST getting started with his career, so it seems unfair to derail him now.

Steven - you're right. Fuck it. But then my mortgage company would fuck me, and that's one too many fucks for my taste. Downsizing. Yes, downsizing. To live off of Guy's pay, we're talking about alot more than eating beans and rice. The ONLY way we could make it on Guy's salary is to unload the house and even then, there's alot of trimming that would have to be done (good thing I like beans and rice). I'll be honest, it's a modest house. We probably pay less in mortgage than many people pay in rent. And, as you are all too aware, selling houses right now isn't working out so great.

HOWEVER, there IS a bright spot, which is that we MIGHT actually be able to unload the house and live somewhat rent-free. Guy's grandmother passed away last summer. Her house is completely paid off and right now Guy's younger brother is living there and just paying the taxes (which are nominal, a few hundred a month, if that). He doesn't want to continue living there. So, I said we could swap houses - either he could rent our place from us or we could sell him the house for nothing more than what is owed on the mortgage. But, financially, I'm not sure if his brother can swing either of those options. Either way, Guy has to talk to him about it. This week. Now. Except it's 6 am and they're both asleep. Okay, not quite now, but SOON now... The problem is that Guy doesn't like to talk about money. His brother doesn't like to talk about money. And the two of them need to sit down and have a conversation about money. Have you ever tried to dress a cat? It's kind of like that. And again, there IS room for 'negotiation'. If it's the case that his brother's son's daycare is holding him back financially, if I stay at home, I can watch his son during the day, and that would free up close to $200 a week. But the kid really likes his daycare, so I'm not sure if that is something they would do. Again, all of these options just need to be laid out on the table and decisions need to be made. I don't understand what's difficult about talking about money, but then again I work in finance, so all I do all day is talk about money.

Chernobyl - With all due respect, the math very often just doesn't work. Here's a typical situation. Let's say a mom makes $20 an hour, times 40 hours a week, is $800. Take out about 1/3 for taxes, and $40 a week for gas and you're at $500 a week that's actually yours to take home. Then you add the cost of daycare, which usually seems to run about $180 per kid, and let's say you have two kids. That leaves you with an extra $140 a week, and you divide that by 40 hours and you are now, in effect, working for $3.50 an hour. The math actually gets WORSE with a part-time job because often daycares will charge full rate for people who put their kids in part-time, and also, often you are not able to command as high of an hourly wage while working part-time. Our hypothetical $20 an hour mom would like get closer to $10-$15 for her part-time hours. And eventually your 'this shit ain't worth it' bell starts to ring, and you say fuck it and stay home.

Now, with all of that being said, if you ask moms, probably most of them would tell you, as they've told me, that working part-time would be ideal. The moms who work full-time jobs would LOVE to spend more time with their kids, and the moms who stay home entirely with the children know that they will eventually return to the workforce and would like to keep their skills fresh and a foot in the door. However, financially, working part-time is just not realistic for many families.

And, now, after I've gone through all of that, I would LOVE to work part-time. That would be perfect. Two or three days a week. And here's how the math works for me. If I work only a couple days a week, my mom can watch the kids. If I work five days a week, the kids have to go to daycare. Grandma's kinda old. Keeping up with two babies for a ten hour day is really hard on her. She could do it two or three times a week, but five days a week is too much for her. She's watching the babies now, and will do so until the end of May, but after that, it's daycare for them. So, I'm kind of looking for a solution by then. And in my field, there just isn't a ton of part-time work available. Accounting and finance just don't lend themselves to that sort of thing. I know, I looked. There were three. THree measly part-time jobs in accounting and they ALL pay significantly less than what I am currently paid.

Phee - you hit on the right word. Balance. It's all about balance. I am actually applying externally to some companies that I KNOW would pay me less but have better hours for me.

Balance. And that's really what I'm trying to find - what situation would be the best for my family? I don't want to be away from my kids all the time, but then again, I don't want to be living on the edge with one broken washing machine being the difference between making it and not making it.

Odmis - that is EXACTLY my worry. What kind of a mom would I be if the bad decision making that I did got our HOUSE taken away? What kind of a mom would I be if my babies went to bed hungry? And I'll be honest, my reasons for wanting to stay home are really quite selfish. I don't want to miss out on their lives. What kind of a mom makes a decision that is good for her and bad for her babies?

So, I'm applying around to part-time jobs and full-time jobs with better hours. We'll see how all of this goes...

And to everyone who said I'm not a horrible mom, thank you. Sometimes, that's just what you need to hear.

[Steven]

I hope that ideal situation comes thru for you, I really do.

and a mothers selfishness in wanting to be with her babies all day....I think modern era thinking has switched natural maternal desire for the word selfish.....honestly I hate that word when it comes to children - I see it as a form of propoganda - and say YES be selfish, they will one day thank you for it and be better adjusted simply for years of your constant presence and daily influence as opposed to after 5 PM influence. How we've turned that into a bad thing is amazing to me. How we've turned four or five hours a day plus TV time plus Nintendo time into "quality time" is pretty scary to me. I feel like we've got barbarians at the gate and were bringing them cookies.

I get what you mean about the over fucking part.

Im going thru it - and this is coming from a man who has owned a couple of houses now and made a very comfortable living in S Cal. Now Im just an average Joe in MI living on 50K and struggling. well no....I WAS Struggling, once we made that decision togethor the stress went away, really.

I'll take the hit, fuck it hit me again. we all have to decide on what constitutes "quality of life".

for me and Laura - it has to be the happiness of US first - everything else is a very distant second. Whatever I have to do to protect that happiness is whatever I have to do.

good luck babe.