Lawsuit, Religion, Photography, Gay Couple

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

That is so a grey area.

I mean... look at it like this... Who's law is "higher" in the eyes of a "true believer" the laws of Man or the Laws of God.?

Say you belong to a faith that believes that say... all people with natural red hair are children of what ever that faiths version of evil is... and it is a directive from said faiths Deity that they all must be shunned and cast out of a believers life... So, you refuse to do business with anyone with red hair... is that discrimination? or is it practicing your religion? Should you be forced to break the laws of your God?

[phee]

That is so a grey area.

I mean... look at it like this... Who's law is "higher" in the eyes of a "true believer" the laws of Man or the Laws of God.?

Say you belong to a faith that believes that say... all people with natural red hair are children of what ever that faiths version of evil is... and it is a directive from said faiths Deity that they all must be shunned and cast out of a believers life... So, you refuse to do business with anyone with red hair... is that discrimination? or is it practicing your religion? Should you be forced to break the laws of your God?

It is discrimination...

Just because "God" told the 9/11 highjackers to kill Americans... doesn't excuse it.... (this is an extreme example but it is to make a point).

When in Rome... do as the Romans do....

[Msterbeau]

I look at it this way... Faith is a choice. It's variable. That's not to say that people believe any less devoutly... But we all live on EARTH... We have to live with one another no matter what your faith dictates. The rule of men and of law has to take precedence.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I look at it this way... Faith is a choice. It's variable. That's not to say that people believe any less devoutly... But we all live on EARTH... We have to live with one another no matter what your faith dictates. The rule of men and of law has to take precedence.

uh-huh... and what about after this life? to those who truly believe that they are going to go to hell or heaven after they die...

I'm all for Freedom of Religion. You can keep your facist controls.

[TygerLili]

If you make a stupid business decision then you probably deserve to go bankrupt.

Businesses today operate on the premise that the customer is always right. Yes, businesses have the right to decide that the don't want to work with someone, but any savy business person either takes all the jobs that they can possibly handle, or gives a polite reason for turning down an offer. The world may not operate on play-nice-rules like DGN does, but in our modern world you're just not going to get very far if you can't be respectful of people who hold different beliefs than yours.

I don't feel that this photographer should be forced to serve them at all, but I do think she needs to dig her head out of the sand and realize that it's 2008 and an openly biggoted outlook won't do in today's society. I also think the couple is making a mountain out of a molehill and could just as easily find another photographer and let it rest, but I suspect their reason for pursuing this has more to do with spreading word about the company's business practices than seeking monetary retribution.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

btw... ask a Constitutional lawyer what has more weight... The constitution or some local/state Law...

[Steven]

That is so a grey area.

I mean... look at it like this... Who's law is "higher" in the eyes of a "true believer" the laws of Man or the Laws of God.?

Say you belong to a faith that believes that say... all people with natural red hair are children of what ever that faiths version of evil is... and it is a directive from said faiths Deity that they all must be shunned and cast out of a believers life... So, you refuse to do business with anyone with red hair... is that discrimination? or is it practicing your religion? Should you be forced to break the laws of your God?

this is exactly what I meant.

with the adder that I truly beleive no one was hurt here - this was not a refusal for shelter, food, aid, clothing, etc. This was not a basic himan need that was denied. I understand the context of the arguments, but I likewise believe that the context of the issue should be considered as well - and the vehemence of opposition should be measured in light of the "crime" that occurred.

There is the theory behind the reasoning.

and there is also the nitty gritty end result of somebody possibly losing their livelihood (which some of you support) because they did not take photographs.

People turn away from basic social needs and opression every day - things that DO involve food, shelter, protection, etc. But deny a gay couple some photographs and holy shit lets get a rope.

Id be curious to know how many of these people that are so up in arms are so concerend with the common good of man actually practice a "give back" lifestyle habitually?

[Steven]

When in Rome... do as the Romans do....

not all Romans think alike.

[Steven]

I look at it this way... Faith is a choice. It's variable. That's not to say that people believe any less devoutly... But we all live on EARTH... We have to live with one another no matter what your faith dictates. The rule of men and of law has to take precedence.

Marc - you have to remember that some faiths or faith based approaches do not line up with this thinking.

[Steven]

By the way.....theres lots of Christian Bookstores that sell ONLY Christian music, literature, and products.

yes they cater to a specific culture, but their doors remain open for all.

Should we be able to impose upon them "alternative" literature, in an effort to get along?

[know_buddy_kares]

By the way.....theres lots of Christian Bookstores that sell ONLY Christian music, literature, and products.

yes they cater to a specific culture, but their doors remain open for all.

Should we be able to impose upon them "alternative" literature, in an effort to get along?

that's different steven, and you know it...

they won't kick out a gay couple... they'll let them buy all their christian based merchendice and appreciate their business. I honestly wonder why some people can't handle a person's choice to lead a different lifestyle and it gets to be this big of a deal amongst other people (not talking about anyone on dgn in this discussion) who've heard about it.

I think someone should show this to the evangelical photographer lady...

[Steven]

that's different steven, and you know it...

they won't kick out a gay couple... they'll let them buy all their christian based merchendice and appreciate their business. I honestly wonder why some people can't handle a person's choice to lead a different lifestyle and it gets to be this big of a deal amongst other people (not talking about anyone on dgn in this discussion) who've heard about it.

I think someone should show this to the evangelical photographer lady...

dang. admittedly bad example

[TygerLili]

I think someone should show this to the evangelical photographer lady...

That's so wrong! But it made me laugh...

[Msterbeau]

Marc - you have to remember that some faiths or faith based approaches do not line up with this thinking.

I'm very aware of that. And I would say to them... Until you get to paradise or heaven or wherever your faith says you go in the afterlife... You're on earth. You have to deal with and make accommodations for others and if you can't do that, expect to have a difficult life.

And I'm sure there are people who will say to me: I'll do whatever I have to to be true to my faith. And they will discriminate, and hurt and kill, all in the name of their faith because they refuse to see that humanity and this planet we live should be our most important priority.

[Msterbeau]

By the way.....theres lots of Christian Bookstores that sell ONLY Christian music, literature, and products.

yes they cater to a specific culture, but their doors remain open for all.

Should we be able to impose upon them "alternative" literature, in an effort to get along?

Oddly... there are gay Christians.

[Kit Kat P]

Oddly... there are gay Christians.

I'd be one, and I have been asked to leave christian bookstores. I didn't sue, nor will I. It's not worth it.

[Steven]

Oddly... there are gay Christians.

I know.

even know a couple.

oddly there are Mexican Christians too....

[phee]

I'd be one, and I have been asked to leave christian bookstores. I didn't sue, nor will I. It's not worth it.

let me guess though... you did not try to shop there again?

[Steven]

I'd be one, and I have been asked to leave christian bookstores. I didn't sue, nor will I. It's not worth it.

thats wrong to put you out as a seeker - thats different from accquiring services. A Christian bookstore is a retail outlet as a secondary extension of a missions based presence for the community.

although I would not petition to shut that store down (because I believe in and swore in to defend freedom of choice - even bad choices) I would definately confront that owner and managing staff in a public manner from within the confines of the store itself in a "whom do you serve??" approach.

anybody who serves the body of christ is accoutable to the body itself - this is not a sect or specific church based ideal but is a biblical format that includes every beleiver. In that setting - we have the ability and responsibility to reproach as needed in light of the example of Christ himself.

which is exactly why a lawsuit would solve nothing. A lawsuit creates an "us against them" mentality.

a challange to the body from within the body however - creates a healthy sense of burdon to the biblical standard.

in retrospect - I've been asked to silence myself and or seperate myself from a particular (and VERY well known) ministry network for things I've said both on camera and onstage at the whiskey in Hollywood about this specific sort of thing your talking about. In one case it cost me a record deal.

[Steven]

I'm very aware of that. And I would say to them... Until you get to paradise or heaven or wherever your faith says you go in the afterlife... You're on earth. You have to deal with and make accommodations for others and if you can't do that, expect to have a difficult life.

And I'm sure there are people who will say to me: I'll do whatever I have to to be true to my faith. And they will discriminate, and hurt and kill, all in the name of their faith because they refuse to see that humanity and this planet we live should be our most important priority.

i know what you mean here Marc, but really allof us choose to place our own ideals on top of others from time to time. this is basic human behaviour - you choose what you feel in the moment is most valuable to you.

have any of you noticed that not once did I take issue with the homosexuals in this case? What my main concern is - is that people are imposing thier own wills on the wills of these ultra conservatives under attack under the "Majority Rules / when in Rome" method.

On earth, I have a responsibilty to honor both God and Man, but i have to honor God first.

to do so does not mean I get to discriminate hurt and kill. "Discrimination" is still open to interpretation to a certain degree. Shade seemed to elude to the fact that I dont understand discrimination but the truth is I understand it deeply and personally. BUT - I STILL do not beleive a public uproar is the solution in this particular case - all that does is further polarize the camps.

[phee]

The question (all faith issues aside) is what the photographer did legal in this context considering the laws in there area? If the answer is "no" then they should have to deal with the consequences and perhaps try to get the law changed....

If the answer is "yes" then there is no issue... they are just discriminating legally, take it or leave it.

The laws in this country don't say "All must obey the law unless it conflicts with your beliefs" ... if that were the case then what the 9/11 Highjackers did would be legal.

[Kit Kat P]

let me guess though... you did not try to shop there again?

Actually I have, I just don't go in when it's people that know I'm gay. My mom sends me to get things for her and I don't want to have to explain it or hurt her anymore than I already have. And one of the stores that quietly asked me to leave assumed I was w/ the girl because we were hanging on each other, she is straight and we are just really good friends. But maybe I'm just too stubborn.

[Steven]

The question (all faith issues aside) is what the photographer did legal in this context considering the laws in there area? If the answer is "no" then they should have to deal with the consequences and perhaps try to get the law changed....

If the answer is "yes" then there is no issue... they are just discriminating legally, take it or leave it.

The laws in this country don't say "All must obey the law unless it conflicts with your beliefs" ... if that were the case then what the 9/11 Highjackers did would be legal.

hence my insistence that the entire sitch should be reviewed in context with the damges done, the parties involved, and the long term impact to the community at large.

if we used the straight up literal black and white application of "laws" then half the people in DGN would go to jail for silliness such as butt boofing and pot smoking and just deal with the consequences.

there are black and white laws - "Dont taze me bro" 9-11 keeps coming up and yet no one is arguing against very obvious extremism that is intended to do harm and destroy life.

and there are shades of gray - in this case - some pictures that were not taken - as in all aspects of life. The problem here in this discussion is that you want to push all faith issues aside to make a bottom line decision - I get that. And I want to allow for the faith based action to make a foundational decision.

Ive never said that the gay couple did not have a right to be angry. Didint even hint at it.

[phee]

Actually I have, I just don't go in when it's people that know I'm gay. My mom sends me to get things for her and I don't want to have to explain it or hurt her anymore than I already have. And one of the stores that quietly asked me to leave assumed I was w/ the girl because we were hanging on each other, she is straight and we are just really good friends. But maybe I'm just too stubborn.

I am sorry that you have to do that...

[Steven]

Actually I have, I just don't go in when it's people that know I'm gay. My mom sends me to get things for her and I don't want to have to explain it or hurt her anymore than I already have. And one of the stores that quietly asked me to leave assumed I was w/ the girl because we were hanging on each other, she is straight and we are just really good friends. But maybe I'm just too stubborn.

I would like to know what store this is, and where if you are comfy with that.