Lawsuit: Huge Atom Smasher Could Destroy World

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Stop the scientists before they destroy us all!

That's what a Hawaii man with a background in nuclear physics is asking a court to do.

Walter F. Wagner and his colleague Luis Sancho have filed a federal lawsuit seeking to stop work on the Large Hadron Collider, a gigantic atom smasher on the Franco-Swiss border that's set to start operations in May.

Physicists hope its incredible energies will form briefly-lived new particles that could shed light on the origins of the universe, among other marvels.

The plaintiffs' concerns? That the LHC could accidentally create strange new particles that would instantly transform any matter they touched, engulfing the Earth, or, even worse, make a rapidly expanding black hole that could consume the entire planet.

"[T]he compression of the two atoms colliding together at nearly light speed will cause an irreversible implosion, forming a miniature version of a giant black hole," reads the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Honolulu.

"[A]ny matter coming into contact with it would fall into it and never be able to escape. Eventually, all of earth would fall into such growing micro-black-hole, converting earth into a medium-sized black hole, around which would continue to orbit the moon, satellites, the ISS, etc."

Not included among the documents is Wagner's own indictment last month on identity-theft charges tied to an ongoing legal battle over a botanical garden on the Big Island of Hawaii, but you can read about that here.

Most physicists say Wagner's worries are unfounded. Micro black holes would evaporate nearly instantly instead of combining to form larger ones, they say, and the "strangelet" particles he frets would freeze the world would in fact fall apart quickly.

Wagner's own background is a bit fuzzy. He claims to have minored in physics at U.C. Berkeley, gone to law school, taught elementary-school science and worked in nuclear medicine at health facilities — but he doesn't appear to have an advanced degree in science.

Sancho's qualifications are even murkier, but the lawsuit identifies him as a Spanish citizen residing in the U.S., even if his presence makes the entire case a bit, um, quixotic.

Fears that atom smashers will destroy the world have been around for decades and seem to come to the fore every time a new well-publicized facility comes online.

But no particle accelerator has ever come close to the power of the Large Hadron Collider

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I know his thoughts are way out there... at least to most people... and most physicists say he is being an alarmist... but..

go ask a physicist what would happen if two cosmic rays (single protons blown out of super nova, usually) happen to collide at near light speed. You answer will be along the lines of.. "The phase shift caused would spread at the speed of light in all directions, dropping the mean temperature of the universe by one or two degrees." Which translates to "The universe would freeze solid.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The kind of things that can sometimes happen are a lot more bizarre than science fiction and who knows what bizarre stuff might be uncovered at some point. Particle physics and quantum mechanics really are fascinating (and very hard to get your mind around). This type of concern has been brought up now and again since the early days of applied nuclear science. In theory it really could happen but I'm guessing the likelihood is insanely low or they would have imploded the universe already heh.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Actually, it's happened twice. At least, two cosmic rays have collised at near light speed twice. Once was about 5min after the big bang and the other was about a billion years later. It's why the universe isn't as much a High energy place as it once was.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I guess i assumed "in the future" without actually stating it.

[torn asunder]

Actually, it's happened twice. At least, two cosmic rays have collised at near light speed twice. Once was about 5min after the big bang and the other was about a billion years later. It's why the universe isn't as much a High energy place as it once was.

not calling you a liar at all, but..

how the fuck do they *know* that!?!? there's no way they can claim *as fact* that this happened 5min. after the big bang - no possible way to have imperical evidence of such an event. they might be able to infer that it might have happened, but that's it... and how old is the universe? roughly 15 billion yrs, ± a couple billion!? how could they prove it happened 14 billion years ago, either!? there is no proof, only likelyhood, and the thought that we can say with any kind of accuacy what happened 14 billion years ago, is a bit silly, imo...

[Destroit]

not calling you a liar at all, but..

how the fuck do they *know* that!?!? there's no way they can claim *as fact* that this happened 5min. after the big bang - no possible way to have imperical evidence of such an event. they might be able to infer that it might have happened, but that's it... and how old is the universe? roughly 15 billion yrs, ± a couple billion!? how could they prove it happened 14 billion years ago, either!? there is no proof, only likelyhood, and the thought that we can say with any kind of accuacy what happened 14 billion years ago, is a bit silly, imo...

Hmmmm, can't fight logic. I'm with you on this one. There are only theories, loose theories at that.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Chernobyl

[boshy]

I know I only have a minor in college physics, but i do have a 4.0 in that subject (I also have a major in mathematics which helps when you need to figure out the physics.)

The ferocity of a black hole comes from the intense gravitational pull of a large amount of matter concentrated into a very small point. Gravity is caused by the presence of matter. The more matter, the more gravity. You need a great quantity of matter to get any pulling (or in the case of a black hole) sucking action. This is why we don‘t fly off of the Earth because it has a lot of matter. But we are still able to lift our feet and walk instead of sticking all the way. What gives? The Earth’s force of gravity, while pretty big is not all that great. Even though we are made out of matter the gravity we have as individuals is minute or we would all stick together. We’re talking particle accelerator here. As in atomic particle. Protons = 1 Atomic Mass Unit = 1.66053X10^-24 of a gram. Any black hole created would only affect an equivalent amount of matter.

It says this guy has a background in physics which is called “a bit fuzzy”. What did he just read a book? Or go the library and check one out for a week?

No ladies and gents I don’t think that we need to put our heads between our legs and kiss our ass’s goodbye quite yet. You can check my background, the State of Michigan requires every teacher’s be posted (You can also check out your kids' teachers too if you want Just hit "New Search").

https://mdoe.state.mi.us/teachercert/dt_teaCerts.asp?lic_nbr=CC-2C0930437722

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

m=m0*y

With your minor in physics you should have learned that a matter accelerates toward the speed of light it's mass increases exponentially until infinite mass is achieved at light speed.

This accelerator is going to be accelerating matter to near light speeds. So near infinite mass.

Relativity, it's a cool thing.

Mike, I'll answer that later.

[Msterbeau]

Cool. I'm sick of this planet anyways.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

from answers.com

Safety concerns and assurances

As with previous particle accelerators, people both inside and outside the physics community have voiced concern that the LHC might trigger one of several theoretical disasters capable of destroying the Earth or even the entire Universe. This has raised controversy as to whether any such risks outweigh the potential benefits of constructing and operating the LHC.

Though the standard model predicts that LHC energies are far too low to create black holes, some nonstandard theories lower the requirements, and predict that the LHC will create tiny black holes[8][9], with potentially devastating consequences. The primary cause for concern is that Hawking Radiation - a postulated means by which any such black holes would dissipate before becoming dangerous, remains entirely theoretical. In academia, the theory of Hawking Radiation is considered plausible, but there remains considerable question of whether it is correct.[10]

Other disaster scenarios typically involve the following theoretical events:

Creation of strange matter that is more stable than ordinary matter

Creation of magnetic monopoles that could catalyze proton decay

Creation of a strangelet

CERN has pointed out that the probability of such events is extremely small. One argument for the safety of colliders such as the LHC states that if the Earth were in danger of any such fate, the Earth and Moon would have met that fate billions of years ago due to their constant bombardment from space by protons, other particles, and cosmic rays, which are millions of times more energetic than anything that could be produced by the LHC.[11]

Quantum calculations presented in the CERN report predict that:

Any black holes created by the LHC are not expected to be stable and will not accrete matter.

Any monopoles that could catalyse the decay of matter will quickly exit the Earth.[12]

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

PBS - Nova

short movie here about it.

[Homicidalheathen]

The Quiet Earth

Year: 1985

Production: Cinepro / Pillsbury

Director: Geoff Murphy

Starring: Bruno Lawrence, Alison Routledge, Peter Smith

Screenwriter: Bill Baer, Bruno Lawrence, Sam Pillsbury

Based on The Quiet Earth (1981) by Craig Harrison

91 minutes; Color

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This New Zealand film tells of a scientific/metaphysical disaster, perhaps consequent upon a secret project in energy transmission, in which all people disappear from the Earth except those who coincidentally die at the moment of the disaster: these are resurrected. A guilt-ridden scientist plays a solitary games in a deserted city; he meets a woman survivor and then a tough Maori, with the usual male rivalry ensuing. The scientist realizes the fabric of the Universe has become unstable and tries to put it right, with interesting results. A small, low-key, honest film, suffering from a derivative storyline and rather pedestrian direction and performances.

The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction

It reminds me of this movie........lets hope life doesn't imitate art, eh?

[ttogreh]

I'm not going to worry about it. It's not like it would hurt.

[Destroit]

m=m0*y

With your minor in physics you should have learned that a matter accelerates toward the speed of light it's mass increases exponentially until infinite mass is achieved at light speed.

This accelerator is going to be accelerating matter to near light speeds. So near infinite mass.

Relativity, it's a cool thing.

Mike, I'll answer that later.

Actually, the mass decreases exponentially. E=MC2 states that as matter speeds up it turns into energy, doesn't gain gravity, just the opposite.

[ttogreh]

Energy = mass * celeritas (speed of light in a vacuum) Squared. So, that means that an object with a mass of one gram has 8.98755179 × 10^13 Joules of energy inside of it. Let's make that a round 9 Joules, shall we?

A kilowatt hour has 3,600,000 joules in it.

These particles are microscopic. They aren't anywhere near a gram. Seriously, I am not worried in the slightest.

[Destroit]

Energy = mass * celeritas (speed of light in a vacuum) Squared. So, that means that an object with a mass of one gram has 8.98755179 × 10^13 Joules of energy inside of it. Let's make that a round 9 Joules, shall we?

A kilowatt hour has 3,600,000 joules in it.

These particles are microscopic. They aren't anywhere near a gram. Seriously, I am not worried in the slightest.

Also true.

From my understanding also if we were to make microscopic black holes, we wouldn't all get sucked into it and it wouldn't expand. That's entirely ridiculous. After sucking in a certain amount of matter it would equal out the black hole, literally cancelling it out.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

E=MC2 is Energy It's the amount of stored energy in matter and has nothing to do with Speed or Intertia.

Microspopic is not the right word. Sub-atomic is.

Now, stop looking at one famous formula of Relativty and look at all of it. E=MC2 is one part of Relativty.

As I stated above... m=m0*y

At the speed of light, every things mass is infinite. So even a single photon with a mass of 1 has infinite mass at the speed of light.

and just so you know.. as I linked above, admit there is a small chance that black holes wil form... under 5%... but others think it is as high as 12%. The people doing this beleive they will degrade to fast to be a danger... they dont actually have any math to suppor that though.

I dont understand why people are so damn flippant about this. They ignore the real science and focus on the parts thats support what they already think and ignore everything else. You can't take a buffet approach to physics. It's all of nothing.

Don't get me wrong. I really dont think the risk is high enough to really worry about... but there is a risk and people should know about it. I really don;t think we should go into this project ignoring the danger... we need to take this slow and see hwat happens before he turn the thing on full blast.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and tt... the super particle from the big bang... was sub-atomic too. Size doesn not matter at all when it comes to Quantum mechanics.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Lets do some math.

1 Kilogram of Water.

Has just about exactly 111grams of Hydrogen.

So, .0111 Kilograms

0.111 x 300,000,000 x 300,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules

but to relese that energy,the water has to come in contact with an eqaul amount of anti-matter.

E=MC2 explained

Basics of Relativity

[boshy]

Lets do some math.

1 Kilogram of Water.

Has just about exactly 111grams of Hydrogen.

So, .0111 Kilograms

0.111 x 300,000,000 x 300,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules

but to relese that energy,the water has to come in contact with an eqaul amount of anti-matter.

E=MC2 explained

Basics of Relativity

You studied physics at which university?

Are you a physics professor?

You win what ever you say.

I don't know where you get your information from but I consider it faulty.

This topic has become like discussing religion or politics.I am abandoning this debate. I work for a living and can't spend my days typing on dgn all day.Plus I don't want to.

[ttogreh]

It really doesn't matter Boshy. People smarter than me will explain exactly why the subatomic particles will not cause any danger to the world or to the people operating the LHC... in court.

Hopefully, all of this will be resolved quite thoroughly.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

OK, discount all proof as usual. It doesn't support your preconceived notions.

[Destroit]

OK, discount all proof as usual. It doesn't support your preconceived notions.

No, it just plain doesn't support physics.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

uh-huh. My links are everythign I have said are from pages.. written by physics profs.