Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[Steven]

Hello Spooky Kids.

read, consider, and discuss:

Police Call Church Music 'Disorderly'

By Fred Lucas

CNSNews.com Staff Writer

March 26, 2008

(CNSNews.com) - A Michigan church filed a federal lawsuit after police officers, led by a local prosecutor, entered the sanctuary at least twice without a warrant, alleging the church's music was too loud. In one instance, they threatened to arrest church musicians for disorderly conduct.

Faith Baptist Church, with a congregation of about 10,000 members, is suing local officials in the Township of Waterford, Mich., in a First Amendment case a church attorney said could have national ramifications in establishing what local governments can do in regulating churches.

The suit -- alleging the township violated the church's freedom of religious expression, freedom of speech and freedom of association -- was filed earlier this month in U.S. District Court in Detroit after the church had been subject to what it describes as raids by the Waterford Police Department, led by township prosecutor Walter Bedell.

At least one of those raids occurred during a Sunday service, according to the suit.

The church played contemporary Christian music that included guitars, drums, and other instruments. Township officials contend they were simply trying to enforce local noise laws and that the church is being a bad neighbor.

But "praise and worship" music is a form of religious expression, said Richard Thompson, president of the Thomas More Law Center, a public interest Christian law firm representing the church.

"This is subterfuge to try to interfere with religious exercise that Faith Baptist Church has," Thompson told Cybercast News Service. "The prosecutor and uniformed police officers violated their Fourth Amendment rights. They were not invited. They burst into the church. Unless they had an arrest warrant or a search warrant, they had no right to go there except for worship."

Bedell said the matter has nothing to do with religious expression. He said he has received more than 10 written complaints about the noise from the church.

"The whole issue is not with the type of music - it's the music and the volume, and people who are in their own homes trying to sleep, eat, and spend time with their children," Bedell told Cybercast News Service.

"I have no problem with music. I play the guitar myself. This is about the volume of music and people who were not able to live normal lives in their own home," he added.

The matter with police began during a Wednesday night youth service in October 2007 when uniformed police officers led by Bedell entered the church's sanctuary where the church's band was practicing, according to the lawsuit.

Bedell then ordered police to take down the names and addresses of all the people on the stage so they could be charged with disorderly conduct.

The following Sunday, Waterford Township Police returned, during an evening church service, the Thomas More Law Center said.

Officers were about to forcibly remove band members and order them to surrender their driver's licenses and personal information before an assistant pastor at the church volunteered to bring the musical band members to the police station to avoid an uproar in the congregation.

Faith Senior Pastor Jim Combs told the attorneys he was approached by other uniformed police officers who apologized but also said they had to follow orders from the local officials. Combs is deferring comment on the case to the law center, a church receptionist said Tuesday.

Attorneys for the township of Waterford are still working on a response to the lawsuit. But certain facts will likely be in dispute.

According to the plaintiff, Bedell told Combs on tape that the church was playing rock music and Bedell didn't consider that appropriate church music.

Bedell denies saying that.

Further, Township Supervisor Carl Solden said that police never entered the church during a service, only when the band was having a practice session.

"A neighbor complained, and the police department responded, as they do in all cases - it's a service organization," Solden told Cybercast News Service. "I can't imagine a church that didn't want to get along with its neighbors. I would think 'love thy neighbor' would enter into this somewhere."

Solden said the township only wanted the church to tone down their music. While he admitted there was consideration about charging church members with disorderly conduct, he stressed that action was never taken and that no church member was arrested or detained.

"It's uncanny that it would go this far," Solden said. "It's unfortunate because it could have been resolved."

"For them to say this was surprising is disingenuous," said Thompson. He further noted that the township's noise ordinance of no more than 70 decibels is rarely enforced and, if it were, would essentially outlaw lawnmowers and snow blowers.

[pharoh]

I say rock on and get your praise on.

[Steven]

I say rock on and get your praise on.

with a Les Paul and a Marshall

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I don't think you will get too much support here Steven. Too many people on DGN would love to see all things Christian snuffed out.

[Steven]

I don't think you will get too much support here Steven. Too many people on DGN would love to see all things Christian snuffed out.

oh I'm sure that's true.....not really looking for support here though.....

[Msterbeau]

I don't think you will get too much support here Steven. Too many people on DGN would love to see all things Christian snuffed out.

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

[Destroit]

Actually, as a Christian, I don't see how this has to do with Christianity so much as disturbing the peace.

The same thing happened in Hamtramck with the muslim people there, the people who weren't muslim were mad that they constantly had to hear the call to prayer BLASTING out of speakers and going all over town.

I think if you're being too loud and distubing the peace then you should have to be more quiet. Just because they're Christian doesn't mean they're above the law...unless they're Jesus. Jesus is above the law .

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

Oh? i seem to recall you tossing a fit recently because someone was forced to follow the rules and remove a piercing.

[Msterbeau]

Christian doesn't mean they're above the law...unless they're Jesus. Jesus is above the law .

And Kwame.

[Msterbeau]

Oh? i seem to recall you tossing a fit recently because someone was forced to follow the rules and remove a piercing.

And that has what to do with this?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

Just replace the word "Christians" with what ever you like to call the freaky sub-culture we all belong to.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and if that doesn't clear it up for you... it's called hypocrisy.

[Kit Kat P]

Not going to try to play the middle here, but the churches I went to all played the music loud. Loud enough that you always hear the music at least half a block away. Now if most business did this they would have been cited and ticketed. You have a church of 10,000 and the music IS going to be even louder. And I've seen band leaders say well our neighbors need to feel the love God w/ our music so let's let it be heard down the street.

If you were of a different religion, or not religion, it's rather presumptuous to think that the neighboring area wants or needs to hear your music repeatedly, especially if it's only a practice session.

I think the police and the church should have handled this better. I also think that the church doesn't really know what a raid looks like if they think that just a few cops interrupting a jam session is a full on raid.

On a side note, I don't think that there are that many people on DGN that want to see all things Christian snuffed out. It's more a matter of Jesus save me from your followers, kind of thought.

[phee]

On a side note, I don't think that there are that many people on DGN that want to see all things Christian snuffed out. It's more a matter of Jesus save me from your followers, kind of thought.

[Msterbeau]

Just replace the word "Christians" with what ever you like to call the freaky sub-culture we all belong to.

The woman in question was hardly gothy or whatever... My defense of her had nothing to do with our subculture and everything to do with the rules and common decency. Not a whole lot different then here. You're barking up the wrong tree.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Feel free to assume the Church is wrong and the Police/Prosecutor did everything all proper and buy the book.

This case has nothing similar to the one where you took the side of the citizen over the side of the government without knowing all the pertinent facts.

I'm not going to argue about it.

Your bias is showing.

[Msterbeau]

Feel free to assume the Church is wrong and the Police/Prosecutor did everything all proper and buy the book.

This case has nothing similar to the one where you took the side of the citizen over the side of the government without knowing all the pertinent facts.

I'm not going to argue about it.

Your bias is showing.

If the story never mentioned a thing about Christianity, my opinion would be the same. The church got a little too loud.

[freydis]

Not going to try to play the middle here, but the churches I went to all played the music loud. Loud enough that you always hear the music at least half a block away. Now if most business did this they would have been cited and ticketed. You have a church of 10,000 and the music IS going to be even louder. And I've seen band leaders say well our neighbors need to feel the love God w/ our music so let's let it be heard down the street.

If you were of a different religion, or not religion, it's rather presumptuous to think that the neighboring area wants or needs to hear your music repeatedly, especially if it's only a practice session.

I think the police and the church should have handled this better. I also think that the church doesn't really know what a raid looks like if they think that just a few cops interrupting a jam session is a full on raid.

On a side note, I don't think that there are that many people on DGN that want to see all things Christian snuffed out. It's more a matter of Jesus save me from your followers, kind of thought.

Good post.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

If the story never mentioned a thing about Christianity, my opinion would be the same. The church got a little too loud.

You don't know that to be a fact. You assume it. You assume the Prosecutor is not abusing his power.

and I assume that you assume that, because you are one of the anti-Christians.

[Destroit]

I dunno, Gaf, not to get myself in the middle but I really don't see how Marc is being a hypocrite.

Church was very loud, church needed to stop being loud. That's logic.

Women wears a small piece of metal on her body and is humiliated and forced to pull them out with pliers, there's violation of decency because they're private parts (there was no violation of the church's private parts....omfg...that was so wrong, I'm so going to hell), workers violate the company's own policy. Not logic.

It's not biased really, imo, just logical.

[TygerLili]

I do think that the church should have to follow the same noise ordinance rules as everyone else. Maybe the officers caused an unnecessary disruption in entering the church during a service. Like so many other articles posted here, we don't get to hear all the details.

That said, I think buying a house next to a church is kind of like buying a house next to a night club or a train station. No matter how much they try to keep it down, if you can't stand a little noise now and then it's probably a bad choice to live there.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

and there is that whole "Congress shall make no law..."

[bean]

Not going to try to play the middle here, but the churches I went to all played the music loud. Loud enough that you always hear the music at least half a block away. Now if most business did this they would have been cited and ticketed. You have a church of 10,000 and the music IS going to be even louder. And I've seen band leaders say well our neighbors need to feel the love God w/ our music so let's let it be heard down the street.

If you were of a different religion, or not religion, it's rather presumptuous to think that the neighboring area wants or needs to hear your music repeatedly, especially if it's only a practice session.

I think the police and the church should have handled this better. I also think that the church doesn't really know what a raid looks like if they think that just a few cops interrupting a jam session is a full on raid.

On a side note, I don't think that there are that many people on DGN that want to see all things Christian snuffed out. It's more a matter of Jesus save me from your followers, kind of thought.

Very good post.

________________________________________________________

A noise ordinance is a noise ordinance. I don't want to hear church music from the church that is at the end of the block just as much as I don't want to hear the shitty Atheist-anarchist punk band practicing in a garage a few houses away.

Though, I'm sure that if it was an Atheist-anarchist punk band playing in a public building they more than likely would have gotten ticketed and probably thrown in jail.

[Steven]

It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with disturbing the peace. You guys make every fucking slight against Christians into a cause for martyrdom. Enough already.

well thats an opinion Mark, I get that.

Under the guise of disturbing the peace.....since this was a church situation.....does it feel like a heavy metal party after 11 PM or something?

remember this is inside of a religeous facility, liscensed to gather large groups of people, set up with sound equipment etc.

[Steven]

I do think that the church should have to follow the same noise ordinance rules as everyone else. Maybe the officers caused an unnecessary disruption in entering the church during a service. Like so many other articles posted here, we don't get to hear all the details.

That said, I think buying a house next to a church is kind of like buying a house next to a night club or a train station. No matter how much they try to keep it down, if you can't stand a little noise now and then it's probably a bad choice to live there.

Careful Darlin....your starting to sound logical.....

lets push it a bit furhter...how bout those little rock bars on Ford road, the ones with somebody's back yard next to the parkign lot....

should they be forced to shut down too??? Maybe its country night....and you fucken hate country....