Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I try to look at things objectively, of course we all fail constantly try as we might, and always bring our own agenda to things to some degree. But i do try to be as fair as i can. Try, being the operative word. We work with the tools we have , not the tools we wish we had. In terms of this story...

I know personally that my dad for instance , once had the police come to the house asking about noise levels for him using his carpentry equipment for extended periods of time (works out of the house as a professional carpenter) and he insulated the garage to get the noise level down.

There was some ordinance about er.. i think past 10 o'clock X noise level is allowed and before that X noise level is allowed for some vague amount of time or some such. According to the cops they didn't feel my dad was actually breaking the rule but he got some noise dampening stuff for the garage walls anyway.

Back to the topic post... difficult to comment without more detail but it almost reads as a non-story. This sort of thing (keep the music down please god dangit) is very common. Especially if there are many neighbors nearby (even just one really) there is a large number of neighbors close by and the music really is uber-loud, I'm not sure what kind of music it is matters, i also know that they mentioned something about there being some sort of grey area about "sounds" vs "spoken words / lyrics". I think the implication was that just flat out loud noise was more acceptable than if my dad had a book box blasting his Frank Sinatra records that are actually "speaking". All this is random though, i've not done a study, and may not have my facts straight.

If the idea is that "the police are really trying to break up Christian worship." Obviously that's not legal, but somehow i cant help but doubt that claim. The police department is very sensitive to politics and legal issues and has to deal with them regularly, unless they just had some moron in charge that day, I'd have to assume they did their proper homework before ruffling any feathers.

If you start thinking your lucky number is 7, and look hard enough you'll find all sorts of places were the number 7 helped you out or has some connection and just ignore any of the times that it didn't help you out. At least within the context of that one page story there I'm not seeing an dark forces at work.

I apologize that I'm really not up for reading the last 114 posts so I'm sure some of this was covered already.

[Rayne]

I totally can see this side babe, which is why I say get someone out there with a decible meter, go to a distance everyone can agree with, and take a reading....if it's to loud turn it down....

But first I would like to know what the noise ordinance laws are for the area......70db seems really low to me.

Great post hun

I understand this Rayne.

so were hopefully picking the lesser of two evils then.

if its truly a noise problem - then with all of this suiing and countersuing - lets get a written contract or agreement on acceptable levels of noise during accpetable hours - with the understanding that both private citizens at home and repsectable church members who have a right to a house of worship can agree upon.

hopefully - that will be the end result of this thing.

and maybe its not going to end up beign as drastic as it seems....

I agree with both of you then.

I don't know what 70db would constitute, but it should be measured. I have no idea what 70db sounds like ...

If it comes out lower, the guy has no case and basicly must deal with it. Best he can do at that point is hope for an economic turnaround and get the hell out.

If it comes out higher, then it's up to the church to take the measures to fix the issue (like soundproofing or lowering the noise level). Or the church could even actually petition the city to change the ordinance level.

[pharoh]

thats the local ordinance.

Wow, thats kinda harsh....if this church has been there this long, then why hasn't there been complaints before hand? Did they just start doing "Rock Music" for the thier format of praise music? October 7th of last year is the starting point of the incident......

Seems odd to me that any type of music there is going to be above 70 decibles.....It's even posted that the noise ordinance is rarely enforced.......not to dance on dangerous ground of going back to "that place", but could there be an alterior motive behind this as well?

[Rayne]

Wow, thats kinda harsh....if this church has been there this long, then why hasn't there been complaints before hand? Did they just start doing "Rock Music" for the thier format of praise music? October 7th of last year is the starting point of the incident......

Seems odd to me that any type of music there is going to be above 70 decibles.....It's even posted that the noise ordinance is rarely enforced.......not to dance on dangerous ground of going back to "that place", but could there be an alterior motive behind this as well?

I would venture to say that a format change was probably picked up recently. Having lived there for 7 years and the church was there for 50 ... that's the only way it makes sense.

[pharoh]

I agree with both of you then.

I don't know what 70db would constitute, but it should be measured. I have no idea what 70db sounds like ...

"For them to say this was surprising is disingenuous," said Thompson. He further noted that the township's noise ordinance of no more than 70 decibels is rarely enforced and, if it were, would essentially outlaw lawnmowers and snow blowers.

See what I mean now about 70db being kind of low now? LAWNMOWERS would be outlawed lol.

[pharoh]

I would venture to say that a format change was probably picked up recently. Having lived there for 7 years and the church was there for 50 ... that's the only way it makes sense.

Only way to know I guess would be to contact them and ask, or know somebody that goes there *shrugs*

[Rayne]

See what I mean now about 70db being kind of low now? LAWNMOWERS would be outlawed lol.

Perhaps the church should petition the city to raise the ordinance level then? Seems the current one is very outdated.

[Kit Kat P]

One of my favorite bars here in Monterey is just outside the gates of a military installation. Houses literally butt up against the fence of 2/3 or the post, which means there are houses all around this bar. We (bar patrons) have to stay quiet when we are outside and we have to drop the music volume after 9pm and before 11am. Police have closed down the bar early when the neighbor complains too much and they have been told by the city that if too many valid complaints are issued the bar will be closed. It is a residential and commercial zoned area. Once the bar knew they could be closed down, we all work to help keep other quieter so that the bar doesn't go away. It only takes one guy w/ a valid complaint to change the current status.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I have read other articles on line about this issue. There is something else going on. The Prosecutor and the pastors family have been in court before... over an election a few years ago.

and I'll ask again...

When did Prosecutors start going in the field to investigate and enforce noise ordinances?

[Steven]

Wow, thats kinda harsh....if this church has been there this long, then why hasn't there been complaints before hand? Did they just start doing "Rock Music" for the thier format of praise music? October 7th of last year is the starting point of the incident......

Seems odd to me that any type of music there is going to be above 70 decibles.....It's even posted that the noise ordinance is rarely enforced.......not to dance on dangerous ground of going back to "that place", but could there be an alterior motive behind this as well?

Do not fear "that place" brave Pharoh....(I kid)

yes I beleive an alterier motive is at work here.

but ultimately I beleive that there is a better way to handle it than how its been handled. and no disrespect for troy but police departments are notorious for showing bad judgement and boggling PR.

[Steven]

I have read other articles on line about this issue. There is something else going on. The Prosecutor and the pastors family have been in court before... over an election a few years ago.

and I'll ask again...

When did Prosecutors start going in the field to investigate and enforce noise ordinances?

thats the hundred dollar question my friend, and Im suprised it took so long for it to come up.

apparently the police were in effect - "led" by this prosecutor into the church. I smelled a ratfink the minute I read that.

[Msterbeau]

Does anyone know the ordinance laws if they change at night then? From my past expieriences, it has to be past a certain time frame (like 9-10pm) for that stuff to take effect. 70 decibles is nothing really.

Neighboring Clarkston requires the Waterford Hills race track to meet a 75DB limit. 75 is pretty damn quiet for race cars. Most tracks are in the 90 - 105 DB range. Within say a few hundred yards a rock band is far louder then the cars at Waterford Hills are at their current DB limit.

[Steven]

One of my favorite bars here in Monterey is just outside the gates of a military installation. Houses literally butt up against the fence of 2/3 or the post, which means there are houses all around this bar. We (bar patrons) have to stay quiet when we are outside and we have to drop the music volume after 9pm and before 11am. Police have closed down the bar early when the neighbor complains too much and they have been told by the city that if too many valid complaints are issued the bar will be closed. It is a residential and commercial zoned area. Once the bar knew they could be closed down, we all work to help keep other quieter so that the bar doesn't go away. It only takes one guy w/ a valid complaint to change the current status.

I liked this post.

I would also bet dollars to donuts that some sort of adjustment was attempted by the worship leaders in question.

[Steven]

Neighboring Clarkston requires the Waterford Hills race track to meet a 75DB limit. 75 is pretty damn quiet for race cars. Most tracks are in the 90 - 105 DB range. Within say a few hundred yards a rock band is far louder then the cars at Waterford Hills are at their current DB limit.

Indoor?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Heres some info:

High urban ambient sound . . . 80 dB

Passenger car 65 mph at 25 ft . . . 77 dB

Freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. . . . 76 dB

Vacuum cleaner . . . 70 dB

normal conversation at 3-5 feet . . . 65 - 70 dB

[Msterbeau]

Indoor?

Indoor track? Nooo...

Consider this too. Weather. As soon as the humidity goes up or the cloud ceiling goes down, cars start having problems meeting the limit.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

thats the hundred dollar question my friend, and Im suprised it took so long for it to come up.

apparently the police were in effect - "led" by this prosecutor into the church. I smelled a ratfink the minute I read that.

What the fuck are you talking about? I have asked that question about 5 times and no one will touch it.

[Steven]

What the fuck are you talking about? I have asked that question about 5 times and no one will touch it.

I aint skeeerd of it.

[phee]

What the fuck are you talking about? I have asked that question about 5 times and no one will touch it.

Not no-one... you skipped over Munin... here is her post from page 2.

Oakland Press:

Same article:

.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Wow, thats kinda harsh....if this church has been there this long, then why hasn't there been complaints before hand? Did they just start doing "Rock Music" for the thier format of praise music? October 7th of last year is the starting point of the incident......

Would it irritate me if i was a member of that church? Yeah probably. Would i be irritated with this particular complainer? Probably, depending on my estimation of how loud our music actually was. Would it seem odd that out of the blue something we've been doing for a long time is just now being brought up? Having long since stopped seeing foreboding conspiracy behind things I dislike, i'd tend not to invoke some dark force at work. (10 years ago i would have likely made exactly the connection thats being made here, honestly.) Not to say there ISNT some ulterior motive at work sometimes, i just think its far less common than we tend to think.

I can understand that line of reasoning but i have to disagree with it as an argument to not following the law, or just toning the sound down so as to not piss off the neighbors. Its just as easy to just tone it down , loud enough so the congregation can hear it but not so loud as to piss off the neighbors. If the law changed yesterday or if no other bothered to bring up the current law , doesn't necessarily invalidate the fact that people are expected to follow it. Some stuff is pretty minor and the cops and legal system have better things to do so it just rarely gets enforced.

If no one complained about people breaking the speed limit for 50 years, and then the city decided to start enforcing the speed limit or someone did complain and THEN they started deciding to enforce the speed limit, it would seem fairly cut & dried to me.

70 decibels is about what your 'average' radio would put out listening to it in your house at a moderate level. For it to travel from the neighbors house and still be that loud, means its way to dang loud for a place with residential zoning i would think. Imagine being forced to listen to (whatever) at that level from your neighbors house regardless of what they were playing / doing / saying.

[Kit Kat P]

I liked this post.

I would also bet dollars to donuts that some sort of adjustment was attempted by the worship leaders in question.

That may be a fickle bet hon. Not every christian is looking make friends.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not no-one... you skipped over Munin... here is her post from page 2.

Same article:

.

Nothing she posted answers the question in anyway. It just brings up more questions about motives behind the prosecutors actions.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Would it irritate me if i was a member of that church? Yeah probably. Would i be irritated with this particular complainer? Probably, depending on my estimation of how loud our music actually was. Would it seem odd that out of the blue something we've been doing for a long time is just now being brought up? Having long since stopped seeing foreboding conspiracy behind things I dislike, i'd tend not to invoke some dark force at work. (10 years ago i would have likely made exactly the connection thats being made here, honestly.) Not to say there ISNT some ulterior motive at work sometimes, i just think its far less common than we tend to think.

I can understand that line of reasoning but i have to disagree with it as an argument to not following the law, or just toning the sound down so as to not piss off the neighbors. Its just as easy to just tone it down , loud enough so the congregation can hear it but not so loud as to piss off the neighbors. If the law changed yesterday or if no other bothered to bring up the current law , doesn't necessarily invalidate the fact that people are expected to follow it. Some stuff is pretty minor and the cops and legal system have better things to do so it just rarely gets enforced.

If no one complained about people breaking the speed limit for 50 years, and then the city decided to start enforcing the speed limit or someone did complain and THEN they started deciding to enforce the speed limit, it would seem fairly cut & dried to me.

70 decibels is about what your 'average' radio would put out listening to it in your house at a moderate level. For it to travel from the neighbors house and still be that loud, means its way to dang loud for a place with residential zoning i would think. Imagine being forced to listen to (whatever) at that level from your neighbors house regardless of what they were playing / doing / saying.

The ordinacen is 70dB at the property line.

[phee]

Nothing she posted answers the question in anyway. It just brings up more questions about motives behind the prosecutors actions.

You didn't say answered.... you said "touched"

[Troy Spiral (13)]

The ordinacen is 70dB at the property line.

I could take this as just a statement of a fact, but i assume there was some underlying intention in stating it that I'm not grasping. Seriously not grasping. I'm not trying to make any secret point , i just genuinely don't know what the intended connection between quoting my post and then stating that is.