Religious Freedom In Waterford, Mi?

[Steven]

That may be a fickle bet hon. Not every christian is looking make friends.

yeahhhhhhhhh but not all of us are aholes either , and worship leaders often have to deal with noise levels and complaints......its not like it would be new to them......

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I could take this as just a statement of a fact, but i assume there was some underlying intention in stating it that I'm not grasping. Seriously not grasping. I'm not trying to make any secret point , i just genuinely don't know what the intended connection between quoting my post and then stating that is.

You were talking about dB levels at the source in regards to people beyond the source hearing them. I was pointing out that the ordinance has a stated range at which he dB levels should be measured. Like, it doesn't matter what the dB level is IN the Church... what matters is what the dB level is at the property line.

[Steven]

lets add another interesting twist to the story....

a few years back the chruch offerred to buy the neighboring houses at a price that was scoffed at.

now with the market bottoming out - some of those same neighbors want to sell at the original prices offererred.....and the church has turned that down.

hmmm.....

[Steven]

You were talking about dB levels at the source in regards to people beyond the source hearing them. I was pointing out that the ordinance has a stated range at which he dB levels should be measured. Like, it doesn't matter what the dB level is IN the Church... what matters is what the dB level is at the property line.

thats why I asked marc this question: "indoor"??

I too was looking for exterior DB level restricitive levels.

[Msterbeau]

thats why I asked marc this question: "indoor"??

I too was looking for exterior DB level restricitive levels.

At the property line is how it's measured at the track. Anything else and you're just playing games. The only thing that really counts is how loud it is at the neighbors.

Ha... They wanted the original offered price for their houses? People are funny.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

You were talking about dB levels at the source in regards to people beyond the source hearing them. I was pointing out that the ordinance has a stated range at which he dB levels should be measured. Like, it doesn't matter what the dB level is IN the Church... what matters is what the dB level is at the property line.

I was talking about the DB level at the "neighbor next door" level and just making an extrapolation about what must be a heck of a lot louder at the source. The distinction of "at the property line" i guess is the money shot there which i understand your point.

From a "real life" sense lets call it... If its loud enough to sound anything like 70 DBs near neighbors yard, that's pretty dang loud for an extended period of noise to go on. I'd not split hairs with a neighbor over it that seemed disturbed by my volume of (whatever). I'd just turn it down. If i was pumping out stuff that loud, just to not come off like a jackass, even if i could make a legal case as to why my "loud as heck but not loud enough to be illegal" noise generation is ok.

I'm not saying that's what they did in this case, i just know that its usually fairly easy to tell that something is annoying to the neighbors. I wouldn't go to court over the neighbor asking me to turn my sound system down that was bothering him, I'd just turn it down.

[freydis]

Back to the artical now.....

Does anyone know the ordinance laws if they change at night then? From my past expieriences, it has to be past a certain time frame (like 9-10pm) for that stuff to take effect. 70 decibles is nothing really.

I dont think they meant 70 decibels *inside* the church, but 70 decibels from the neighbor's yard.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

At the property line is how it's measured at the track. Anything else and you're just playing games. The only thing that really counts is how loud it is at the neighbors.

Ha... They wanted the original offered price for their houses? People are funny.

Well, when it gets to court.. the property line is where it's going to be measured as thats where the Ordinace in question says it must be measured.

as for the prices... that bit of info should be telling you something about motives.

[freydis]

thats the local ordinance.

Where it talks about the muffling..... I recall in one of the articles, it said that during the noisiest times, they had all the doors and windows open.

Shut the damn doors-- no more problem!

[Msterbeau]

Well, when it gets to court.. the property line is where it's going to be measured as thats where the Ordinace in question says it must be measured.

as for the prices... that bit of info should be telling you something about motives.

All it tells me about motives is that they want out of Michigan like a lot of people.

Agreed about property line. The part I put about neighbors was meant to reinforce that, not suggest that the neighbors yard was the standard.

[Msterbeau]

Where it talks about the muffling..... I recall in one of the articles, it said that during the noisiest times, they had all the doors and windows open.

Shut the damn doors-- no more problem!

Or like someone else here mentioned... Do a little insulating. It'll help with the winter fuel bills too.

[Rayne]

All it tells me about motives is that they want out of Michigan like a lot of people.

Indeed, perhaps the house(s) were put on the market and failed to sell. After a period of time of not selling perhaps they revisited the churches offer.

[freydis]

The ordinacen is 70dB at the property line.

Have you *seen* that property? That place is fricken HUGE. I finally saw a picture of it, and I recognise that building.... they've got a bit of property, and If i recall, they're right off the lake, with several houses (also with sizeable lawns) nearby. I remember seeing that building, and I was surprised it was a church.... looks more like a hall of some sort.

[LadyKay]

That maybe so. But then how far will it go? The way I see it, an attack on anyone's religions freedom is an attack on everyone's religions freedom.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

You don't think the neighbors might be a bit pissed that the Church wont revisit the offer they made some time ago? That they might be using the local ordinaces to get leverage on the Church to buy thier propertys that now have limited value?

Also, of one of the articles mentions the Church has been sound proofed a bit. Not sure how much.

No, never seen the place... but if the yard is that big... that helps the Church a bit when it comes times to test the dB levels.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

That maybe so. But then how far will it go? The way I see it, an attack on anyone's religions freedom is an attack on everyone's religions freedom.

And thats how I see it.

[Rayne]

Have you *seen* that property? That place is fricken HUGE. I finally saw a picture of it, and I recognise that building.... they've got a bit of property, and If i recall, they're right off the lake, with several houses (also with sizeable lawns) nearby. I remember seeing that building, and I was surprised it was a church.... looks more like a hall of some sort.

Yes, it's at Airport Road and Williams Lake ... my ex actually lives pretty close to there in Waterford. Not close enough to hear though.

The building is HUGE ... if they can hear with the doors and windows closed, it's got to be loud.

The building:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/images/031208/7545_512.jpg

[phee]

And thats how I see it.

Strangely enough I agree too... Not just Christians, but peoples freedom.... in this case the question is whether or not the church with it's music is infringing on peoples rights... or are the people trying to infringe on the churches rights to make noise.

The freedom of religion also includes the people who have none....

[Steven]

if anybody has google earth Id love to see a satellite shot showign the proximity of the church to its neighbors.

[Rayne]

if anybody has google earth Id love to see a satellite shot showign the proximity of the church to its neighbors.

Gaf or Marc ... How do I do a screen shot on the Mac? It has no Print Screen button ......

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

you have to use Grab... but I'm not sure how.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

[quote name='phee' date='Apr 1 2008, 05:00 PM' post='419074'

The freedom of religion also includes the people who have none....

[phee]

[quote name='phee' date='Apr 1 2008, 05:00 PM' post='419074'

The freedom of religion also includes the people who have none....

I'd like to see you prove that in court.

You want me to prove that some people aren't religious???

[Rayne]

you have to use Grab... but I'm not sure how.

Hmm ... well, I would be more than happy to show you if I could figure out how to ....

Steven ...

Google Map here

*** for some reason sometimes it's not adding Waterford, Michigan ... so if it does not ... add that in the Google map address bar near the top.

Hit the SATELLITE button and zoom in and out.

[Msterbeau]

In Grab... Use one of the options under "Capture"