Universal Beliefs

[phee]

I was reading another thread and this post got me thinking (It happens... don't act so surprised):

and don't mix taboo with sin. Not the same thing.

Simplified... and only the ones I think pertain universally to society...

5. Respect your father and mother.

6. You must not murder.

7. You must not commit adultery.

8. You must not steal.

9. You must not give false evidence.

10. You must not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not be covet his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.

I can't think of a sociaty that does not follow those laws.

Unitarian Universalists see certain beliefs as... well... Universal...

These are commandments from the Old Testemant... Do you find them universal to "society" or cross cultural? Are these truelly "universal"?

Thoughts?

[torn asunder]

i can see a couple of those not apllying incertain communities... i'll explain when i have more time...

[freydis]

Ditto.

Assuming that there are any "definates" when it comes to beliefs, social mores, taboos, etc often comes from Ethnocentrism and/or cultural bias. To be fair, when you're looking outside from within, it's tough to see things from an outside perspective, and you assume everyone has the same universalities as you do.

[Rev.Reverence]

On the ten commandments I would have to say the only new law there is I believe #1

....'Thou shalt not hold any God before me.'

The one about Idols is older, I read a reference to it in some ole dusty book.

And, I don't think honoring ones parentals is necessary, if you get no respect from them to begin with...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Commandments 5 through 9 are widespread but aren't truly "everywhere in all cultures", all have direct opposition in many cultures (even within "Christian" culture). To be fair, they are , widespread and i guess we could very loosely, use the term universal.

Probably the best distillation of the good parts of the bible for my money is: "Love your neighbor as yourself" - to continue using the Christian metaphors- is a good summary of 5-9 ..and 10 if we grant it as it was meant. (Commandments 1-4 are not of much use to non judeo-christans, all are thought crimes against a particular god basically.)

Commandment 10 is a list of male property that you shouldn't covet (House, Wife, Livestock, Slaves.) We now give men and women equal rights and "universally" are against slavery; the lesser status of women and keeping of slaves being fully accepted by the bible, makes this one a bit more suspect. But perhaps was loosely universal among primitive primate groups, and certainly was universal in the patriarchal society in which it was written 2000+ years ago.

Notions about fair play and abhorrence cruelty to others of our kin summarized with the above Christian symbols are notions that long precede the bible in a bewildering number of other religious traditions. These notions long precede any written code to various degrees and exist in earlier primate behavior. As such could be in a very extreme, lose way, be described as "universal."

[freydis]

Notions about fair play and abhorrence cruelty to others of our kin summarized with the above Christian symbols are notions that long precede the bible in a bewildering number of other religious traditions. These notions long precede any written code to various degrees and exist in earlier primate behavior. As such could be in a very extreme, lose way, be described as "universal."

See the problem with that, though, is where semantics enters the picture. Perhaps, "don't kill kin" would be more accurate than simply "don't kill". Many societies, even modern ones, believed killing those of the "other" was ok, whether that other was the neighboring tribe, those of another religion, those of a people that your people either hated or didn't recognise as 'people'. Even today, we rationalise killing in our own society.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I don't see the word Kill, I see the word Murder. There is a difference.

as for 10. The key word is covet. Covet is a powerfullword. It's like seeing that 69 SS with the sweet paint job. It's OK to like it... it's OK to want one just like it.. It's even OK to offer a fair price for it... It's not OK to plot a way to take it.

[Rev.Reverence]

See the problem with that, though, is where semantics enters the picture. Perhaps, "don't kill kin" would be more accurate than simply "don't kill". Many societies, even modern ones, believed killing those of the "other" was ok, whether that other was the neighboring tribe, those of another religion, those of a people that your people either hated or didn't recognise as 'people'. Even today, we rationalise killing in our own society.

semantically, Murder is wrong

you can kill the enemy of your village... before they kill you...

in preparatory self defense...

it's a mitzvah in the TORA.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

See the problem with that, though, is where semantics enters the picture. Perhaps, "don't kill kin" would be more accurate than simply "don't kill". Many societies, even modern ones, believed killing those of the "other" was ok, whether that other was the neighboring tribe, those of another religion, those of a people that your people either hated or didn't recognise as 'people'. Even today, we rationalise killing in our own society.

I'm right there with you. The thing i talk about there in terms of primate groups often only applies to in-groups (kin) for the most part or "semi-in groups" and dosent apply at all in other cases, thus my continual use of the "very losely, we could , maybe, use the term universal." Just didn't state it as such.

Having been over some of these issues so many times personally (I'm obsessed with ethics/culture/religion/nature of reality issues) I just tend to summarize as best i can with limited words. That post i made thre probably could have been a 250 page novel (seriously) if i had the energy. I'm also trying to shorten my posts, people tend to skim long posts and my point gets lost. I actually am thinking about writing a book on such subjects... one of these days, after i learn how to write properly. lol.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'm on board with the concepts of "murder" being different from "kill" as well, believe me. Yet another part of the 250 page novel that i could have written but didn't get to.

[Msterbeau]

I was reading another thread and this post got me thinking (It happens... don't act so surprised):

Unitarian Universalists see certain beliefs as... well... Universal...

These are commandments from the Old Testemant... Do you find them universal to "society" or cross cultural? Are these truelly "universal"?

Thoughts?

I wouldn't say UU's see their principles as universal, although that would be nice. The Universalist part refers to universal salvation. That stems from a period in time when Universalists and Unitarians were separate and still largely Christian. (1700s - late 1800s). Some Christians believed in predestination, where only certain people get top go to heaven, universalists believed everyone was saved.

And just for reference, here are the UU seven principles:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

[Scales]

5. Respect your father and mother.

Do they each deserve that respect?

6. You must not murder.

Is someone trying to murder you?

7. You must not commit adultery.

Then why is the world full of adults?

8. You must not steal.

What if it was yours to belong with?

9. You must not give false evidence.

What if it was done to you first? Twice? By the enforcers of the law?

10. You must not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not be covet his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Can't envy can be motivation for positive productivity? If your starving to death and someone is eating in front of you, is it a sin to instinctively hate them for not sharing?

In the right situation all of these are breakable on an animistic level. So IMHO, I don't see any universal appeal The Bible might have to any society except as a sedative to awareness. It's more likely to me that the morals and values instilled by parents and guardians into children determine if those morals and values could become close to universal.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Yeah scales from a more drill-down perspective , with a more critical eye and not speaking just in generalities, the "universal" qualities of most all such things start to show their cracks. Its only when you take them very broadly do they make sense in the way that is usually meant by "universal beliefs in all higher primates"... an exercise in futility if ever there was one to try and find a whole religious text that covers such things.

Empathy for human suffering and happiness in the context of fair play are at the core of all these idea and are present in primates and all human ancestors as far as we know. But the more complex ideas listed above are less and less universal the more they become more detailed.

[phee]

There are some societies that come to mind that don't even have these as underlying rules to begin with... Apache culture comes to mind, in that their entire form of sustinance was primarily raiding (stealing) and warfare (killing) from other tribes to take the items they needed to feed theirs.

[freydis]

Empathy for human suffering and happiness in the context of fair play are at the core of all these idea and are present in primates and all human ancestors as far as we know. But the more complex ideas listed above are less and less universal the more they become more detailed.

No, they're not, really.

There's more and more evidence that much of these feelings are culturally instilled. This is the nature/nurture arguement at it's core. Some sociopaths are born that way, some are created. If you aren't raised to understand empathy and fair play, it's a crapshoot whether you will on your own.

[phee]

There are also a lot of cultural loop holes... for example, if a religion/culture/groups guidelines are do not "covet" your neighbors stuff... but your neighbor believes in a different imaginary friend then you, you can be all like "Yay he is not 'one of us' I can steal his stuff now, cuz he is not an actual 'neighbor'"

[vampire]

my law ...

Thau shall not bleed on my carpet ... it's handmade wool (pretty carpet too maybe i'll take some pictures)

i cannot wait for humanity to evolve to the point where laws would be mentioned as the dark past ...

[Steven]

There are also a lot of cultural loop holes... for example, if a religion/culture/groups guidelines are do not "covet" your neighbors stuff... but your neighbor believes in a different imaginary friend then you, you can be all like "Yay he is not 'one of us' I can steal his stuff now, cuz he is not an actual 'neighbor'"

wha????

[phee]

wha????

For example if someone is in religion A... and they live by someone who is religion B... the people in religion A, might not consider those of religion B worthy of the term or respect of being called neighbor.

[vampire]

oi vei .. or if they are true gypsies .. they will steal ... your horse ... your carriage ... your dog.... your kid .... your wife ... etc. if they don't get caught doing it it's not stealing ... yea

[sass_in_the_pants]

I really like this question.

I think there are universal beliefs. There is some level of moral code hard-wired into us. I also believe that we, universally, bend, break and trample on this moral code all the time. And, that too, is hard-wired into us, like we have our own self-destruct button and we love to push it.