Abraham, A Side Thread

[Rev.Reverence]

I will start;

From cross examining theological points from Hebrew and Islamic beliefs I found that Abraham had two sons:

Ishmael- thru Hagar his wife's handmaiden

Isaac- thru Sarah later

each side will try to tell you they are promised Abraham's 'blessing'

I say the story is about how it is not necessarily a good idea to hold one child as superior to another.

Steve wanted to discus this subject further...

[Steven]

quick freply as I'm jumping topics and about to run out of the house.....what I'm interested in regarding hagar/Sarah is an offshoot of the polygamy thread....is this healthy? Does it work? Is it what God ordained?

that sort of thing Rev....more to come...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Of the sons of Abraham traditionally Issac is considered the patriarch of the Jewish (and by extension) Christian people and Ishmael the patriarch of the Arab people. This idea has fallen out of favor in the west somewhat but is still extremely strong in the Muslim world. Ima guess god (if he exists and wrote or caused to have written) the early Hebrew scriptures, one of the two lines of decent was intentional.

Random, not particularly relevant comment: Judaism, Islam and Christianity together are often called the "Abrahamic Religions".

As to the specifics of the topic thread, i'll try not to write a novel for now lol. *goes back to the slave labor part of DGN*

[Pandora]

My take on Abraham in general is this, he was a brilliant strategist.

The man had a father who made idols and lived in Ur/Babylonia/Mesopotamia, land of many many gods. The concept of One God was not practiced whatsoever at the time.

Abraham became very tired of I believe the Assyrians trampling their city and killing everything and everyone in their path so he and many of his kin/family members left the area and wandered around for many years.

Knowing their shrinking lineage was in great danger of being sucked in by other surrounding cultures (and vulnerable to attack from anyone who wanted to start a fight), Abraham came up with the concept of one god. He also introduced new covenants to bond the group more fully and distinguish them from other peoples. The main two being circumcision and the banning of the practice of human sacrifice. This set the group apart, and allowed it to form a very tight-knit group. They began acquiring families from different areas and inducting into their new One god religion. Obviously it worked very well.

Abraham and his life is steeped in mythology, as is nearly all early Judaism and Christianity. The main stories from the bible are obvious repeats of previous famous texts; i.e. the story of Noah is a retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the Ten Commandments are a condensed version of Hammurabi's Code.

If I ever choose to believe in a god or join a religion I'm choosing Judaism. It has incredible staying power because of the emphasis on family, community and tradition, all things I admire. Right now I don't but every time I think of Abraham I am considerably impressed with what he was able to create out of desperation and love for his family.

[Steven]

My take on Abraham in general is this, he was a brilliant strategist.

The man had a father who made idols and lived in Ur/Babylonia/Mesopotamia, land of many many gods. The concept of One God was not practiced whatsoever at the time.

Abraham became very tired of I believe the Assyrians trampling their city and killing everything and everyone in their path so he and many of his kin/family members left the area and wandered around for many years.

Knowing their shrinking lineage was in great danger of being sucked in by other surrounding cultures (and vulnerable to attack from anyone who wanted to start a fight), Abraham came up with the concept of one god. He also introduced new covenants to bond the group more fully and distinguish them from other peoples. The main two being circumcision and the banning of the practice of human sacrifice. This set the group apart, and allowed it to form a very tight-knit group. They began acquiring families from different areas and inducting into their new One god religion. Obviously it worked very well.

Abraham and his life is steeped in mythology, as is nearly all early Judaism and Christianity. The main stories from the bible are obvious repeats of previous famous texts; i.e. the story of Noah is a retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the Ten Commandments are a condensed version of Hammurabi's Code.

If I ever choose to believe in a god or join a religion I'm choosing Judaism. It has incredible staying power because of the emphasis on family, community and tradition, all things I admire. Right now I don't but every time I think of Abraham I am considerably impressed with what he was able to create out of desperation and love for his family.

Quick replies before I go to work:

I dont think Abraham "invented" YHWH or the concept of one God. In fact at least in Judeo Christian text you often see a mixture of three individuals whenever God manifests, as well as specific working titles such as "THE Angel of The Lord" as opposed to An angel of The Lord.

Abraham also had social issues that plaugued him and his family....he was still deeply rooted in Pagan Divination, he had issues with prostitutes, and he was a liar when he felt he was in danger - as he had his wife Sarai agree to go with teh lie that she was just his sister because of her beauty - he was afraid of getting killed over her. His Son Issac waould later do the exact same thing with his own wife rebecca....their sons fought each other over birthrights and blessings, and finnally Jacob was thorwn into a well and sold into slavery while his brothers told Jacob that he was dead....LOTS of family disfunction there....

Dont forget too (unless this is what your referring to) that Abraham was going to sacrifice his own Son to YHWH.

Does the epic of glgamesh (Ive never read it - please link me if possible) describe problems with the Nephilim or Zamzummin or other cannabalistic giants that were overtaking the native peoples of the time? I do (personally) beleive that the text shows that Noah was chosen because his fam,ily bloodline had not been tainted with Nephilim DNA.

forgot to add: that Abraham obviously did not come up with the ten commandments, Moses did.....and I beleive that this was a rough framework (along with MANY other laws applied to the wandering Israelite nation) that allowed one man to lead a nation, and to instill a sense of identity in them after hundreds of years of Egyptian slavery and culture inter mixing, there literatlly had to be some sense of structure and order to set these people apart and fuse them into a credible power or they would have splintered internally in their 40 years in the Sinai desert.

[Steven]

getting back to Rev's original line on Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, Sarai and Hagar.....

if I remember correctly the original prophesy given to an aging Abraham and Barren Sarai was that she would give birth to a mighty nation, specifically from a joining of Abraham an Sarai (Sarah). Abraham ended up jumping the gun and moving ahead of the promise of YHWH, by taking his maidservant Hagar and having a child with her in order to begin this lineage, but this was not what YHWH had promised him - the promise - concerned Sarah his barren wife - and it was specifically due to her barren state that YHWH chose her - in order to express his ultiamte authority over that which we are faced wtih in the "natural" world.....the start of the nation of Israel therefore was intentionally born of a miracle.

In Abraham's short sighted vision, he went with the temperol solution: Hagar. and she did have Ishmael, born of Abraham. But Ishamel was not the intended vessel as promised, Issac was. Sarah was shown favor and also had a child - an extension of the prophesy as intended.

Not only was there a bitter root between Hagar and Sarai - where hagar held a maidservents position - not a position of equality with Sarai - but there was the ultimate history of future strife between the liineage of the half brothers. This too, was prophesied.

[Pandora]

I dont think Abraham "invented" YHWH or the concept of one God. In fact at least in Judeo Christian text you often see a mixture of three individuals whenever God manifests, as well as specific working titles such as "THE Angel of The Lord" as opposed to An angel of The Lord.

Abraham inventing the one god concept makes sense to me personally. It's the direct opposite of what he was raised. He could say "Hey we'll pray to a whole bunch of new gods" So he suggested a covenant of One god that would protect his people.

Also, Abraham's god was different than Moses god. Abraham's God was named El, and he was very helpful to Abraham's people. This was a major departure for the time/culture as the majority of the gods back in Ur/Mesopotamia were very unhelpful, very angry gods. (Read Epic of Gilgamesh). Life in Mesopotamia was pretty depressing, the land made attacks easy access, the entire plain flooded three times a year Without warning.

Back then the environment is what determined happy or unhappy gods. And this environment was killer.

Moses version of God was far more parental, and controlling, thus the ten commandments. The people had behaved out of control after being saved from slavery, and so a god with some pretty harsh laws (though I agree with most of them) broke through, echoing Hammurabi's Code.

Dont forget too (unless this is what your referring to) that Abraham was going to sacrifice his own Son to YHWH. (He didn't)

Does the epic of glgamesh (look it up on Google.com, it's a pretty important story. should be hundreds of websites devoted to it)

I never said Abraham came up with the Ten Commandments. That was Moses. :-)

Abraham was a strategist, and so were his sons. I don't find him taking Hagar as short-sighted, but as an ancient version of modern forced prostitution.

When you speak about prophecy and 100% belief of the bible how can you have conversations about this stuff? I was encouraged in school to find evidence of these stories, to look for the facts and set aside the myths to form my opinions.

[Steven]

I never said Abraham came up with the Ten Commandments. That was Moses. :-)

Abraham was a strategist, and so were his sons. I don't find him taking Hagar as short-sighted, but as an ancient version of modern forced prostitution.

When you speak about prophecy and 100% belief of the bible how can you have conversations about this stuff? I was encouraged in school to find evidence of these stories, to look for the facts and set aside the myths to form my opinions.

generally I use english to have conversations about this stuff. my spanish is not so hot.

your approach on finding evidence is no different than my own.....anybody who searches for anything inevitably filters said "evidence" thru their own internal process based on what is important to them in finding truth....

as for Hagar's postion of forced prostitution.....a maidservant in this position sometimes did indeed fall under this category. But just as likely - a maidservant entered into an arrangement such as this one willfully and was therefore able to potect her own interests. I dont really see anything in the text in Hagars case that suggests she was in any sort of forced situation, and there is writings in the text of Abraham paying for Poonani from prostitutes, and further evidence that he became very wealthy and powerful...ie, he could afford hot redheads.

by the way I dont beleive Abraham's story is founded in myth.

PS - forgot to add that to "study" Abraham outside of his alleged relationship with YHWH is, I beleive, a foundationally flawed approach. Everything that motivated Abraham to suddenly transform himself from an arabic vagabond to a powerful prince has everything to do with his "faith" in his relationship to not onlyhis God but his calling. Its not like Abraham lived in sympathetic times and was surrounded by welcoming cultures and neighbors...."something" drove him to become what he did.

[Rev.Reverence]

Every account of this story I've heard/read Sarah GAVE up her handmaiden...

It was HER doing.

My point originally was that Muslims say one thing, the Hebrews say another, and by cross examaning 2 bullshit stories we can find a meaning...

...to not hold one brother above another....

...as HUMANITY is a family, we see not to favor one over another...

I will discourse into Y.H.V.H. in a few... I am busy today.....

[Pandora]

generally I use english to have conversations about this stuff. my spanish is not so hot.

your approach on finding evidence is no different than my own.....anybody who searches for anything inevitably filters said "evidence" thru their own internal process based on what is important to them in finding truth....

as for Hagar's postion of forced prostitution.....a maidservant in this position sometimes did indeed fall under this category. But just as likely - a maidservant entered into an arrangement such as this one willfully and was therefore able to potect her own interests. I dont really see anything in the text in Hagars case that suggests she was in any sort of forced situation, and there is writings in the text of Abraham paying for Poonani from prostitutes, and further evidence that he became very wealthy and powerful...ie, he could afford hot redheads.

by the way I dont beleive Abraham's story is founded in myth.

If there isn't historical fact so support these stories then the conversation cannot hold water as objective.

You don't believe the story is founded in myth? Why? Because the truth clashes with belief?

My approach on finding evidence is looking at what hundreds of scholars have already found based on available artifacts.

Myth is the classic way legends and stories were carried throughout history, and it still is. But that doesn't make it factual.

I've no desire to insult your belief system, I just like evidence.

LOL @ no evidence supporting that Hagar was in any sort of forced situation. Women had next to no free will anywhere in the bible, and if free will was expressed they were killed or shamed, or stoned.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I dont think Abraham "invented" YHWH or the concept of one God. In fact at least in Judeo Christian text you often see a mixture of three individuals whenever God manifests, as well as specific working titles such as "THE Angel of The Lord" as opposed to An angel of The Lord.

Abraham inventing the one god concept makes sense to me personally. It's the direct opposite of what he was raised. He could say "Hey we'll pray to a whole bunch of new gods" So he suggested a covenant of One god that would protect his people.

Also, Abraham's god was different than Moses god. Abraham's God was named El, and he was very helpful to Abraham's people. This was a major departure for the time/culture as the majority of the gods back in Ur/Mesopotamia were very unhelpful, very angry gods. (Read Epic of Gilgamesh). Life in Mesopotamia was pretty depressing, the land made attacks easy access, the entire plain flooded three times a year Without warning.

Back then the environment is what determined happy or unhappy gods. And this environment was killer.

Moses version of God was far more parental, and controlling, thus the ten commandments. The people had behaved out of control after being saved from slavery, and so a god with some pretty harsh laws (though I agree with most of them) broke through, echoing Hammurabi's Code.

Dont forget too (unless this is what your referring to) that Abraham was going to sacrifice his own Son to YHWH. (He didn't)

Does the epic of glgamesh (look it up on Google.com, it's a pretty important story. should be hundreds of websites devoted to it)

I never said Abraham came up with the Ten Commandments. That was Moses. :-)

Abraham was a strategist, and so were his sons. I don't find him taking Hagar as short-sighted, but as an ancient version of modern forced prostitution.

When you speak about prophecy and 100% belief of the bible how can you have conversations about this stuff? I was encouraged in school to find evidence of these stories, to look for the facts and set aside the myths to form my opinions.

Can you sight a source that says that Abraham called God anything other than YHWH? I think the name your looking for is Ea or possibly Anu (An), btw. I've never read anythinig that says he called God by any name but YHWH.

[Pandora]

Can you sight a source that says that Abraham called God anything other than YHWH? I think the name your looking for is Ea or possibly Anu (An), btw. I've never read anythinig that says he called God by any name but YHWH.

Yes I can, I'll need a couple of days to find the book though, I wrote a report on it a year ago and it is in my works cited list.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Nevermind, I found this.

The word El appears in other northwest Semitic languages such as Phoenician and Aramaic. In Akkadian, ilu is the ordinary word for god. It is also found in Old South Arabian and in Amharic/Ethiopian, and, as in Hebrew, it is often used as an element in proper names. In northwest Semitic texts it often appears to be used of one single god, perhaps the head of the pantheon, sometimes specifically said to be the creator.

El (Hebrew: אל) is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel. As a name of God, however, it is used chiefly in poetry and prophetic discourse, rarely in prose, and then usually with some epithet attached, as "a jealous God." Other examples of its use with some attribute or epithet are: El `Elyon ("Most High God"), El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), El `Olam ("Everlasting God"), El Hai ("Living God"), El Ro'i ("God of Seeing"), El Elohe Israel ("God, the God of Israel"), El Gibbor ("God of Strength"). In addition, names such as Gabriel ("Strength of God"), Michael ("He Who is Like God"), Raphael ("God's medicine"), "Ariel" ("God's lion"), and Daniel ("God is My Judge") and Israel ("one who has struggled with God") and Immanuel ("God is with us") use God's name in a similar fashion.

So, it wasn't used as his name... It's just a word that means god.

[Rev.Reverence]

Can you sight a source that says that Abraham called God anything other than YHWH? I think the name your looking for is Ea or possibly Anu (An), btw. I've never read anythinig that says he called God by any name but YHWH.

Totally off topic, but let me dustoff some BIG BOOKS...

[Pandora]

Can you sight a source that says that Abraham called God anything other than YHWH? I think the name your looking for is Ea or possibly Anu (An), btw. I've never read anythinig that says he called God by any name but YHWH.

Here you go.

This is part of my paper. Below is the citation and the book.

It is highly likely that Abraham’s god was a deity called El, the High God of Canaan (Armstrong, 14). In comparison with the angry god of Moses, El was a helper god. He appeared to Abraham as a friend, even assuming a human form at times. This happening, or epiphany, was a common event in pagan antiquity. Gods in general were not in the habit of interfere directly with the lives of mortals, but certain men in mythical times did have the privilege of meeting their gods face to face. So while the advent of ethical monotheism was certainly a completely new theory, Abraham still hung on to a few of his old pagan ways for several years to come.

Citation: Armstrong, Karen. A History of God. 1st. New York: Knopf, 1993.

[phee]

Here you go.

This is part of my paper. Below is the citation and the book.

It is highly likely that Abraham’s god was a deity called El, the High God of Canaan (Armstrong, 14). In comparison with the angry god of Moses, El was a helper god. He appeared to Abraham as a friend, even assuming a human form at times. This happening, or epiphany, was a common event in pagan antiquity. Gods in general were not in the habit of interfere directly with the lives of mortals, but certain men in mythical times did have the privilege of meeting their gods face to face. So while the advent of ethical monotheism was certainly a completely new theory, Abraham still hung on to a few of his old pagan ways for several years to come.

Citation: Armstrong, Karen. A History of God. 1st. New York: Knopf, 1993.

Interesting

[Steven]

Every account of this story I've heard/read Sarah GAVE up her handmaiden...

It was HER doing.

My point originally was that Muslims say one thing, the Hebrews say another, and by cross examaning 2 bullshit stories we can find a meaning...

...to not hold one brother above another....

...as HUMANITY is a family, we see not to favor one over another...

I will discourse into Y.H.V.H. in a few... I am busy today.....

Sarah knew the promise YHWH made - that she as a barren woman was to conceive.

Abraham dipped his pee pee in Hagar and Sarah allowed it for the same reason - to make the promise come true - only they both acted out of human desperation as opposed to relying on the promise of God.

[Steven]

Here you go.

This is part of my paper. Below is the citation and the book.

It is highly likely that Abraham’s god was a deity called El, the High God of Canaan (Armstrong, 14). In comparison with the angry god of Moses, El was a helper god. He appeared to Abraham as a friend, even assuming a human form at times. This happening, or epiphany, was a common event in pagan antiquity. Gods in general were not in the habit of interfere directly with the lives of mortals, but certain men in mythical times did have the privilege of meeting their gods face to face. So while the advent of ethical monotheism was certainly a completely new theory, Abraham still hung on to a few of his old pagan ways for several years to come.

Citation: Armstrong, Karen. A History of God. 1st. New York: Knopf, 1993.

actually love your referring to ELOHIM. Which is a title, a description, of God.

but do tell more on a personal appearance - because thats where I was citing The angel of The Lord....and remember the three persons as they supped togethor, and then the singular commands and voice of God....to me this is some fo the first evidence of a triune understanding of the Hebrew God.

[Steven]

Nevermind, I found this.

So, it wasn't used as his name... It's just a word that means god.

exactly - and actualy its ELOHIM - a title or descriptive.

YHWH - or YHVH - is the personal name of the Hebrew God

[Steven]

If there isn't historical fact so support these stories then the conversation cannot hold water as objective.

You don't believe the story is founded in myth? Why? Because the truth clashes with belief?

My approach on finding evidence is looking at what hundreds of scholars have already found based on available artifacts.

Myth is the classic way legends and stories were carried throughout history, and it still is. But that doesn't make it factual.

I've no desire to insult your belief system, I just like evidence.

LOL @ no evidence supporting that Hagar was in any sort of forced situation. Women had next to no free will anywhere in the bible, and if free will was expressed they were killed or shamed, or stoned.

watch the relationship between Sarai and Abraham. there are clues there. same as with David and Micahel, jacob and rebekkah, etc etc etc....I understand that hard "facts" that your citing, but again its worth a look at the dynamics between charactors, especially in light of how they supposedly fulfilled a peice of a messianic story. You dont have to be a beleiver in the story, to consider the framework.

incidently what do you do about hundreds of scholars and those who hold doctorates that disagree with you?

[Pandora]

watch the relationship between Sarai and Abraham. there are clues there. same as with David and Micahel, jacob and rebekkah, etc etc etc....I understand that hard "facts" that your citing, but again its worth a look at the dynamics between charactors, especially in light of how they supposedly fulfilled a peice of a messianic story. You dont have to be a beleiver in the story, to consider the framework.

incidently what do you do about hundreds of scholars and those who hold doctorates that disagree with you?

Not a whole of dynamic anything going on between most of the characters in the bible. It's a lot of , the man does this and makes her do that without question. Pretty static really.

Currently there aren't a lot of scholars (that base their research on fact and not belief systems) that disagree with me, as I am only repeating their research.

If there were, I would objectively look at the evidence presented, and the biographical backgrounds of those scholars (i.e. Consider the source) and then make my determination if one can be made using fact.

And messianic history didn't come into play until Jesus (the jewish reformer, not the Christian messiah) came onto the scene. Abraham and Rebecca didn't fulfill anything messianic.

[Pandora]

Nevermind, I found this.

So, it wasn't used as his name... It's just a word that means god.

No, it's a word that means an entirely different god than Moses invoked. Entirely different god-like qualities in Abraham's and Moses gods.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

OK. I'm doing some reading on this El thing.

highly likely that Abraham’s god was a deity called El, the High God of Canaan

is a major over statement by everything I am reading.

[Pandora]

actually love your referring to ELOHIM. Which is a title, a description, of God.

but do tell more on a personal appearance - because thats where I was citing The angel of The Lord....and remember the three persons as they supped togethor, and then the singular commands and voice of God....to me this is some fo the first evidence of a triune understanding of the Hebrew God.

First part, no, Armstrong did not say Elohim, she said El.

Second part: What?

Angels' existence can't be proved so I defer to your belief in them.

[Rev.Reverence]

El Shaddai (Hebrew: אל שדי) is one of the Judaic names of God. See El (god) and Names of God in Judaism. It is normally translated "God Almighty who is all sufficient".

The term probably means "God of the Mountain," referring to the Mesopotamian divine mountain.[1] The term was one of the patriarchal names for the tribal god of the Mesopotamians[1] In Exodus 6:3, El Shaddai is identified with Yahweh.[1] The term appears chiefly in the Torah. This could also refer to the Isrialite camp's stay at Mount Sinai where God was with Moses on the mountan.

===========================================================================

I cheated a little, Wiccapeidia is a great reference book, if your already versed in the subject matter.

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EL= Sumerian for 'brightness' or 'shining'

ILU= Akkadian for 'radiant one'

ELLU= Babylonian for 'the shining one'; and Old Welsh for 'a shining being'

AILLIL=Old Irish for 'shining'

ELF=Old English for 'shining being'

AELF=Anglo-Saxon for 'radiant being'

from- Angels, An Endangered Species

by-Malcom Goodwin

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so we can see, EL is not a name, it is a title. To translate it into Modern English I would put it as the WORD 'god', not the name of God. In Hebrew class they say 'Adoni' (Lord), or 'Hashem' (HIS Name).

I am waiting on a phone call as to the exact meaning of 'ELOHIM' but I'm pretty sure it is 'angel'.

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Y=God the Father =fire

H=God the Mother =water

V=God the Son =air

H=God the Daughter =earth

That's scratching the surface, be back in a minute or two with more...