How Do We Feel About Illegal Immigrants?

[Morbid Side]

And Americans don't cut corners? Welfare fraud is a big way many Americans cut corners. Among other nasty things we do.

And they should be denied. I believe in equal rights, but how can you allow someone who is not from our Country, sneak in and propose to a job that is below human standards? Live off that and get off scot free without having to pay taxes.You have to make Uncle Sam happy. I'm not disparaging their rights, I just wish they would do like what all my Czech immigrant relatives did and that is earn their way and keep into the US of A.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Morbid Suicide

[Pandora]

And they should be denied. I believe in equal rights, but how can you allow someone who is not from our Country, sneak in and propose to a job that is below human standards? Live off that and get off scot free without having to pay taxes.You have to make Uncle Sam happy. I'm not disparaging their rights, I just wish they would do like what all my Czech immigrant relatives did and that is earn their way and keep into the US of A.

What if it is Impossible to win a citizenship lottery (and they do have actual lotteries for it) and living in a third world country makes it impossible to earn the money for processing to get a green card. We just say "sorry buddy, but do have fun dying in abject poverty!" ?

The world belongs to everyone.

And I don't consider working two jobs and living in extremely crowded, nasty housing qualifies as getting off "scot-free". Illegals live in terror of being deported everyday. I can't imagine the stress of living with that constant fear.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think the main "clear" point of contention i come up with after pondering it is a security issue. If you don't know, or cant control, who comes in and out of your country, and who stays and who leaves (or don't bother) that's not good. Is there a problem "at the moment" with a particular illegal immigrant? Who knows? But it does seem like a very large risk to have a huge population of virtually unknown quantities.

As to what to do about people that are ALREADY HERE (and i think fairly clearly, at least in some senses, a drain on the economy) its a bit rough. Since the time/energy/resources that would be needed to get rid of them all (as some would suggest) would, I'm fairly not be even realistic. Is there any way to do it that doesn't resemble some sort of 19th century reverse-remake of some aspects the Trail of Tears? Is it even realistic to fully figure out WHO is an illegal immigrant and try to tax them or track them somehow? Seems extremely complex and not boiled down to a one liner.

From the standpoint of the historical/racial context there are no "native humans" to this part of the world. Humans "immigrated" here from a totally different landmass. This isn't an argument one way or another about the topic post, just trying not to confuse the issue with this type of thinking.

From a strict "universal" sense, regardless of any I don't think i should have any more or less right to live in a given geographic area because i came out of a vagina in the USA vs some poor guy that just didn't happen to be so lucky. But, if we want (just as one example) America to be able to be a force for good, we have to keep it in good working order first, otherwise we will become ineffective as an agent in the world.

I try to look at political issues from a practical sense, rather than an ideological sense. What does it actually DO? What can we actually do? Republican (as in the US government) government is built on an infrastructure of the push-pull relationship of reality vs strict ethical ideas. Often the reality of a situation has to bend to strict moralistic concepts.

[Stymie]

What if it is Impossible to win a citizenship lottery (and they do have actual lotteries for it) and living in a third world country makes it impossible to earn the money for processing to get a green card. We just say "sorry buddy, but do have fun dying in abject poverty!" ?

Fact of the matter is. Life isn't @#$% far! Get over it. Stop being a bleeding heart for Illegals. Be a bleeding heart for the family's that just lost their job.... That have kids here in the US and that are now homeless and living on the streets... Or the ones that are having a hard time keeping food in their little ones bellies...

The world belongs to everyone.

And I don't consider working two jobs and living in extremely crowded, nasty housing qualifies as getting off "scot-free". Illegals live in terror of being deported everyday. I can't imagine the stress of living with that constant fear.

If they stayed home and worked that hard... TO make money and a better way. (Part of that better way. Is to clean up the streets of the fucking drug scums or what ever the prob is.) Their country prob wouldn't be a 3rd world country...

People in the US "need to take care of people in the US 1st" Then others... NOT others 1st..

Edited May 13, 2008 by Stymie
Just a bit abrasive..

[Rev.Reverence]

As for Australia, attempting to rid itself of Muslims IS akin to a deportation holocaust and makes me never want to visit their country or buy their goods.

AKIN my ass...what they are saying, is that members of a certain radical sect of Islam,

NEED to swear an oath TO AUSTRALIA...their new home...

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

How is this so disgusting...Sharia Law is what declared Jihad!

What IS disgusting is the BLATANT MISUSE of a POWERFUL word...

hol·o·caust /ˈhɒləˌkɔst, ˈhoʊlə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key -

–noun

1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.

2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.

3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).

4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

[amalthea23]

There's also a great problem with the fact that if you let anyone in at any time to escape horrible living conditions, joblessness, poverty, disease, etc. then eventually, all you're doing is spreading the horrible living conditions, joblessness, poverty and disease around. You're temporarily making it better for that person here, but in the long run, you're making it much worse for everyone else here.

[Pandora]

There's also a great problem with the fact that if you let anyone in at any time to escape horrible living conditions, joblessness, poverty, disease, etc. then eventually, all you're doing is spreading the horrible living conditions, joblessness, poverty and disease around. You're temporarily making it better for that person here, but in the long run, you're making it much worse for everyone else here.

Can you clarify that with some statistics or something? There are millions of say Mexican immigrants here and I don't see this country becoming mexico due to horrible living conditions or disease, or poverty. We already have disease and poverty, and horrible living conditions in some areas to begin with.

[amalthea23]

I have no specific statistics, however, I recently moved from an area that is TEEMING with immigrants (they made a movie about it, Farmingville) and it became an absolute nightmare to live in. It became impossible to shop alone, due to huge numbers of men loitering in doorways of all the local shops. There are traffic nightmares, tent camps set up in the woods where these people live, the crime rate is ridiculous and when they get a house, you have 50 people living in a 3 bedroom place, so the neighbors property values plummet. It's really horrible and causing a CRAZY amount of rage in the area.

[Pandora]

How is this so disgusting...Sharia Law is what declared Jihad!

Here's a primer on Sharia Law, a system millions upon millions of peaceful muslims follow.

Sharia Law

Sharia (Arabic: شريعة transliteration: Šarīʿah) is the body of Islamic religious law. The term means "way" or "path to the water source"; it is the legal framework within which the public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islamic principles of jurisprudence and for Muslims living outside the domain. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.

There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia. Sharia is more of a system of how law ought to serve humanity, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.

Before the 19th century, legal theory was considered the domain of the traditional legal schools of thought. Most Sunni Muslims follow Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shafii, while most Shia Muslims follow the jaafari school of thought and are considered Twelvers.[1]

Islamic law is now the most widely used religious law, and one of the three most common legal systems of the world alongside common law and civil law.[2] During the Islamic Golden Age, classical Islamic law had a fairly significant influence on the development of common law,[3] and also influenced the development of several civil law institutions.[4]

[Rev.Reverence]

Here's a primer on Sharia Law, a system millions upon millions of peaceful muslims follow.

Sharia Law

Sharia (Arabic: شريعة transliteration: Šarīʿah) is the body of Islamic religious law. The term means "way" or "path to the water source"; it is the legal framework within which the public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islamic principles of jurisprudence and for Muslims living outside the domain. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.

There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia. Sharia is more of a system of how law ought to serve humanity, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.

Before the 19th century, legal theory was considered the domain of the traditional legal schools of thought. Most Sunni Muslims follow Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shafii, while most Shia Muslims follow the jaafari school of thought and are considered Twelvers.[1]

Islamic law is now the most widely used religious law, and one of the three most common legal systems of the world alongside common law and civil law.[2] During the Islamic Golden Age, classical Islamic law had a fairly significant influence on the development of common law,[3] and also influenced the development of several civil law institutions.[4]

So, you're thinking is that throwing out SOME of the people in this sect is "akin" to a "holocaust"?

Even AFTER they had a chance to swear an oath to Australia?

[Homicidalheathen]

I have to comment again.

MOST of us are NOT natives.

Most of them were slaughtered...but still, I am glad the mexicans won in mexico or we would be sayin' OY to the North and South and maybe in the middle....

And, most of us treat our house pets better than the down on their luck homeless.

So, although its easy to be territorial....what right do you have???

Edited May 13, 2008 by Homicidalheathen

[Pandora]

So, you're thinking is that throwing out SOME of the people in this sect is "akin" to a "holocaust"?

Even AFTER they had a chance to swear an oath to Australia?

I have no problem wanting terrorists out of your country, but using Sharia law as that basis is ridiculous. Sharia does Not support Jihad.

As for swearing an oath to your country, like that's effective? I can swear an oath to the Muppets and still go and bomb whatever I want. It isn't a good solution. If you have proof someone is a terrorist or has ties to terrorism yes, get rid of them, but don't use Sharia law to do it.

Muslims all over are being harassed (much like here after 9/11) Australia because of the PM's statements and that isn't fair.

Holocausts start with ignorance and violence escalates from there.

And I said Deportation holocaust, not the kill all of them variety.

[phee]

I have to comment again.

MOST of us are NOT natives.

Most of them were slaughtered...but still, I am glad the mexicans won in mexico or we would be sayin' OY to the North and South and maybe in the middle....

And, most of us treat our house pets better than the down on their luck homeless.

So, although its easy to be territorial....what right do you have???

True... My wifes family is mainly native american... and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving for very good reason.

[Rev.Reverence]

Origins

At the heart of Islamic law lies the teachings of God and the acts and sayings of His Prophet, Muhammad;[12] therefore, sharia, Islamic law, is founded on the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

So, if Qur'an SAIS it is O.K. to KILL, then they are allowed to...

Australia just wants them to be AUSTRALIANS...Not a heaping mass of burnt flesh!

[Rev.Reverence]

And I said Deportation holocaust, not the kill all of them variety.

I will restate...HOLOCOST means...

1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.

2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.

3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).

4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

[Pandora]

I will restate...HOLOCOST means...

1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.

2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.

3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).

4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.

Yeah look at number 1. A great or complete devastation OR destruction.

Mass Deportation qualifies as complete devastation. Are they doing this yet? No, I recognize that.

[Rev.Reverence]

Yeah look at number 1. A great or complete devastation OR destruction.

Mass Deportation qualifies as complete devastation. Are they doing this yet? No, I recognize that.

There was no mention of MASS DEPORTATION that I saw...

..I understood the article to state that people who would not swear fealty to Australia, can leave...

..I do not see deportation as DEVISTATION...as the words mean something different.

de·port

–verb (used with object)

1. to expel (an alien) from a country; banish.

2. to send or carry off; transport, esp. forcibly: The country deported its criminals.

3. to bear, conduct, or behave (oneself) in a particular manner.

_______________________________________________________________________________

dev·as·tate -

–verb (used with object), -tat·ed, -tat·ing.

1. to lay waste; render desolate: The invaders devastated the city.

2. to overwhelm.

Now, I will give, that "deport" may be "overwhelming" but not to the point to throw Holocaust in at any time...

..There has ALWAYS been a FINALITY attatched to the word...even in the old times.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Rev.Reverence

[Stymie]

How many main stream Muslims do you know.....

Main stream Muslims. Sorry to say. Most have a bad idea about many things. That would shock the hell out of you. Even ones raised here in the States. (yes I know not all Muslims have a bad way of thinking. And follow the teachings the way it should be.) Most would be very happy to see Our Counrty and others like our (free ones) fall. This is a fact. (again ones raised here too)

[Stymie]

The world belongs to everyone.

The world belongs to no one.

We belong to it!

[hunhee]

True... My wifes family is mainly native american... and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving for very good reason.

Actually even the "native" americans weren't really NATIVE to America either.. They came via land bridge (SO many years ago), so yes, they were immigrants too at one time. I don't believe anyone is an actual NATIVE to this piece of property we call home...

The only difference between the native indians, and those of us now is .. they believed they belonged to the land (the land owned them).. whereas we believe that land is owned/ownable..

[freydis]

What if it is Impossible to win a citizenship lottery (and they do have actual lotteries for it) and living in a third world country makes it impossible to earn the money for processing to get a green card. We just say "sorry buddy, but do have fun dying in abject poverty!" ?

The world belongs to everyone.

And I don't consider working two jobs and living in extremely crowded, nasty housing qualifies as getting off "scot-free". Illegals live in terror of being deported everyday. I can't imagine the stress of living with that constant fear.

And i re-iterate: the only reason they're here living in nasty conditions, likely getting paid slave wages is because they're here illegally. The system is designed not only for the best interests of our country, but to protect immigrants as well. There are nasty, unscrupulous people that build their money off of other people's misery, and it's all because as in illegal immigrant, they have no recourse. So fill out the damn paperwork first.

[hunhee]

The world belongs to no one.

We belong to it!

Then why are you so against illegal immigration? The statement you made above contradicts your opinions on immigration.. I'm confused.

If we belong to the world, you shouldn't believe in country lines.. am I wrong in this assessment of your meaning?

[Rev.Reverence]

How many main stream Muslims do you know.....

Main stream Muslims. Sorry to say. Most have a bad idea about many things. That would shock the hell out of you. Even ones raised here in the States. (yes I know not all Muslims have a bad way of thinking. And follow the teachings the way it should be.) Most would be very happy to see Our Counrty and others like our (free ones) fall. This is a fact. (again ones raised here too)

I know SEVERAL...and I've only known a handful that ACT enlightened in ANY fashion I can comprehend..

..(& I know my self to be an open minded individual)...

In contrast...2 of the most enlightened and nicest people I have EVER met, are Muslim...

[Oh_My_Goth]

Nobody asked to be born anywhere.....

It is just natural selection.....

If we could save the world, that would be grand, but we can't.....

We all pay allot of time and money to live in this comfort that is America.....

I do not believe it is too much to ask that people coming into this country do the same.

I don't know if any of you have spent time in a welfare office, but I have.....(I had a hard time for a year or so, don't judge Me, I got off as soon as I could, I also worked for 10 years before that and paid into the system)

Anyway, more that half the people there were immigrants.....

So, I don't know about any of you , but I am not happy about paying people to come into this country and take away from American families.....

I know that the system is screwed for many other reasons as well, but that doesn't help.....

I know I may sound like an ass hole to some of you, but I think I am just realistic.....

I love everyone alike, I want all the little children of the world to eat and be happy but, I have a hard enough time keeping my family fed.....

It's not my fault the Universe put people where they are.....

OK, now I am rambling.....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

They are not mutually exclusive ideas.

I belong to the land in northern Michigan.

I'll don;t want people from other lands "invading" and taking that land.

You don;t want to admit it. You being the populace in genreal.. but we are at war with Mexico. A good portion of those people that come over the border and a good portion of the ones that don;t think the whole south west is part of Mexico and are activly trying to take it back.

You letting them