Should Abortion Be Legal?

[candyman]

Uh last time I checked the pregnancy had to be passed 24 weeks for a second charge to be brought on. There has to be a chance the baby could survive out of the womb, and the majority of the time before 24 weeks thats not going to happen.

Not so in Milwaukee and Madison at least...pregnant woman and her husband were killed by a drunk driver in my town...I think she was about 12 weeks along but I am not too sure...the driver was charged for killing three people...and no they didn't have any other kids and there wasn't anyone in the trunk or the drunk drivers car...

They have alot of protests in Madison...like at least one every day...and the pro-choice people have been pushing to change the law to where a second charge is not going to happen unless she is "officially" pregnant...

[Michiko_Dreads]

I don't believe in abortions past 27 weeks.

[gothkytten (2)]

i think i should be. but i do think it shouldn't be used as birth control.

[TitsMcGee]

Not so in Milwaukee and Madison at least...pregnant woman and her husband were killed by a drunk driver in my town...I think she was about 12 weeks along but I am not too sure...the driver was charged for killing three people...and no they didn't have any other kids and there wasn't anyone in the trunk or the drunk drivers car...

They have alot of protests in Madison...like at least one every day...and the pro-choice people have been pushing to change the law to where a second charge is not going to happen unless she is "officially" pregnant...

I'm talking nation-wide not just Wisconsin.

[Oh_My_Goth]

Really? Because the adoption agency in Milwaukee that has branches all over Wisconsin is really struggling to find children for all the families that have applied. Even with the children from safe haven it still has to branch out to foreign agencies to fill its needs...and that isn't even helping that much.

Maybe it has something to do with the area. Part of the problem might be communication. They had something going on with an agency in Minnesota but that got cut off. It seems like all the adoptions only take place if they have similar locations.

Well, if people didn't only want to adopt healthy white babies, then it would not be a problem, but unfortunately that is not the case...

[Rev.Reverence]

Just my 0.02 here...as a child that was almost aborted...I don't really like it at all. Yes, free choice is an issue...but free choice led to the pregnancy...and if they made the "mistake" of getting pregnant...should they really make and more choices? I wasn't aborted thanks to the riots going on at the time...so I was put up for adoption after my mother gave birth. Yes, there are tons of people looking to adopt however many of them will not get the chance because there are fewer and fewer children being put up for adoption.

There are cases where, if complications from birth will endanger the mother or the child, abortion would be a wise choice. However, I see pregnancy as a responsibility...and the high demand for abortions seems to me like one more sign that humanity has "evolved" to the point where it would rather cast off responsibility to gain a few freedoms.

One thing that I do not understand is that if somehow you kill a pregnant woman, no matter how far along she is, you are charged for killing two people...yet if a woman at the same stage has an abortion it is not considered a being.

Another question I have is that if this thing in her womb is not in fact a human being...isn't there a chance that with all the women keeping their children and giving birth...that there would be women giving birth to things that are not human? I mean, with all there variables here and all this evolution shit, no I don't give a rats ass about creation either, there is the change, probably very small, that something unhuman would have been born.

But that is my point of view...I have known a few pregnant girls in my lifetime, but I am only 20 so I guess that doesn't count, and no matter what religion they were all of them kept their children and either put them up for adoption or raised them as their own...

I believe it is called "Human Potential"...it is the Mother's to throw away..NOT yours

[Rev.Reverence]

Well, if people didn't only want to adopt healthy white babies, then it would not be a problem, but unfortunately that is not the case...

Tru' 'DAT!

[Rev.Reverence]

Not so in Milwaukee and Madison at least...pregnant woman and her husband were killed by a drunk driver in my town...I think she was about 12 weeks along but I am not too sure...the driver was charged for killing three people...and no they didn't have any other kids and there wasn't anyone in the trunk or the drunk drivers car...

They have alot of protests in Madison...like at least one every day...and the pro-choice people have been pushing to change the law to where a second charge is not going to happen unless she is "officially" pregnant...

"..I think...but I'm not sure..."

BAD debate tactics Dude...get facts...then..come back

I highly doubt that they would charge a person for 'murdering' a blood-clot

Edited February 16, 2009 by Rev.Reverence

[candyman]

"..I think...but I'm not sure..."

BAD debate tactics Dude...get facts...then..come back

I highly doubt that they would charge a person for 'murdering' a blood-clot

Dude I am way too baked to even care about tactics...as far as I am concerned these topics are only good for creating chaos, with the benefit of learning something new, it helps to be wrong because people are quick to point things out...

The only area where I DO have facts and DO get serious in with the smoking bans...and mohawks and how to feed them...and the occasional pet rock abuse threads...and once I got serious on a thread dictating what size nipples were sexy on a woman...BUT besides that I am never going to be SURE or SERIOUS because...in the end...both sides are wrong...both sides are white...and shit smells like shit...

I am super serial! Man-bear-pig!

Edited February 16, 2009 by candyman

[Rev.Reverence]

Dude I am way too baked to even care about tactics...as far as I am concerned these topics are only good for creating chaos, with the benefit of learning something new, it helps to be wrong because people are quick to point things out...

The only area where I DO have facts and DO get serious in with the smoking bans...and mohawks and how to feed them...and the occasional pet rock abuse threads...and once I got serious on a thread dictating what size nipples were sexy on a woman...BUT besides that I am never going to be SURE or SERIOUS because...in the end...both sides are wrong...both sides are white...and shit smells like shit...

I am super serial! Man-bear-pig!

Oh...SO..you're just TRYING to stir up shit...oK...I'll just ignore you..like I do the other little kiddz who don't actually care...

[candyman]

Oh...SO..you're just TRYING to stir up shit...oK...I'll just ignore you..like I do the other little kiddz who don't actually care...

Hey, stirring up shit can bring about good results. People often explain in greater detail when they get passionate. If you poke them just right they spew all the information and opinions on you...otherwise they say that you are wrong and write a few senteces as to why...

I am not actually creating PURE chaos...at least not complete anarchy...just a little...and if people ignore me they get wedgies because they were not paying attention...

I have been a whitness to many fights between pro-choice and pro-life...Madison is awesome for this kinda shit...it ranges anywhere from a logical discussion to an all out riot with cops scrambling to calm it down...

In the end...both sides lose...complete casualty count, just cross everyone off...

Is there a line? Maybe...but where is it? Get rid of humanity and the answere will be clear...keep humanity around and the line flies from keep everyone alive to kill them all...

Seriously

this

is

never

going

to

be

solved...

Unless there is a fight to the death with winner taking all...hand to hand weapons only...women are not allowed to use nagging as a weapon...men must get off their asses and do something already

This is not thread jacking...its nap time...eat you snack and sleep and you will forget all about how little jimmy poked you first...

[SaGa]

if cows gained super huge brains, had the potential to speak and be as smart as we are, whould we still kill them and eat them?

it relates to the post in a way

[candyman]

if cows gained super huge brains, had the potential to speak and be as smart as we are, whould we still kill them and eat them?

it relates to the post in a way

Do they still taste good? If they do then yes...I would still kill and eat them. If they decided to kill and eat me that is their choice too. Having been kicked by cows on many occasions I can safely say that they could easily kill us...and there is a possibility that they ARE just as smart as us...at least some of us...watch professional sports and listen to the players speak...

[Oh_My_Goth]

Population control...

That's how I see it.

[Rev.Reverence]

Hey, stirring up shit can bring about good results. People often explain in greater detail when they get passionate. If you poke them just right they spew all the information and opinions on you...otherwise they say that you are wrong and write a few senteces as to why...

I am not actually creating PURE chaos...at least not complete anarchy...just a little...and if people ignore me they get wedgies because they were not paying attention...

I have been a whitness to many fights between pro-choice and pro-life...Madison is awesome for this kinda shit...it ranges anywhere from a logical discussion to an all out riot with cops scrambling to calm it down...

In the end...both sides lose...complete casualty count, just cross everyone off...

Is there a line? Maybe...but where is it? Get rid of humanity and the answere will be clear...keep humanity around and the line flies from keep everyone alive to kill them all...

Seriously

this

is

never

going

to

be

solved...

Unless there is a fight to the death with winner taking all...hand to hand weapons only...women are not allowed to use nagging as a weapon...men must get off their asses and do something already

This is not thread jacking...its nap time...eat you snack and sleep and you will forget all about how little jimmy poked you first...

Do what thou will, Kiddo'.

[Scary Guy]

[Az_]

It is all about minds. Life is interesting to be sure. But life is everywhere and it does not necessarily rise to the uniqueness that is humanity. Humanity is life to be sure. But it is life combined with identity. A mind. And it is the mind that raises humanity about a cluster of cells. Humanity is worth defending. Or at least that is what our human view of life concludes.

So the question becomes when does a fetus become part of humanity? When does the mind arise from the cluster of cells that is quickly becoming part of humanity? When should it be defended? And when should it be considered (sorry for the seeming unemotional connection of this phrase) a parasitic attachment to the woman that she is free to discard?

Neurologically speaking we know that a mind cannot arise from a brain until the Cerebrum is formed and functional. This does not occur until some time in the third trimester. But the existence of a Cerebrum does not mean a mind is present and active. It takes time and accumulation of experience before the processing of the brain creates enough interconnections to begin to fathom self and become aware. The Cerebrum is just the minimum biological requirement. But the brain is not just parts. It is parts in action collecting information.

So we are a bit fuzzy as to when exactly the mind arises from the brain. A erring on the side of caution suggests we pin it to when the Cerebrum becomes capable of performing the actions that can give rise to a mind. However in my research I have come across mention of the fact that the fetus' connection to the womb via the umbilical cord introduces various chems that effectively neutralize that higher functions of the brain (read Cerebrum) until such time as the cord is severed. My research on this factor is sketchy at the moment. But if it is true then there is not a mind present in a fetus until at least the moment the umbilical cord is cut. Ironically the Jews and early Christians may have had it right when they suggested that the soul (a possible equivalent of the mind) entered the body with the first breath.

My current position is that on or about the third trimester optional abortions should be strongly discouraged. If a medical condition requires an abortion then it should still proceed. And if it turns out that there is no mind present until the cord is cut then it would imply that no person is being harmed even until the moment of birth if it is terminated.

All of this is of course extremely emotionally difficult to deal with. The mind does not deal with truth as much as it deals with emotions, images, and perception. Anything that looks like a baby will be perceived and emotionally related to as a baby. I myself would find it heart wrenching to perform an abortion on a late term pregnancy. It looks so much like a person that my mind would reel at the idea of it. But our brains can when necessary turn to reason and logic and try to understand what is really going on rather than simply relying on how we feel about a thing. Our nature is to react emotionally. But we can learn to try to discern the truth in even the most overwhelming of emotional experiences.

[TitsMcGee]

It is all about minds. Life is interesting to be sure. But life is everywhere and it does not necessarily rise to the uniqueness that is humanity. Humanity is life to be sure. But it is life combined with identity. A mind. And it is the mind that raises humanity about a cluster of cells. Humanity is worth defending. Or at least that is what our human view of life concludes.

So the question becomes when does a fetus become part of humanity? When does the mind arise from the cluster of cells that is quickly becoming part of humanity? When should it be defended? And when should it be considered (sorry for the seeming unemotional connection of this phrase) a parasitic attachment to the woman that she is free to discard?

Neurologically speaking we know that a mind cannot arise from a brain until the Cerebrum is formed and functional. This does not occur until some time in the third trimester. But the existence of a Cerebrum does not mean a mind is present and active. It takes time and accumulation of experience before the processing of the brain creates enough interconnections to begin to fathom self and become aware. The Cerebrum is just the minimum biological requirement. But the brain is not just parts. It is parts in action collecting information.

So we are a bit fuzzy as to when exactly the mind arises from the brain. A erring on the side of caution suggests we pin it to when the Cerebrum becomes capable of performing the actions that can give rise to a mind. However in my research I have come across mention of the fact that the fetus' connection to the womb via the umbilical cord introduces various chems that effectively neutralize that higher functions of the brain (read Cerebrum) until such time as the cord is severed. My research on this factor is sketchy at the moment. But if it is true then there is not a mind present in a fetus until at least the moment the umbilical cord is cut. Ironically the Jews and early Christians may have had it right when they suggested that the soul (a possible equivalent of the mind) entered the body with the first breath.

My current position is that on or about the third trimester optional abortions should be strongly discouraged. If a medical condition requires an abortion then it should still proceed. And if it turns out that there is no mind present until the cord is cut then it would imply that no person is being harmed even until the moment of birth if it is terminated.

All of this is of course extremely emotionally difficult to deal with. The mind does not deal with truth as much as it deals with emotions, images, and perception. Anything that looks like a baby will be perceived and emotionally related to as a baby. I myself would find it heart wrenching to perform an abortion on a late term pregnancy. It looks so much like a person that my mind would reel at the idea of it. But our brains can when necessary turn to reason and logic and try to understand what is really going on rather than simply relying on how we feel about a thing. Our nature is to react emotionally. But we can learn to try to discern the truth in even the most overwhelming of emotional experiences.

That is a very well thought out argument. Thank you for sharing.

[TheGimp]

i think it should be allowed to a degree i think women have the right to have an abortion or not to..but i do agree that a 3rd trimnester abortion should be illegal and i think it sould be legal for other reasons as well for example if a woman livesin a state were abortions arent legal and is raped and ends up getting pregant she should have the right to abort the fetus...

[GothicRavenGoddess (3)]

Here's my story, and you will understand where I am coming from:

When I was 17 I was a partier.. around drugs, getting drunk....... I got pregnant. Not the smartest thing I ever did, but it happens. I was living with the baby's father at the time.. I told him that I was, and he acted like I told him it was raining outside. I thought maybe he was just surprised.... Then we talked about it the next day, and he told me, flat out: you do what you want, is your decision.... fine... I told my mom that I didn't know what I wanted to do, and she told me that she'd support me no matter what my decision was.... which included abortion. I had no way to take care of myself while pregnant, so that someone could adopt the baby... unless I lived with the couple that was going to adopt the baby.. I lived in SC, folks, that wasn't an option. So the next day, I told her and she went off on me. told me it was the cowards way out, the easy way out. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? THAT WAS THE HARDEST DECISION I EVER HAD TO MAKE!!!!!! so i left the guy. I moved back in with my grandmother, and she told me that she wasn't going to let me ruin my life... ugh... so the catch was that if i wanted to keep it, then I'd have to figure out how to deal with it myself.. Translation: they were going to do the total opposite of logical human beings do... make me live on the street... cuz the father of my baby's father, whom he lived with, wasn't going to let me move back in.. how great is that...

So I terminated the pregnancy... and it has haunted me eversence.

when I was younger, there was a story of an 11 year old girl who got raped by the janitor of her school, and she got pregnant... her parrents were trying to petition to let the girl have an abortion (it wasn't legal in her state), and they basically got laughed out of court.. that little girl was forced to carry her baby to term...

my pont is, I'm pro choice, I'm not pro abortion.

[Mean Salley]

Unfortunatley, because not all of us are terribly politically minded, or have a desire to do research on a lot of issues (which is totally understandable, I have far more interesting hobbies) a lot of people's decision making on the subject is based on one of a few ideals;

A) Which political extreme do i want to identify with?

B) Which political extreme do I hate the most? I'll go opposite

C) Which argument has the easiest chicks with the biggest tits? (Which in itself is contributing to the issue)

For people who are quick to just jump on a bandwagon because of who you identify with, or because of who you hate, or because of who you're trying to bang, I've ruined it for you and now you can take these things into account, and see if you're so quick to identfy with your favored group; because now you're identifying with something else. Our government; Conservative, Liberal or otherwise, is never as simple or as benevolent as you may think.

Mind you, I am acknowledging that some people are making conscious, well thought out statements as to their position.

So before you just jump to a side without thinking, consider these things, and then build a case for what you believe, hopefully distancing yourself from the following facts. We all know a good uber-liberal sycophant will detest Hitlers ideals, and a proper ultra-conservative lap-dog will circle the wagons any time the foundations of white wealth and dominance are threatened.

-Adolf Hitler - Dictator of Nazi Germany "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring... represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10

-Margaret Sanger - Founder of Planned Parenthood "...we prefer the policy of immediate sterilization, of making sure that parenthood is 'absolutely prohibited' to the feeble-minded." The Pivot of Civilization, p102 (NOTE THE LACK OF CHOICE)

Margaret Sanger also published in a statement, verbatim, this line from Hitler "Birth Control: to create a race of thoroughbreds"

"Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide? We are the only minority in America that is on the decline in population. If the current trend continues, by 2038 the black vote will be insignificant. Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." Is her vision being fulfilled today?"

Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion

On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 16 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated "Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 36 million, the missing 16 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America's Black community would now number 52 million persons. It would be 36 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member."

A highly significant 1993 Howard University study showed that African American women over age 50 were 4.7 times more likely to get breast cancer if they had had any abortions compared to women who had not had any abortions.

and now a horrifying video!!!!

Check out http://www.blackgenocide.org/planned.html

It might be just a political/religious choice for most of us, but for others, it's a much more serious argument.

[Homicidalheathen]

yes

[Kit Kat P]

yes but there should be some limitations, such as time in pregnancy, # of previous abortions, and such

[Slogo]

It should be legal but not recommended. I believe women should have the choice but if possible they shouldn't do it.

[TygerLili]

Unfortunately, because not all of us are terribly politically minded, or have a desire to do research on a lot of issues (which is totally understandable, I have far more interesting hobbies) a lot of people's decision making on the subject is based on one of a few ideals;

A) Which political extreme do i want to identify with?

B) Which political extreme do I hate the most? I'll go opposite

C) Which argument has the easiest chicks with the biggest tits? (Which in itself is contributing to the issue)

For people who are quick to just jump on a bandwagon because of who you identify with, or because of who you hate, or because of who you're trying to bang, I've ruined it for you and now you can take these things into account, and see if you're so quick to identfy with your favored group; because now you're identifying with something else. Our government; Conservative, Liberal or otherwise, is never as simple or as benevolent as you may think.

Mind you, I am acknowledging that some people are making conscious, well thought out statements as to their position.

So before you just jump to a side without thinking, consider these things, and then build a case for what you believe, hopefully distancing yourself from the following facts. We all know a good uber-liberal sycophant will detest Hitlers ideals, and a proper ultra-conservative lap-dog will circle the wagons any time the foundations of white wealth and dominance are threatened...

Well as long as we're talking about abortion and how it relates to eugenics, we can't forget about all of the baby girls in China and India that are aborted, often late term, for being the wrong sex.

And I have to say that I'm not any more outraged by what was posted above than I am by the fact that many of the major insurance providers won't cover birth control because their backers are catholic.

Yes, I think that abortion has been abused in a lot of cases, and I'm all for regulation (parental consent if under 18, no abortion past a certain point in the pregnancy, etc.) of it, but I still think the choice should be an option.