Where did Goth Come From

[phee]

Inspired by this quote:

Goth came out of punk really, didn't it?

What are your thoughts?

[Paper Hearts]

i'm not really a metal person, i got into goth from punk, actually, Goth came out of punk really, didn't it? -It's just that things changed a lot in the late 90's-in a way, punk changed a lot in the mid 80's...

Joy Division in 1980 or Cure in 1979 was almost indistinguishable from a lot of things called "Punk" at that time. -I'm sure you've heard early Ministry...

-Television was first to book at CBGB's along with Talking Heads on their "Original Music Night". of course, Iggy Pop was earlier, here...

In UK Sex Pistols were first to record but the Damned were the first to play out...

-i think if you listen to early goth, it's nothing like metal, especailly not metal from the time when goth was new, however, it is a lot like punk from that time...

[phee]

From Wikipedia,

Gothic rock evolved out of post punk during the late 1970s. Originally considered just a label for a small handful of punk rock/post punk bands, Goth only began to be defined as a separate movement in 1981. While most punk bands focused on aggressive, outward rock, the early gothic groups were more introverted and personal, with elements that can be traced to much older literary movements such as Gothic horror, Romanticism, existential philosophy, and the political construct of nihilism.

[FarrIL]

I dont think Goth came from Punk, I thought it was the other way around.... <<;

Siouxsie and the Banshees is a Goth band and they've been around for ages, so I hear.

[Paper Hearts]

in fact, the Damned were a very early punk band that went Goth in 79 or 80...

[phee]

Siouxsie and the Banshees is a Goth band and they've been around for ages, so I hear.

From answers.com

The band was originally formed to fill an empty space on a bill at the first 'international punk rock festival'. This show was organised by Malcolm McLaren at the 100 Club in London's Oxford Street on September 20th, 1976.

[Paper Hearts]

It should be said that Goth for the time being, has much to do with metal, very little to do with punk, and probably even less to do with early Goth as far as sound is concerned-it's only really Goth by the lyrics and the look-sort of...

[phee]

It should be said that Goth for the time being, has much to do with metal, very little to do with punk, and probably even less to do with early Goth as far as sound is concerned-it's only really Goth by the lyrics and the look-sort of...

I agree with that....

Here is a deeper question, going beyond goth music... where did the subculture itself come from?

[Paper Hearts]

In a few words...

it came from certain punks that were alienated when punk rock started changing to more of a hard core, metal like thing-these people kept the masochistic (shall i post a photo of Sid Viscious playing?) attitude of punk, and kept the sort of lower motabolism beat that so many people with shit cars and F-ed up jobs so felt spoke for them...but, as Punk became popular, becoming more like metal, it sort of defeated it's own purpose, so a lot of people wanted something else, something they thought nobody in the mainstream would be attracted to-i think they just went for something more raw, something more real, less watered down.

Really, it was the look and the lyrics changing more than anything to set it aside as it's own form in the begining and that's probably still what sets it aside more than anything, today.

I guess it was just like anything else...psychology of a crowd type thing in a lot of ways.

[Black Sunday9]

It's like where did techno come from? there is no one clear cut answer. there was programmed electronic music long before kraftwerk.

where did rock come from? long before bill haley or chuck berry there was "rock n roll".

I don't think one particular even or band started "goth" but a series of events and artists that lead us the where we are now and as phee sated, go back to gothic literature and you'll find "goth" has roots as far back as the old testament.

When i saw this thread title I thought to myself "oh no, this again? we got trouble on the horizon."

[Onyx]

Goth is

Punk with brains.

(I didn't invent that, stole it from I cannot remember where)

[phee]

What about the historical sense... not just modern music?

[Onyx]

"goth" has roots as far back as the old testament

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. There's nothing more goth than the Bible

Really.

[Paper Hearts]

yeah, but there's a point, when Goth becomes "a thing", or Punk, or Rock, become "a thing", or Metal...you can know some of the first bands to play out or record either being called or calling themselves a certain type of music and know why they called themseldes that or were called that-of course, you have influences, but Goth can be put into an art history book just like any other art movement. No, you're not going to know the first person's name to dress or act like a "Goth", probably, but it's interesting to explore it as a movement, and it's important as culture.

[Shade Everdark]

I think, practically speaking, our modern goth subculture traces itself back to the Romantics. The Romantics were a reaction against the rigid forms and relatively cold prose and poetry of neoclassicism, that emphasized folk literature and wisdom, emotion of cold reason and logic, and individuality over blind conformity. The Romantics made a point of exploring the abyss of human emotions, and they had a soft spot for what many considered the 'negative' emotions--horror, fear, anger, and agression. One has only to read Frankenstein, or Browning's Porphyria's Lover, to see the fixation on the underbelly of human emotion.

The modern goth subculture grew up as a subset of the reaction against modern "classical" ideas: the nuclear family, rejection of rock 'n roll, staid religious faith, accepted norms of dress, etc. They took a particular interest in exploring the dark side of humanity, which once again had been sort of pushed into the background. In particular, of course, they explored sadness and the potential beauty therein (a rather Japanese concept, I might add) with a fervor not seen in over a century.

The parallels seem pretty clear to me.

[Paper Hearts]

i have nothing against metal-sorry, don't want anyone to think that. it's just that metal was "pop" music in the 80's. -Punk got very popular then too-not as popular as metal but too popular for many punks

and again, of course you have infleunces-i think we can be comfortable studying the first bands of a "movement" who record or play out as good ways of understandings the beginings of that movement without worrying about the first person to be sad or wear black clothes or whatever...

[Daniel]

It's like where did techno come from?  there is no one clear cut answer. 

Sure, there can be. Read up on the history, do some research and connect the dots. Where goth came from isn't all that complicated, and requires very little research to piece together.

[DarkChylde]

I think, practically speaking, our modern goth subculture traces itself back to the Romantics.  The Romantics were a reaction against the rigid forms and relatively cold prose and poetry of neoclassicism, that emphasized folk literature and wisdom, emotion of cold reason and logic, and individuality over blind conformity.  The Romantics made a point of exploring the abyss of human emotions, and they had a soft spot for what many considered the 'negative' emotions--horror, fear, anger, and agression.  One has only to read Frankenstein, or Browning's Porphyria's Lover, to see the fixation on the underbelly of human emotion.

The modern goth subculture grew up as a subset of the reaction against modern "classical" ideas: the nuclear family, rejection of rock 'n roll, staid religious faith, accepted norms of dress, etc.  They took a particular interest in exploring the dark side of humanity, which once again had been sort of pushed into the background.  In particular, of course, they explored sadness and the potential beauty therein (a rather Japanese concept, I might add) with a fervor not seen in over a century. 

The parallels seem pretty clear to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said shade

[Black Sunday9]

Sure, there can be. Read up on the history, do some research and connect the dots. Where goth came from isn't all that complicated, and requires very little research to piece together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wrong. Hell even Juan Atkins and Derrick May havbe debated eachother on this. Derrick May said Herbie Hancock invented techno.

If you think you know the answer you might want to enlighten everyone where goth and where techno came from. I know you can not do it, because the answer is not know, but I will be entertained by you trying anyway.

[The_Dark]

I love this conversation. I refuse to get in it, but it is fun to watch people explain something they weren't around for.

The evolution of Goth music and goth sub-culture is as convaluted as it gets. You just have to have been there to fully understand it.

As for techno.. according to most real music schools... Techno evolved from... Folk Music. Yes, I know that makes no sense, but it's what is taught.

[Brenda Starrr]

<<

[Head Wreck]

packman invented techno.

hell running around in dark rooms with repetative music and flashing lights while munching down pills

heh there was a guy from nintendo that said video games dont influence people or we'd be doing the above.

i just have to go to any club in the town centre to see this

[Shade Everdark]

I refuse to get in it, but it is fun to watch people explain something they weren't around for.

History profs do it all the time. That's why we have history, isn't it?

[Daniel]

wrong.  Hell even Juan Atkins and Derrick May havbe debated eachother on this.  Derrick May said Herbie Hancock invented techno.

If you think you know the answer you might want to enlighten everyone where goth and where techno came from.  I know you can not do it, because the answer is not know, but I will be entertained by you trying anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not wasting my time with closed-minded people who think they are right before they even hear the opposing argument. That is just a waste of my time. So far, you have a good track record for this sort of thing, and what other people have offered here is sufficient enough for the conversation. Im not wasting my time trying to convince you of anything, since you have made it repeatedly clear that you are the immovable authority on everything. Keep up the good work with being so well informed and stuff.

[phee]

Please keep it civil people