Where did Goth Come From

[Daniel]

History profs do it all the time.  That's why we have history, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on, Shade. You can't research history and know what really happened. Knowledge is so cryptic and contraversial, hell... I don't even think anything ever really happened because people that invented to knowledge can't agree on things! Oh no!

[Black Sunday9]

I'm not wasting my time with closed-minded people who think they are right before they even hear the opposing argument. That is just a waste of my time. So far, you have a good track record for this sort of thing, and what other people have offered here is sufficient enough for the conversation. Im not wasting my time trying to convince you of anything, since you have made it repeatedly clear that you are the immovable authority on everything. Keep up the good work with being so well informed and stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so then as I predicted, you can't answer the question.

no one has been able to answer this yet you claim you can, and I am the one claiming to be the authority on everything?

[phee]

It is still civil.... kind of

[Daniel]

so then as I predicted, you can't answer the question.

Great logic, captain. "He didn't answer it... so HE CAN'T!".

"He didn't eat the banana... he hates bananas!"

"he doesn't have a yellow ribbon magnet on his car... he's a terrorist"

Thanks.

no one has been able to answer this yet you claim you can, and I am the one claiming to be the authority on everything?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether you claim to "know it all" or not, you consistently demonstrate a strong bit of pretention about your own opinions and views, while obstinantly refusing to fairly consider anything that opposes what you believe you already know. It is fine if you want to do this, but I'm not going to fruitlessly bang my head on the wall to try to fasciliate a mutually enlightening discussion with you. There is no point. I discuss to learn, you just give me "yes it is/no it isn't".

However, there have been books written on this very subject. But, research it yourself. Here's a quick start:

http://www.darkwaver.com/subculture/origin.php

http://www.soundry.com/goth-origins.htm

http://stu.wccnet.org/~klaflamm/GDT150/shadows/history.html

A number of people have actually published books about these events. You know, events can be recorded and chronicled. It isn't all that terribly groundbreaking. I mean, people have been tracking history for centuries. This stuff happened less than thirty years ago. It wasn't exactly the stone ages. These events have been recorded, and on this particular subject, they are easy to track down. I'm not going to open a dialogue on "how it happened" with you because you have already decided you are right. Your mind is closed, what's the point in having this discussion with you?

[Black Sunday9]

Great logic, captain. "He didn't answer it... so HE CAN'T!". 

"He didn't eat the banana... he hates bananas!"

"he doesn't have a yellow ribbon magnet on his car... he's a terrorist"

Thanks.

Whether you claim to "know it all" or not, you consistently demonstrate a strong bit of pretention about your own opinions and views, while obstinantly refusing to fairly consider anything that opposes what you believe you already know. It is fine if you want to do this, but I'm not going to fruitlessly bang my head on the wall to try to fasciliate a mutually enlightening discussion with you. There is no point. I discuss to learn, you just give me "yes it is/no it isn't".

While everyone agrees that Rock N Roll as we know it today started in the 1950's, but it is common knowlege that people liked Robert Johnson influenced the first "rock" musicians. So where did rock n roll come from? The answer isn't simple.

The same applies to goth rock.

Your third link and your first link are at odds with eachother, for example. The first one says that goth has no link to victorian era gothic culture and the third link says it does. So the question remains, where did goth come from? Even in your links it suggests goth came from several influences. Yes we know that the goth rock subculture started in the mid/late 70's. You can trace the Damned and Siouxsies influences back to the Velvet Underground and others a decade earlier.

As for techno it is far more complex an issue. We know the basic scene as it is known today started kids from Detroit and Chicago listening to Kraftwerk records and addding their own imprints on it in warehouses and clubs. There has been numerous debates on this.

I have a book on the history of techno and it starts in like 1897.

Starting points are tricky because there is no single starting point. There is the 1970's, the start of 'goth culture' as we know it today, that much I never denied.

But thanks for the personal attacks!

[Rozzlyn]

Inspired by this quote:

What are your thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depending on where you were at, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, Goth came from either Punk, Glam or Blues.

In the states (with some exceptions, like Christian Death), it was obviously more "punk" in leanings. In the UK, (again, with exceptions like Siouxsie and the Damned), artists like Sex Gang Children and Specimen have more in common, musically, with David Bowie and The Sweet than with Sex Pistols and The Ramones. Australian "goth", with bands like Boys Next Door and Flaming Hands definately had firm roots in Blues and Soul.

In short, Wikipedia be damned, theer *is* no straight answer, but, if you listen to music that came before Bauhaus, hell, anything BC (Before [Alice] Cooper) you'll get your answers.

[paradox]

well you see, back in about the year 100 or so, when the germanic peoples were on the move into central europe, a group of peoples called the 'goths'.....

[Scary Guy]

Inspired by this quote:

What are your thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop starting crap.

My stance on this has not changed.

Goth music has always existed if you go by my deffinition of what Goth is. Which is that it is anything that is dark in nature, or rather the darker side of life. Goth is being able to see the beauty in that which is dark.

Now Gothic music is exactly that, darker themed songs. Which means you could considder Blues and Country to be Gothic to a degree (Johnny Cash = The Man in Black or hell www.ghoultown.com is a great example as well). Also Gothic Country does NOT equal Gothabilly (ala The Cramps, other monster/surf rock).

To me the first instances of Gothic music in general were Classical and Celtic. This also depends on what you considder goth music to be. If you're talking about the post punk goth bands such as Alien Sex Fiend, The Damned, The Misfits, etc... Then yeah that would be the 77 erra. Goth Rock to me started with Black Sabbath. Industrial I think was Fad Gadget and Throbbing Gristle.

It isn't hard by my standards to find Gothic music and this debate will go on to the end of time. However I stand by what I have said here unless someone can prove me wrong. Please, please prove me wrong. I love to be proven wrong since it is such a rare instance and I love to learn from my mestakes.

</genius>

I like speghetti.

[phee]

Good debate as always... please keep it civil... and remember... THESE ARE OPINIONS... so please do not take things too personally...

[Speechless]

there is so much anger in this post i have to ask...why cant we all just get along?

gothic music started when Andrew Eldritch...

[phee]

gothic music started when Andrew Eldritch...

:blink :cheerful

And Trent Reznor invented Industrial music...

[Black Sunday9]

Stop starting crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:grin

[phee]

OK we will clear this up...

I have done extensive research... and I have discovered that these people:

Are the most gothic people on the planet and is the source of all gothism in the universe...

So there we go...

[Scary Guy]

and remember... THESE ARE OPINIONS... so please do not take things too personally...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My opinion is that yours is wrong

BTW Kraftwerk invented Techno FYI

[Daniel]

But thanks for the personal attacks!

Don't confuse an attack with reiterating a statement you already made.

I know you can not do it, because the answer is not know, but I will be entertained by you trying anyway.

If you already "know" despite not knowing what information I have to offer, then what the is the point of trying to discuss things with you, exactly? I'd ask you to explain how you think you aren't closed minded, but I am honestly afraid to hear your answer.

[Daniel]

Good debate as always... please keep it civil... and remember... THESE ARE OPINIONS... so please do not take things too personally...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These aren't opinions. They are either incorrect facts, or correct facts. Opinions are "I think goth is cool" not "goth started in 1977". Opinions can't be wrong, but a lot of what is said here can certainly be wrong.

[Black Sunday9]

Personally I am just glad that you are here to tell us where goth came from.

And you were able to tell us what Industrial music is. Without you we might still be thinking Frontline Assembly was industrial music. VNV Nation noted they are influenced by industrial music, you might want to drop them a note reminding them they have as much in common with industrial as Michael Jackson (that's what you said, right?).

I praise allah that you know where techno started too because I was reading thru Urb magazine this week and read quite a debate on it, so I wrote a letter to Urb asking why they would interview Kraftwerk, Kevin Saunderson and Darren Emerson when they could have just interviewed Daniel and gotten the definite truth from him.

Daniel, could you please verify the authenticity of the shroud of turin and tell me who killed Jimmy Hoffa?

[Paper Hearts]

OK we will clear this up...

I have done extensive research... and I have discovered that these people:

Are the most gothic people on the planet and is the source of all gothism in the universe...

So there we go...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm fucking dying...genius! Say, off subjuct but a free drink for anyone who can find me a picture of the inventor of razor-wire, for my mantle...i've got this new project going on.

[phee]

These aren't opinions. They are either incorrect facts, or correct facts. Opinions are "I think goth is cool" not "goth started in 1977". Opinions can't be wrong, but a lot of what is said here can certainly be wrong.

We use facts to form opinions, for example Siouxie Siouxe was the first person to use the term "Goth Rock" (That being the fact) so one could form the opinion that she started "Goth Rock" that being the opinion.... see the difference?

"goth started in 1977".

That is an opinion

"Bauhaus Came out with the song "The Skies has gone out"

That is a fact.

If we were to look at the actual day that a "movement" in history started, it would be almost impossible, that would be impossible... that would be different historians opinions. For example when did the American Revolution start? We know about the Boston Tea Party... did it start then? What about the Boston massacare we know the date, that is a fact.... but did it start the revolution?

The same could be said for when Goth started....Just my opinion....not a fact....

[Black Sunday9]

We use facts to form opinions, for example Siouxie Siouxe was the first person to use the term "Goth Rock" (That being the fact) so one could form the opinion that she started "Goth Rock" that being the opinion.... see the difference?

That is an opinion

That is a fact.

If we were to look at the actual day that a "movement" in history started, it would be almost impossible, that would be impossible... that would be different historians opinions. For example when did the American Revolution start? We know about the Boston Tea Party... did it start then? What about the Boston massacare we know the date, that is a fact.... but did it start the revolution?

The same could be said for when Goth started....Just my opinion....not a fact....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thank you phee, that is what I was stating above.

somebody influenced Siouxsie and someone influenced the person who influenced them.

[Brenda Starrr]

I already TOLD you that I came from my mom. Daannng!

[JaneDead]

hehe

[Daniel]

Personally I am just glad that you are here to tell us where goth came from. 

I hope moderators are sending you private messages for this. They never let me get away with this sort of thing. Hell, and I don't even care.

You keep trying to bait me into this meaningless conversation with you, but I'm just not going to do it. There is no point. For example, your horrible use of reductio ad absurdum here only reinforces how poor your logic is. You openly stated you already made up your mind on the issue. You're closed minded and illogical. I think I'd rather get into a discussion with some "God hates fags" people, though it seems like it would amount to about the same thing.

[Scary Guy]

ATTENTION EVERYONE

EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG!

THANKS FOR PLAYING OUR GAME

[Kiss The Midget]

http://www.soundry.com/goth-origins.htm

tehe....and where does the Sisterhood fall in? 1977? or something like that?

I agree Scaryguy tehe but my thought is that ,websters dictionary is wrong :grin

greg