Where did Goth Come From

[Black Sunday9]

I hope moderators are sending you private messages for this. They never let me get away with this sort of thing. Hell, and I don't even care.

You keep trying to bait me into this meaningless conversation with you, but I'm just not going to do it. There is no point. For example, your horrible use of reductio ad absurdum here only reinforces how poor your logic is. You openly stated you already made up your mind on the issue. You're closed minded and illogical. I think I'd rather get into a discussion with some "God hates fags" people, though it seems like it would amount to about the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did I say I already made up my mind? Pointing out where I said that would be helpful.

Thanks.

[Daniel]

I know you can not do it, because the answer is not know, but I will be entertained by you trying anyway.

Indeed!

[Black Sunday9]

Indeed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I stated a fact that there is no consensus on where techno originated. It has nothing to do with whether or not my mind can be changed. People far more educated on the topic than you and I have searched for the answer and have not found one. Even researching the net or reading Dan Sicko's book 'techno rebels' states just as much.

If you feel you know where techno started, I am willing to listen. But why would you think you can explain better than Juan Atkins and Derrick May who couldn't convince each other where it started? If you want to cite Kraftwerk as the start of techno you would have to explain Wendy Carlos and Dick Myman's electronic albums that pre-dated Kraftwerk.

[Vater Araignee]

I think and research "where did goth come from?"

Musically I can't tell you.

Socially I can tell you that Goths are Modern Beatniks simple as that.

And thats alll I have to say about that.

[Marblez]

I believe there is no beginning of goth or end to goth.

It is not a tangible object formed in someones studio, it was not born and has no birthdate. It is a "style" one which has evolved into what it is by the blending over years of other "styles". It has been and will continue to evolve into other styles.

I say style because this would include the music and the fashion and the attitude. Have to include it all because not everyone that would be considered "goth" has to subscribe to all 3.

[Marblez]

I think and research "where did goth come from?"

Musically I can't tell you.

Socially I can tell you that Goths are Modern Beatniks simple as that.

And thats alll I have to say about that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the beatnik begat the goth, what begat the beatnik?

And yes, the similarities are strikingly difficult to refute.

[Daniel]

I stated a fact that there is no consensus on where techno originated.  It has nothing to do with whether or not my mind can be changed.    People far more educated on the topic than you and I have searched for the answer and have not found one.    Even researching the net or reading Dan Sicko's book 'techno rebels' states just as much. 

If you feel you know where techno started, I am willing to listen.  But why would you think you can explain better than Juan Atkins and Derrick May who couldn't convince each other where it started?    If you want to cite Kraftwerk as the start of techno you would have to explain Wendy Carlos and Dick Myman's electronic albums that pre-dated Kraftwerk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I personally don't give a crap about techno, and how you got on that tangent, I'm not precisely sure... nor am I worried about it. It is also worth noting that I don't think Derrick May is a credible source for anything, even if he was "there". I'm also not going to teach you how to research and document history. Even if information is often nebulous, or if events are hard to pin point to the exact second, it isn't difficult to intensively focus on putting solid information together, coming to a fair conclusion and reporting the findings. Harder, more arcane subjects have been tackled successfully before. Why you think this is so hard, I have no idea. Nor do I care.

But, let us evaluate your sentence, if you don't think you stated something that directly lead me to believe your mind can't(won't) be changed:

I know you can not do it, because the answer is not know, but I will be entertained by you trying anyway.

1) If you already know I cannot do "it"... you have implied you know everything I can possibly know/present on the subject. There are dozens of other implications by the first part of your sentence, but no matter how you look at it, you've already come to a conclusion and have shut off the possibility that I may have some insightful bit of information to provide you to might change how you feel on the subject. The flaws in this line of thinking are so numerous, it would be hard to point them all out.

2) You telling me you will be entertained by my trying to answer anyway. This says two things:

a) You just want to bait me into a reply so you can obnoxiously contradict it, or some such thing that provides you with entertainment in some way(?)

b) "Trying" directly implies that you feel the potential of my reply is an "effort", which indirectly implies it will not result in fruition. Combined with the first part of the sentence (you know it can't be done), all you are telling me is that you have no intention of approaching any reply I make with any sort of fairness. That means, my 'effort' is doomed before it even starts. Telling me you know this, and that you will be entertained by it only tells me that you are baiting me so you can 'react' to it, in whatever way it is that will entertain you the most.

Your flame bait is too obvious, and you don't provide me, or anyone else, any genuine impetus to engage you in this discussion you want to participate in. If we were on a real message board and not this heavily moderated php chit-chat room, and I were allowed to actually have an engaging conversation with you while not having to worry about hurting everyone's sensitive feelings, I would take your flame bait. But, I'm not going to do it like this. Too many people on here read dry, impersonal commentary as personal attacks, and while this is preposterous the moderators have made it clear to me that if the conversation doesn't sound fluffy and flirty, it is out of place. So here is a cat in a Pop Tart box to lighten the mood:

[torn asunder]

umm, nevermind... :erm :whistling

[Black Sunday9]

I just got a note from a couple of moderators. They told me how much I rule.

:woot:

[Scary Guy]

KITTEN!!!!!

BTW I'm stil right, just wanted to point that out

[LuluVox]

So... yeah. Arguing about the origins of a genre is pretty pointless, I think. It's just such a subjective thing, really; there's no easy way to pinpoint the beginnings of something that wasn't even labeled as whatever it's known as now until things were already in full swing. Also, as has been pointed out, there were different things going on in different parts of the world at the same time which are likely to fall into the exact same category at the exact same part of the timeline. Trying to go back and get the precise start-date, down to the day / hour / minute is futile. There is no concrete point of reference, so people end up arguing their opinions, not fact (hence why the difference between the two gets pointed out in every post). This has all become something like a dick-measuring contest with a blank ruler.

[Scary Guy]

Ruler might be blank (lucite) but mine is still longer heh

Besides, it's fun to watch the kids argue.

I've seen enough "what is goth, really" sites to form a fair and even oppinion which should make everyone happy (but never seems to) since my view is the most correct (I'm also not the first to have it).

Goth didn't start at any one point, but has always been there, and it's more of a state of mind than a style/scene/genre of music.

If you can appreciate the beauty in wilted flowers, you are at least in some part goth.

And I will beat it into your heads until you get it right (or at least share the same view as me since oppinions can be neither right nor wrong). Because I am a goth nazi, and Andrew Eldritch is mein fürer.

[LuluVox]

Oh my god that picture nearly made me fall out of my work-chair.

And, I think a better way of wording what I said would be, "it's like a dick-measuring contest, but no one can agree on the unit of measurement."

Annnd: I agree with you on the "it's an attitude more than a style of music" thing.

Same goes for punk.

*ducks under desk*

[phee]

Polka anyone?

[LuluVox]

Polka is so punk rock.

[Black Sunday9]

Jestem Polackem-Amerykanen. Mowy po polsku. Polka = bardzo ladny.

[phee]

Weee

[Paper Hearts]

I remember seeing one of those 'Where are they now' things with Spinal Tap and Darrick Smalls, the Bassist, listed the building and completion of the Panama Canal as being a major influencing factor for the start up of rock & roll...the times do coincide...and then Van Halen had that song 'Panama'-anyway, what happened in the late seventies? -if nothing else, i just want the Panama Canal factor into the mix.

[Scary Guy]

Oh my god that picture nearly made me fall out of my work-chair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awesome, then it did its job.

[Fierce Critter]

Jestem Polackem-Amerykanen.  Mowy po polsku.  Polka = bardzo ladny.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jak sie masz. Da mi dupa buzi!!!

[phee]

Jinkua Thak Thak... Twoj

[Black Sunday9]

Jak sie masz. Da mi dupa buzi!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nestety nie wiem.... jestes polackem? masz (mouth?)...... moj jezyk polsku jest slaby. jestem glupie.

Kocham Polka!

[phee]

Seriously I am learning Polish right now so that I can talk to my Fiance's family

[Black Sunday9]

Seriously I am learning Polish right now so that I can talk to my Fiance's family

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well then pay no attention to anything i type above, it will mess you up. my parents are from poland, i suck at speaking it. in hamtramck people are always correcting me when i try to talk to them in polish.

by the way, i used to know how to get all the polich symbols on a keyboard, you hit control then something then something....anyone know how?

[Fierce Critter]

The above lines I typed (How you doing? and Kiss my ass) are about the sum total of what I know in Polish. My parents speak it, but never taught us kids.

So I have no idea what you've been saying, BS, but I'm sure you put me in my place with your 2nd response.