Gun "Control"

[Goth Brooks]

Look up United States vs. Miller, 1939.

There are a number of ways to interpret the Supreme Court's ruling in that case. One of them is as follows: if the government wants your guns, they can take them.

I fail to see how you can interpret that from the rulings of US vs Miller.

[vampvonramm]

How do people feel about the idea of the more guns there are, even if they are legal.... the more there are for criminals to get there hands on either from theft or the black market....

Does less guns period equate to less shooting? Or do you think the more guns there are (legal or otherwise) the less they will be used? Thoughts...

even if there were no more guns, it would take long for ppl to make them, or just start stabbin ppl and runnin them down with cars......i'd take gettin shot over bein gutted like a damn fish any day

[phee]

even if there were no more guns, it would take long for ppl to make them, or just start stabbin ppl and runnin them down with cars......i'd take gettin shot over bein gutted like a damn fish any day

It would make it harder to take a life though wouldn't you say? When was the last time you heard about a drive by knifing?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not too long ago. It's called ganking.

[phee]

Not too long ago. It's called ganking.

Which was more common?

[vampvonramm]

Hell if I hated someone that much id probably prefer stabbin them, its more up close and personal!

[Simon Bar Sinister]

I fail to see how you can interpret that from the rulings of US vs Miller.

I didn't give my interpretation; I'm not a lawyer, and that wasn't my conclusion. I do know that numerous writings on the subject have reached that conclusion; the consensus among that school of thought is that the only reason it won't happen is lack of political will.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Which was more common?

The UK reports 22,000 verifiable knife attacks per year.. though estimates put the actual number of knife attacks per year at closer to 130,000.

Just put thees words in google and hit search "knife death statistics" scroll through the results. it's staggering.

My point is, take away the gun and people go back to the sword. And criminals will still have guns.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I didn't give my interpretation; I'm not a lawyer, and that wasn't my conclusion. I do know that numerous writings on the subject have reached that conclusion; the consensus among that school of thought is that the only reason it won't happen is lack of political will.

then why do so many court cases sight that case as proof against gun control?

you are talking about another "consensus" that doesn't exist.

[Rev.Reverence]

The UK reports 22,000 verifiable knife attacks per year.. though estimates put the actual number of knife attacks per year at closer to 130,000.

Just put thees words in google and hit search "knife death statistics" scroll through the results. it's staggering.

My point is, take away the gun and people go back to the sword. And criminals will still have guns.

Take those away...they will use sticks. Until peoples WANT to have a murder-free society...there WILL be murders.

[Simon Bar Sinister]

then why do so many court cases sight that case as proof against gun control?

you are talking about another "consensus" that doesn't exist.

I've read that non-existent consensus in far too many places to go through. I also said it was one interpretation; there are a few schools of thought on what the decision means. U.S. vs. Miller has been used to make both sides of the argument from a number of different angles.

[n0Mad]

Take those away...they will use sticks. Until peoples WANT to have a murder-free society...there WILL be murders.

Look at the most grisly murder in my area these past few years. Stephen Grant strangled his wife Tara to death. No weapons there except his bare hands. Would a gun have made his job easier? Probably. But people may have heard the shot and called the police. Plus when police searched his house they would've found a bullet mark in the wall if there was one and definitely found the pool of blood in the bedroom. He got caught eventually but it would've happened much sooner had he used a gun. The majority of murderers don't like guns. Most prefer knives with the rest divided among bludgeons, garrotes, and bare hands.

Tara on the other hand, what if she had a gun? More than likely, she'd still be alive. Possibly not, but statistics say she would've survived with a great than 70% chance that no shots would've even been fired.

[phee]

I am not talking about taking guns "away" but control would be nice

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafet.../statistics.htm

Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources

Terrorists have purchased firearms at gun shows, where unlicensed sellers are not currently required to conduct background checks or to ask for identification. According to the Middle East Intelligence Report, for example, a Hezbollah member was arrested in November 2000, after a nine-month investigation by the FBI's counter-terrorism unit. Ali Boumelhem was later convicted on seven counts of weapons charges and conspiracy to ship weapons and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents had observed Boumelhem, a resident of Detroit and Beirut, travel to Michigan gun shows and buy gun parts and ammunition for shipment overseas. Boumelhem was prohibited from legally purchasing guns as gun stores because he was a convicted felon. Additional cases involve a Pakistani national with an expired (1988) student visa; a Lebanese native and Hamas member with numerous felony convictions; and a supporter of the Irish Republican Army. (USA Today, Wednesday, November 28, 2001

Again control:

According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access "Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy"

[phee]

I am posting these items to show that statistics can prove both sides of the argument.

I know that some people reading this will say either "My guns won't stolen because I know how to keep them" But I assure you that out of the 341,000 incidents of firearm theft from private citizens annually from 1987-92, none of them thought they were going to have there guns stolen and they too thought they were being safe.

Another temptation would be to say "But look at where you are getting your information from! That is a biased report" and this may in fact be true, but the same can be said for an equal amount of articals against gun control.

I restate again... I am not for banning firearms... but control is not a bad thing, it is much better then out of control....

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articl...0in%20Crime.htm

FirearmsID.com is a non-profit web site that exists solely as an educational and/or investigative aid.

This site is not affiliated with any government agency, professional organization, or commercial entity.

Stolen guns are a source of weapons for criminals

All stolen guns are available to criminals by definition. Recent studies of adult and juvenile offenders show that many have either stolen a firearm or kept, sold, or traded a stolen firearm.

According to the 1991 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those inmates who possessed a handgun, 9% had acquired it through theft and 28% had acquired it through an illegal market such as a drug dealer or fence. Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least one gun, and 11% had sold or traded stolen guns.

Studies of adult and juvenile offenders that the Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services conducted in 1992 and 1993 found that 15% of the adult offenders and 19% of the juvenile offenders had stolen guns; 16% of the adults and 24% of the juveniles had kept a stolen gun; and 20% of the adults and 30% of the juveniles had sold or traded a stolen gun.

From a sample of juvenile inmates in four States, Sheley and Wright found that more than 50% had stolen a gun at least once in their lives and 24% had stolen their most recently obtained handgun. They concluded that theft and burglary were the original, not always the proximate, source of many guns acquired by the juveniles.

How many guns are stolen?

The Victim Survey (NCVS) estimates that there were 341,000 incidents of firearm theft from private citizens annually from 1987-92. Since the survey does not ask how many guns were stolen, the number of guns stolen probably exceeds the number of incidents of gun theft.

The FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) stolen gun file contained over 2 million reports as of March 1995. In 1994, over 306,000 entries were added to this file including a variety of guns, ammunition, cannons and grenades. Reports of stolen guns are included in the NCIC files when citizens report the theft to law enforcement agencies which submit a report to the FBI. All entries must include make, caliber, and serial number. Initiated in 1967, the NCIC stolen gun file retains all entries indefinitely unless a recovery is reported.

Most stolen guns are handguns

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include information on--

1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)

470,000 rifles (22%)

356,000 shotguns (17%).

From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual average of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns

[n0Mad]

Ah, but just where are many of those stolen guns coming from?

SWAT Truck Emptied, Then Torched

FBI Weapons Cache Stolen

By Brian Hartman ABCNEWS.com

Thieves stole, torched and emptied an FBI special operations van left parked outside a Memphis, Tenn., hotel, looting a cache of high-powered assault weapons, grenade launchers, bullet-proof shields and tear-gas guns. M-16 military rifles, shotguns and ammunition were among the take Tuesday in what FBI officials called a very serious theft. FBI officials are teaming up with Memphis police to blanket the area and recover the stockpile of weapons.

The burned-out shell of the GMC suburban van, emptied of its cargo, was found early Tuesday by Memphis authorities. Included in the stolen cache were bulletproof shields with FBI logos and various sidearms. The van, said FBI special agent John Hancock,belonged to one of a half-dozen FBI special weapons and tactics squads in Memphis for a regional training exercise. Agents from Arkansas had parked the vehicle outside an East Memphis hotel before it was stolen, he said. The vehicle was recovered 10 miles from the hotel.

Agent Downplays Theft

It's an extremely serious situation, Hancock said. These weapons will be recovered and we will find out who committed the theft and we will not stop until the investigation is settled. When asked how such a theft could occur, Hancock said, These weapons could be stolen from a sporting goods store. Would you ask that same question of the sporting-goods store dealer? About 500 officers from various law enforcement agencies and the military were gathering in Memphis for crisis response training.

The incident comes as the FBI, embroiled in controversy and criticism for much of the past year, is basking in praise for its investigation of Timothy McVeigh, convicted Monday on all 11 counts in the Oklahoma City bombing. Agents had hoped the verdict might dispel criticism of the bureau stemming from a Justice Department report about the work of its world-renowned crime laboratory and from its failure to solve last summer s Olympics bombing in Atlanta and two subsequent blasts there.

The bureau also took heat for pursuing the wrong man, Richard Jewell, for three months in the Olympics case and trying to trick him into waiving his right to counsel during an interview. Three agents are being disciplined for their work on that case.

FBI Director Louis J. Freeh likely will be questioned about the Memphis episode at his previously scheduled appearance Wednesday before a Senate committee conducting oversight of the bureau.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

[phee]

Ah, but just where are many of those stolen guns coming from?

It was unclear from the artical... were you trying to support my point or argue against it?

[phee]

From a very old thread:

An Opinionated Short Story from Phee:

The Freedom to own Guns:

It was a lush summer evening in the medium sized town of Gunvillia, the country had just gotten rid of the regulations and restrictions on firearms that were previously in place from the nearly oppresive government. Everyone then went to their local Walmarts, Meijiers, Drug Stores, and fruit stands.... They gleefully purchase their handguns, assault rifles, and other forms of personal protection...

They go back to their homes feeling safe and secure, that they now have the confindence that another will not pull a gun on them for fear of being shot themselves, and they can now protect their families and property with confidence, and if the government gets too pushy, they can simply take their firearms and make it right... The town of Gunvilla, and the rest of the country is at peace.

A half an hour later, Bob Bobertsons car breaks down in Gunvilla in a pleasant looking nieghborhood... He then roles his eyes at his own stupidity for not charging up his cellphone... He looks at his Mac 10 thinking I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive, he breaths a sigh of peaceful and wonderful relief as he puts it in his pocket, and gets out of his car to see if the person who lives in the house that his car stalled out in front of, would be kind enough to make a phone call on his behalf...

Inside the said house, John Johnson has just had a minor fight with his girlfriend and decides to have a couple of beers in his home, after all it is his right to do so in his own home after all. He looks with pride at his Glock 9 thiniking to himself: I am glad I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive... and feels calm and at peace. He sees on the news that a disturbed serial rapest is on the loose, and thinks again: I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive.

John Johnson then looks out his window and sees a black man (Bob Bobertson) approaching his house, and he sees the handle of a weapon in this mans pocket... "The rapist in the area was black" he thinks "And my god in this twilight with a couple of beers, that person comming up my walkway sure looks like the bastard, but I need to be sure" John Johnson pulls his weapon "just in case" and opens his door...

Bob Bobertson sees the door fling open and the man standing their with his gun drawn says: "Are you that black rapist? ANSWER ME!!!" Bob Bobertson says "FUCK" and draws his weapon and looks for cover... Both men share in the thought: I am glad that I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive.

Shots are fired from both parties and Bob Bobertson Is wounded (but for the sake of the story) not killed... John Johnson after realizing the situation, seeing that this man is nopt the rapist, then takes Bob Bobertson to the hospital, feeling guilty, but Bob Bobertson is strangely understanding and say in unison: "I am glad that I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive"

All returns to the peace of before...

Except accross the street where in the gun battle they seemed to no see young Mary Marison age five, playing hopsctotch... They failed to see 2 of John Johnsons rounds and 1 of Bob Bobertsons rounds enter her chest killing her... But Mary's father Mr. Marison did see this, and thinks to himself: "wait a second, I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive, and OMG this can't happen!!!"

Mr. Marison then opens fire with his AK47 on Bob Bobertson and John Johnson upon the to of them returning from the hospital... killing them both... "Now that is over with" he thinks to himself, and begins the process of mourning his daughter... And all was peaceful again.

Accept on the way to the hospital Bob Bobertson had called his wife on John Johnsons cell phone, and explained to her the situation, and that everything was OK... and now that Bob Bobertson was dead over this stupid misunderstanding, Mrs. Bobertson thinks to herself: "But I have the freedom to protect myself, my property and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive, right?" She then calles up her relatives and tells them to grab their Uzi's and get over to her place for some punishment and justice"

Mrs. Robertson and family then storms the Marison house killing Mr. and Mrs. Marison shortly after they got back from the funeral... Everything was then back to normal and it's peaceful self...

Accept the Marisons wern't to happy about what happened to their family and they think to themselves: "We have the freedom to protect myself my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive, and that was simply too harsh" One of the Marisons then says: "You know we could call the police or something" They stop and think this is a good idea...

The police show up at the Bobertsons door to ask a few questions... Now Billy Bobertson has been oppressed by a couple of bad cops before, and now that he has M60 he thinks: "I have the freedom to protect myself, my property and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive." The cops show up and one of them reaches into his pocket for a peace of gum and Billy Bobertson "Lights him up"... a gun battle ensues in the nieghborhood... The people all thinking: " Gosh it is a good thing Ihave the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive"

Carl Carlson is lying in the street bleeding and thinks "I am a passivist. I don't believe in guns... how the fuck did this bullshit happen?... it kind of reminds me of World War One with the alliance system in Europe and how that war started, when the Duke..." He is cut short by a car running over him driven by another passivist trying to get the Fuck out of the area.

Rich Richardson then notices that a lot of his employees that live in that area are being killed in the conflict and sends his heavily armed task force in to "keep the peace" so that he can stop with the workmans comp bullshit and the huge cost of hireing new people thinking: " I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive, and damn this is hurting my business/property."

A few days, deaths, and bombs later in Foriegna, Pierre Frenchie is listening to the story on the news and accindently cuts off Frank Foriegnburg while driving... they both reach for their guns... realize they don't have any, share a laugh and a cophee and continue on to work.

In the not so nearby country of Fuckthewestastan, the current dictator is very happy that we are doing gods work for him and rapes a peasant.

A few years later, people are in their private communes, half starving and with many dead in their family in a more or less civil war for the last few years, all heavily armed thinking: "I have the freedom to protect myself, my property, and family from others who wish to do me harm and I can help overthrow the government if they get too oppressive... and I am glad this whole I am armed you are armed so we leave each other the fuck alone thing worked out so well for us... who needs history? who needs to understand the flawed and violent nature of the human race? we have our freedom, and the government didn't interfere with our 'private' lives."

A native american living in Canada thinks: "figures"

And they all lived happily ever after...

Thanks for reading...

I know that this is an extreme exageration, and that I am over simplifying but I think the point is clear. And I also know that most people have already made up their minds and this won't change that.

[n0Mad]

It was unclear from the artical... were you trying to support my point or argue against it?

I'm just saying that no matter how guns are regulated, even if they're banned outright, criminals will still have them because they just steal them from the people who are supposed to protect us. I was looking for a story where a cache of 1400 guns were stolen from the FBI but couldn't find it so I just posted the above story instead. Do you know how many handguns used in crimes are traced back to cops? Police, FBI, and military fuel the black market more than private citizens do. Not on purpose, well, most of them anyway, but it is a sad truth. So even if you restrict or ban private ownership, it won't change the criminal's supply chain much.

And in response to Phee's fallacious story (which was very entertaining btw, I actually did enjoy it):

[phee]

I'm just saying that no matter how guns are regulated, even if they're banned outright, criminals will still have them because they just steal them from the people who are supposed to protect us. I was looking for a story where a cache of 1400 guns were stolen from the FBI but couldn't find it so I just posted the above story instead. Do you know how many handguns used in crimes are traced back to cops? Police, FBI, and military fuel the black market more than private citizens do. Not on purpose, well, most of them anyway, but it is a sad truth. So even if you restrict or ban private ownership, it won't change the criminal's supply chain much.

And in response to Phee's fallacious story (which was very entertaining btw, I actually did enjoy it):

target="_blank

Thank you sir

But it does go to the point that the more guns there are... the more people die. Saying more guns = less shooting, is kind of like saying A larger Buffet = less eating

As far as the link... I can't really listen to what she is saying at work.... so I will have to check it where I have actual sound

[Oh_My_Goth]

Thank you sir

But it does go to the point that the more guns there are... the more people die. Saying more guns = less shooting, is kind of like saying A larger Buffet = less eating

[n0Mad]

Thank you sir

The video included a lot more than I was expecting. But the point is, Texas had a law where people couldn't bring their guns into restaurants and that made people feel safe. Less guns = less chances for people to do stupid things. Mmm ... warm fuzzies. Suzanna Hupp, being the law abiding citizen she is, left her handgun in her car. After all, nobody needs a gun while eating. And since there's a law stating you can't bring a gun into a restaurant, everyone would be safe, right? Well, some ass hat decided to drive his car through the window then proceeded to walk around executing people. Hupp went for her gun to stop him, but oh shit, she didn't have it. It was in her car in order to keep people safe. 22 people died that day and she could have stopped him.

But it does go to the point that the more guns there are... the more people die. Saying more guns = less shooting, is kind of like saying A larger Buffet = less eating

More guns does not equal more death, but does equal more potential for death. The more guns are restricted from private citizens, the more that innocent people die because you can never reduce the amount of weapons criminals have. But, you increase the amount of weapons that law abiding citizens have, then the tables turn and it's more criminals that die. They try to mug somebody with a CCW? Sure, here's my wallet-BANG! Try to burglarize a house? Only to find the barrel of a shotgun. The thing that criminals fear most is not the police, not harsher prison terms, but they're scared shitless not knowing if their potential victim is armed or not. (I've seen a video where criminals in prison were interviewed and they stated this, but I can't find it with a quick search.)

[phee]

The video included a lot more than I was expecting. But the point is, Texas had a law where people couldn't bring their guns into restaurants and that made people feel safe. Less guns = less chances for people to do stupid things. Mmm ... warm fuzzies. Suzanna Hupp, being the law abiding citizen she is, left her handgun in her car. After all, nobody needs a gun while eating. And since there's a law stating you can't bring a gun into a restaurant, everyone would be safe, right? Well, some ass hat decided to drive his car through the window then proceeded to walk around executing people. Hupp went for her gun to stop him, but oh shit, she didn't have it. It was in her car in order to keep people safe. 22 people died that day and she could have stopped him.

More guns does not equal more death, but does equal more potential for death. The more guns are restricted from private citizens, the more that innocent people die because you can never reduce the amount of weapons criminals have. But, you increase the amount of weapons that law abiding citizens have, then the tables turn and it's more criminals that die. They try to mug somebody with a CCW? Sure, here's my wallet-BANG! Try to burglarize a house? Only to find the barrel of a shotgun. The thing that criminals fear most is not the police, not harsher prison terms, but they're scared shitless not knowing if their potential victim is armed or not. (I've seen a video where criminals in prison were interviewed and they stated this, but I can't find it with a quick search.)

Very well stated sir... I appreciate that....

Just curious though... the man who was doing the executing... where did he get the gun?

[phee]

The video included a lot more than I was expecting. But the point is, Texas had a law where people couldn't bring their guns into restaurants and that made people feel safe. Less guns = less chances for people to do stupid things. Mmm ... warm fuzzies. Suzanna Hupp, being the law abiding citizen she is, left her handgun in her car. After all, nobody needs a gun while eating. And since there's a law stating you can't bring a gun into a restaurant, everyone would be safe, right? Well, some ass hat decided to drive his car through the window then proceeded to walk around executing people. Hupp went for her gun to stop him, but oh shit, she didn't have it. It was in her car in order to keep people safe. 22 people died that day and she could have stopped him.

This is true... but what if he had not been able to buy/steel/come by a gun in the first place? What if he stole it from one of the people he was shooting's house before hand?

If there had been no gun to begin with.... no one would have had to die.

More guns does not equal more death, but does equal more potential for death. The more guns are restricted from private citizens, the more that innocent people die because you can never reduce the amount of weapons criminals have. But, you increase the amount of weapons that law abiding citizens have, then the tables turn and it's more criminals that die. They try to mug somebody with a CCW? Sure, here's my wallet-BANG! Try to burglarize a house? Only to find the barrel of a shotgun. The thing that criminals fear most is not the police, not harsher prison terms, but they're scared shitless not knowing if their potential victim is armed or not. (I've seen a video where criminals in prison were interviewed and they stated this, but I can't find it with a quick search.)

So you are saying that fear = safety?

And by this line of reasoning (to bring up my old metaphor) The larger the buffet the more people can get fat, but when approaching the buffet they will see the other fat people and decide to have a light salad and a bran muffin to stay fit?

[Hellion]

I own 3 guns and they are stored at my dads in the UP,I also know how to make zip guns as well

[vampvonramm]

If guns cause crime then flies must cause garbage!!!