Auto Bailout Fails

[Goth Brooks]

WASHINGTON (AP) — A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...w_v1PwD950UGCO0

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/auto.bailout/index.html

WAY TO FUCK YOURSELVES IN THE ASS!

Can you say "Would you like fries with that?"

p.s. I was against the bailout. Capitalism, gotta love it.

[Azeuron]

way to go UAW lol

pay cut > lost job

[Msterbeau]

So the financial industry, who, in my opinion, are the real source of this mess, gets $700 billion without a plan or anything, and congressional Republicans want to stick it to the auto industry because the UAW won't make immediate wage concessions? This whole thing is fucked and we're all going to pay dearly for it.

[Reaper]

Yeah, this is directly affecting me right now. I think GM is preparing for the worst so they canceled my return run of pistons in Laredo that go up to GM Flint. Now I am stuck here for the weekend with many other drivers trying to get loads out of here. I am against the bailout too and knew what would happen. I just think they need to totally reorganize in order to get back to making money. I think paying out taxpayer money for ANY of these bailouts is a big mistake. Look at what the financial industry is doing; they are making bonuses out of their money and proving that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

[n0Mad]

Nobody says it quite like Jon Stewart:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jh...-the-poor-house

There was another clip I saw on my phone, but I couldn't find it on the website.

[TygerLili]

In the words of my grandmother, "Beggars can't be choosers!"

[DarkVampire]

Unions suck. Way to be greedy UAW.

I can't be against the bail out since it would indirectly effect me. My factory makes parts for cars and one of our customers is Chrysler, our main customer is Toyota so it wouldn't be the end of my factory. There would be some major lay offs though. Everyone needs to look at the big picture. Its not just the big three being effected, its their suppliers as well.

[Reaper]

Unions suck. Way to be greedy UAW.

I can't be against the bail out since it would indirectly effect me. My factory makes parts for cars and one of our customers is Chrysler, our main customer is Toyota so it wouldn't be the end of my factory. There would be some major lay offs though. Everyone needs to look at the big picture. Its not just the big three being effected, its their suppliers as well.

Problem is that the Big 3 have been losing money for years now and haven't averted the danger in the beginning. They put all their hopes that americans would continue to buy gas guzzlers. After the prices at the pump soared, people stopped buying the moneymakers. Hell, they ditched the electric car in california at a time that would have been profitable in the future. With the gap between what the UAW makes compared to the other automakers basically in the south, the UAW is going to have to end up giving up more paycuts. All those legacy costs and union wages are a good part of what brought the Big 3 down just as much as the mistakes of management.

I am slitting my own throat by saying they need to reorganize as well, since I haul the parts from the border. It won't be the end of my job, just the run. But I am not in favor of going over the road to make less money with less miles, but I think if the future is to look good, things have to be torn down NOW and not later down the road, otherwise the suffering will continue.

[Hellion]

Seems like our country will fail as well

wha pissed me off the Republicans asshole are buddy buddy with the banker's and it took no time for them to get bailed out,

I have no idea how this will affect the world's economy.

Our shop is aircraft/military mfg,and contract I do not know how and if this will affect us,we just stated getting overtime

let alone more orders,the place has been in business for about 60 years.

what worries me is my mother's job,my brothers business

and several frinds that work directly or in directly withe the auto industry.

I'd like to know what our unfit government will do when 3

quarters of the U.S. population is unemployed(being sarcastic)

Shit hs now hit the fan.

[n0Mad]

What gets me is part of the finance industry bailout and the auto bailout is government oversight of each business. WTF? The government can't even run America and the country is how many trillions in debt? What makes them think they can run the finance or auto industries any better?

[Michiko_Dreads]

...I knew the bailout was going to fail... no question about it....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

So the financial industry, who, in my opinion, are the real source of this mess, gets $700 billion without a plan or anything, and congressional Republicans want to stick it to the auto industry because the UAW won't make immediate wage concessions? This whole thing is fucked and we're all going to pay dearly for it.

It goes back farther than the financial industry Marc. They do have rules they have to follow, even with deregulation. Those rules are set by congress. The mess traces back to sub-prime lending and the reles that govern it. Rules created by Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Criss Dodd. Rules that forced Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac to loan people money who had no way of paying it back. Rules that inflated land values.

[Rev.Reverence]

What gets me is part of the finance industry bailout and the auto bailout is government oversight of each business. WTF? The government can't even run America and the country is how many trillions in debt? What makes them think they can run the finance or auto industries any better?

&

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I don't know what's going to happen, but I sure hope somebody can make something happen...who knows what'll happen if they actually have to declare bankruptcy. D: I work for a supplier and already we've made multiple job cuts..I'm just praying every day that I'm not next. My section supplies mostly to Ford over the other two, but I fear what will happen to Ford if GM and Chrysler bite the big one. But I'm still optimistic overall...I think they'll pull through somehow. That's why I bought a bunch of Ford stock when it was really really down! I guess we can all just hope...and pray...and do our best at whatever our jobs are, making the best of the situation and trying to play our parts as best we can. >.>

[n0Mad]

[Der Nister]

Blame the workers. Especially, blame the United Auto Workers. That's what we've been hearing from the talking heads over the last several weeks as our auto industry skidded toward the brink of extinction and politicians debated a bailout.

Over and over again, I've heard people repeat that the trouble was that the average UAW worker costs the auto companies $73 per hour. Nice work if you can get it. Matter of fact, it made me want to pack a lunch bucket and trudge off to Dodge Main. Trouble is, when I checked, I found that this statistic is simply not true.

Unionized autoworkers, at least the relatively few still working, made about $28 an hour last year, according to Ann Arbor's respected Center for Automotive Research. Yes, they do get benefits, and benefits cost money. But how could they rack up another $45 an hour in bennies? The answer is that they don't.

By Jack Lessenberry

For more on this click here.

I posted that for those that want to blame the UAW. I'm not a union member but I don't really feel that they are to blame for this.

What I would like to point out to people are some things I think are over looked.

A) Do people realize that the republicans that are trying to stop this bailout have foriegn auto companies that have factories in their states?

B) Did congress or the senate ask wall street what their plans were/are to prevent another finacial crisis on wall street? No they did not - they simply handed them a big fat check courtesy of us, the tax payers.

C) Today on NPR I heard that even Toyoto realizes that if any of the big three go belly up it will hurt them as well and they do not want that to happen.

D) When Katrina hit our southern states GM, Ford and Chrysler donated millions of dollars (no strings attatched btw) to help those that were in need of assistance. Did any of our auto makers ask what they would do to prevent this from happening again? No.

E) Does anyone truely understand how hard this will hit not just Michigan but the entire country?

I say this - regardless of the UAW if we can bailout the rich assholes on wall street (not that I think we should have) we can and damn well should bailout our work force. Save jobs and save ourselves from one hell of a economic downward spiral.

If you think things are bad now - it could be worse beyond any nightmare you can imagine.

[Destroit]

It goes back farther than the financial industry Marc. They do have rules they have to follow, even with deregulation. Those rules are set by congress. The mess traces back to sub-prime lending and the reles that govern it. Rules created by Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Criss Dodd. Rules that forced Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac to loan people money who had no way of paying it back. Rules that inflated land values.

Yes, in short, the Clinton administration is to blame, for the most part, on this catastrophe we are in now. Gotta LOVE trying to be politically correct when it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE...freaking shouldn't they have been out hugging trees someplace in la-la-land INSTEAD of making ridiculous laws trying "to get everyone to be a homeowner"? Not everyone is supposed to be a homeowner. Why do I think this? Because many people are fucking losers and cannot keep a penny in their pockets. Those people shouldn't be homeowners, they should be poor until they fucking wake up and learn some damn common sense - money doesn't come out of NOWHERE. Annnnd...once again we have to pay for it.

Big minus to democrats on this whole mess....BIG MINUS. But somehow, I know someone out there will piece together some crack pot logic to find a way to half assedly blame republicans for this mess, even though the repubs were the ones who tried to stop it from happening in the first place.

I don't understand how logic escapes most Americans so badly...

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Not everyone is supposed to be a homeowner. Why do I think this? Because many people are fucking losers and cannot keep a penny in their pockets. Those people shouldn't be homeowners, they should be poor until they fucking wake up and learn some damn common sense - money doesn't come out of NOWHERE.

...

I don't understand how logic escapes most Americans so badly...

+5

Both sides had a lot to do with it, but I'm sorry, the dems are mostly to blame.

The reason why most people won't think so is because most young people hate republicans. Therefore republicans must be at fault. They are ebil.

[Msterbeau]

Yes, in short, the Clinton administration is to blame, for the most part, on this catastrophe we are in now. Gotta LOVE trying to be politically correct when it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE...freaking shouldn't they have been out hugging trees someplace in la-la-land INSTEAD of making ridiculous laws trying "to get everyone to be a homeowner"? Not everyone is supposed to be a homeowner. Why do I think this? Because many people are fucking losers and cannot keep a penny in their pockets. Those people shouldn't be homeowners, they should be poor until they fucking wake up and learn some damn common sense - money doesn't come out of NOWHERE. Annnnd...once again we have to pay for it.

Big minus to democrats on this whole mess....BIG MINUS. But somehow, I know someone out there will piece together some crack pot logic to find a way to half assedly blame republicans for this mess, even though the repubs were the ones who tried to stop it from happening in the first place.

I don't understand how logic escapes most Americans so badly...

I'm not good with money. Does that make me a loser too? Thanks, once again, for opening your incredibly inconsiderate mouth. A lot of people don't have good financial sense. If they're like me, they likely never will. They need help, not insults. Thanks.

[creatureofthenyte]

This just goes to show that alot of politicians don't give a shit about anyone who isn't rich.

I would be willing to bet that alot of the politicians' rich banker buddies that they bailed out, probably contributed huge amounts of money to the politicians political campaigns.

I have, for a long time, have had a thought: money contributed to a politician's election campaign,IMO, in some cases, is nothing more then a legal form of bribery.

As far as the union goes, I really wish people would stop demonizing them.

If a person works for a company, and has health insurance and pay raises guaranteed to them, I highly doubt that person would turn that down; that is what a union gets for a company employee.

Now, as far as I know, the UAW is the only union that has a jobs bank in place for its members.

If the UAW were to make any more concessions, I think that getting rid of the jobs bank would be the most helpful thing to keep the companies afloat.

For those who don't know what the jobs bank does, it pays a laid-off worker 92% of their regular salary while they look for another job within the company.

It's like built in unemployment benefits.

But also still, it doesn't matter if they make all these cuts, if the public can't get credit, or otherwise cannot afford to buy a car, there is nothing the union can do about that.

I do think though, the current CEO's of the big 3 should be booted out.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I'm not good with money. Does that make me a loser too? Thanks, once again, for opening your incredibly inconsiderate mouth. A lot of people don't have good financial sense. If they're like me, they likely never will. They need help, not insults. Thanks.

The way she said it surely was a bit harsh, but the basic sentiment holds some truth. Not everyone's situation is appropriate for home ownership. The plan to help "less qualified" people own homes resulted in a lot of people who really couldn't afford it buying now only a house, but a house bigger than they needed anyway. If you pull in 20k, you don't need nor should own an 8 bedroom home with a gazebo. You shouldn't sign up for an adjustable rate mortgage on which you can't even afford to pay the interest once it goes up to 8%.

Financial sense is not the only important thing in life, and those who aren't good with money aren't losers. But if you aren't good with money, in general it's good to get advice from someone who is. In exchange you are surely good at something they aren't!

It's true that they need help, not insults. But so many people who are in a bad situation of their own making blame everyone else for it rather than themselves. If it takes a little bit of people scolding them to make them realize that hey, it's not all government's fault, and hey, it's not because of the dems or the repubs or anyone else, but maybe I was dumb too, and hey, sure the bank ran all these really cool ads telling me I should buy a home, don't worry about it, etc, but I didn't necessarily have to sign on the dotted line without reading the fine print, oops!...well, maybe they need help and insults. And maybe they should have looked into getting the help before signing that dotted line.

I get sick of everyone playing the victim sometimes, and I think a lot of people feel the same, so you get a lot of sentiment like the above. It can't be helped, tensions run high with this kind of environment. But let's all stay friends anyway!! XDXD

[Msterbeau]

This just goes to show that alot of politicians don't give a shit about anyone who isn't rich.

I would be willing to bet that alot of the politicians' rich banker buddies that they bailed out, probably contributed huge amounts of money to the politicians political campaigns.

I have, for a long time, have had a thought: money contributed to a politician's election campaign,IMO, in some cases, is nothing more then a legal form of bribery.

As far as the union goes, I really wish people would stop demonizing them.

If a person works for a company, and has health insurance and pay raises guaranteed to them, I highly doubt that person would turn that down; that is what a union gets for a company employee.

Now, as far as I know, the UAW is the only union that has a jobs bank in place for its members.

If the UAW were to make any more concessions, I think that getting rid of the jobs bank would be the most helpful thing to keep the companies afloat.

For those who don't know what the jobs bank does, it pays a laid-off worker 92% of their regular salary while they look for another job within the company.

It's like built in unemployment benefits.

But also still, it doesn't matter if they make all these cuts, if the public can't get credit, or otherwise cannot afford to buy a car, there is nothing the union can do about that.

I do think though, the current CEO's of the big 3 should be booted out.

The job bank is a huge drain on the big three and should be tossed immediately. If they're paying these guys then they should be doing SOMETHING, not sitting on their ass. Toyota put some of it's idled employees to work in the community of the plant helping clean up, etc. That's not a bad thing to do.

With the unions.. the whole "job security" thing is what irks me. Having job security means there's no motivation to do well. I saw it personally. Talented guys who, over time, stopped performing to potential because the rest of the people discouraged excellence. It was sad, really.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

The job bank is a huge drain on the big three and should be tossed immediately. If they're paying these guys then they should be doing SOMETHING, not sitting on their ass. Toyota put some of it's idled employees to work in the community of the plant helping clean up, etc. That's not a bad thing to do.

With the unions.. the whole "job security" thing is what irks me. Having job security means there's no motivation to do well. I saw it personally. Talented guys who, over time, stopped performing to potential because the rest of the people discouraged excellence. It was sad, really.

+10 This is basically everything I feel about the unions, summarized quite nicely.

Unions are important to have, and nice in theory, but the UAW has too much power. A union should work with the company, not against it, and not to its detriment. I don't blame individual UAW workers and I would never ever look down on someone because they are UAW. But the UAW itself I don't believe is a very good thing.

[Msterbeau]

The way she said it surely was a bit harsh, but the basic sentiment holds some truth. Not everyone's situation is appropriate for home ownership. The plan to help "less qualified" people own homes resulted in a lot of people who really couldn't afford it buying now only a house, but a house bigger than they needed anyway. If you pull in 20k, you don't need nor should own an 8 bedroom home with a gazebo. You shouldn't sign up for an adjustable rate mortgage on which you can't even afford to pay the interest once it goes up to 8%.

Financial sense is not the only important thing in life, and those who aren't good with money aren't losers. But if you aren't good with money, in general it's good to get advice from someone who is. In exchange you are surely good at something they aren't!

It's true that they need help, not insults. But so many people who are in a bad situation of their own making blame everyone else for it rather than themselves. If it takes a little bit of people scolding them to make them realize that hey, it's not all government's fault, and hey, it's not because of the dems or the repubs or anyone else, but maybe I was dumb too, and hey, sure the bank ran all these really cool ads telling me I should buy a home, don't worry about it, etc, but I didn't necessarily have to sign on the dotted line without reading the fine print, oops!...well, maybe they need help and insults. And maybe they should have looked into getting the help before signing that dotted line.

I get sick of everyone playing the victim sometimes, and I think a lot of people feel the same, so you get a lot of sentiment like the above. It can't be helped, tensions run high with this kind of environment. But let's all stay friends anyway!! XDXD

I agree... some people took advantage of the new rules. Some people probably aren't that bright and they saw a chance to have a home and never thought the whole thing through. Not everyone does that. We all judge through our own intelligence and experiences instead of realizing that there's a vast difference in peoples abilities. There's enough blame to go around to all the entities involved, but the fact is: the financial companies aren't being made to go through the same hoops for their money.. and they should.

[Destroit]

I'm not good with money. Does that make me a loser too? Thanks, once again, for opening your incredibly inconsiderate mouth. A lot of people don't have good financial sense. If they're like me, they likely never will. They need help, not insults. Thanks.

Every single human being on this Earth is born being "bad with money". Nobody can help these people but themselves and discipline (and possibly influence on how they were raised, but that can be overcame). The world sucks, but that's how it works. Same goes for anyone trying to lose weight - discipline. Anyone trying to quit smoking - discipline. Anyone trying to quit drinking or doing drugs - discipline. You can have as many people throwing tips, advice, help, wtfever your way and it won't work. Why? Because at the end of the day, your problems come down to you controlling them and nobody else.

It's called "don't reach in your pocket, pull out money, and blow it on shit you don't need like five dollar status-symbol lattes from Starbucks and big screen TVs". Nobody forces anyone else to spend their money except for themselves, and if you go out and spend all of your money and turn around asking for handouts, then yeah...I'm sorry but then you lose when it comes to being disciplined.

And no it's not easy, anything worth anything in this world is not easy, I never said it was.

Besides, I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist. I went to your house only a few days ago, you're a homeowner, and you've got some nice furniture. Since you aren't in foreclosure like most other moronic Americans who spent outside of their means, it obviously means you're not as bad with money as most, so I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. The people I'm describing as "losers" are the people that go out and buy their one year old $90 shoes when they're going to grow out of them in a month or two instead of paying their mortgage (and yes, I know these people first hand and I've let them know to their face how I felt).

And I still stand by my point, those people should not own homes, they should have to go through the rapid cycle of renting/eviction/renting/eviction/renting/eviction/renting/eviction until they finally get it right. Owning a home in America should be a privelidge to those who are smart enough to watch their pocket books and make good sound money choices, it should not be a right, and the rest of us should NOT be punished just because some a-hole got a house he couldn't afford and kept spending and spending on frivolous bullshit. I pay my payment every month on time, why should I be affected for everyone else's bad decisions when I'm doing the right thing?