The Biggest Loser DGN Style

[Destroit]

here's where you said 12g of protein.

if you control the amount of calories you take in, there's *absolutely* no need for 3 hrs of cardio.

i'm not rallying anyone against you. i'm asking you to be a little more clear when you make statements about this kind of thing. qualify your remarks with something, because the way you approach this, it's like you're stating irrefutable fact, when that's nowhere near the case. in fact, nothing any one of us says can be considered irrefutable, as there's no definitive evidence one way or another. the fact that you stated something to the affect that "high protein intake is *killing* you from the inside" is ridiculous. i directly challenge you to come up with one study that proves that an adult with healthy organ function and adequate hydration will be harmed by high protein intake. i have several certified trainers/dietitian friends who have been asking for this proof for years, and they'd love to see the evidence. i'll forward it to them as soon as i see it.

i'd also be interested in seeing your sources that show protein only helps in building muscle, but that to maintain it requires high amounts of carbs. i'll forward that to them as well.

Dieticians and personal trainers are not highly qualified individuals. I can actually get certified as a PT in under 6 months. Dieticians, while a little more qualified, are not as educated as doctors usually and have courses that are usually more nutrition oriented and not A&P/Microbiology, and do not cover the range that they do. I believe that even RNs are required to be further educated than dieticians, and that's a 2 year program (at least this was true the last I checked into it, I was originally going to be a nurse but decided against it). I was surprised though that they did not know this because I learned that high protein is bad for your kidneys in Anatomy & Physiology AND Nutrition, they showed us the study on it and shit to do with nephron physiology, maybe I can dig up some of my old stuff or ask one of the professors?

The gist of it though (and even written out it makes sense): Amino acids broken down are turned into building blocks (and other usable stuff) and the waste of it is literally ammonia and small amounts of other by-products. Your body can only handle a certain amount of protein at one time, more protein than it needs and the protein is then stored as fat OR dumped out into your bloodstream as urea (which includes the Windex ). This is then pushed through your nephrons and over-time, it kills them. It also does damage to your liver, but usually kidneys are the hardest hit. This is the reason most of the athletes from back in the day that somehow DIDN'T die are on dialysis for the rest of their lives.

But this weekend I will try to find legitimate direct sources that you can view yourself. I was shown the studies awhile ago and saw them with my own eyes, but I can understand the skepticism on your behalf. Since so many people either exaggerate the truth or make shit up now-a-days I understand the "papers or it isn't true" rhetoric.

Dieticians and personal trainers are not highly qualified individuals. I can actually get certified as a PT in under 6 months. Dieticians, while a little more qualified, are not as educated as doctors usually and have courses that are usually more nutrition oriented and not A&P/Microbiology, and do not cover the range that they do. I believe that even RNs are required to be further educated than dieticians, and that's a 2 year program (at least this was true the last I checked into it, I was originally going to be a nurse but decided against it). I was surprised though that they did not know this because I learned that high protein is bad for your kidneys in Anatomy & Physiology AND Nutrition, they showed us the study on it and shit to do with nephron physiology, maybe I can dig up some of my old stuff or ask one of the professors?

The gist of it though (and even written out it makes sense): Amino acids broken down are turned into building blocks (and other usable stuff) and the waste of it is literally ammonia and small amounts of other by-products. Your body can only handle a certain amount of protein at one time, more protein than it needs and the protein is then stored as fat OR dumped out into your bloodstream as urea (which includes the Windex ). This is then pushed through your nephrons and over-time, it kills them. It also does damage to your liver, but usually kidneys are the hardest hit. This is the reason most of the athletes from back in the day that somehow DIDN'T die are on dialysis for the rest of their lives.

But this weekend I will try to find legitimate direct sources that you can view yourself. I was shown the studies awhile ago and saw them with my own eyes, but I can understand the skepticism on your behalf. Since so many people either exaggerate the truth or make shit up now-a-days I understand the "papers or it isn't true" rhetoric.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Chernobyl

[Destroit]

all i can say to this right now (because i have to get back to work) is that machines really should only be used by individuals who have little to no weightlifting experience. untrained people are likely to lose balance & drop weights, which is why machines can be helpful, but after a while, they can actually be more harmful than anything else. they don't allow for full range of motion, and they don't allow for training of stabilizing musculature. they force the body into predetermined ROMs and can quite easily cause joint misalignments, which are much more likely to cause injury.

Did not know this. I knew the part about the ROM, but thought that if you did both free-weights AND machines that it would take care of this problem. So...after awhile of being back into the swing, sub out machines for just free-weights?

Did not know this. I knew the part about the ROM, but thought that if you did both free-weights AND machines that it would take care of this problem. So...after awhile of being back into the swing, sub out machines for just free-weights?

[torn asunder]

Dieticians and personal trainers are not highly qualified individuals. I can actually get certified as a PT in under 6 months. Dieticians, while a little more qualified, are not as educated as doctors usually and have courses that are usually more nutrition oriented and not A&P/Microbiology, and do not cover the range that they do. I believe that even RNs are required to be further educated than dieticians, and that's a 2 year program (at least this was true the last I checked into it, I was originally going to be a nurse but decided against it). I was surprised though that they did not know this because I learned that high protein is bad for your kidneys in Anatomy & Physiology AND Nutrition, they showed us the study on it and shit to do with nephron physiology, maybe I can dig up some of my old stuff or ask one of the professors?

The gist of it though (and even written out it makes sense): Amino acids broken down are turned into building blocks (and other usable stuff) and the waste of it is literally ammonia and small amounts of other by-products. Your body can only handle a certain amount of protein at one time, more protein than it needs and the protein is then stored as fat OR dumped out into your bloodstream as urea (which includes the Windex ). This is then pushed through your nephrons and over-time, it kills them. It also does damage to your liver, but usually kidneys are the hardest hit. This is the reason most of the athletes from back in the day that somehow DIDN'T die are on dialysis for the rest of their lives.

But this weekend I will try to find legitimate direct sources that you can view yourself. I was shown the studies awhile ago and saw them with my own eyes, but I can understand the skepticism on your behalf. Since so many people either exaggerate the truth or make shit up now-a-days I understand the "papers or it isn't true" rhetoric.

well, the main guy i was thinking of is a CSEP-CPT Instructor/Examiner – Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology (CSEP and a Certified Kinesiologist – Ontario Kinesiology Association ( OKA ). he really knows his shit. i'm going to run what you've posted by him & get his input. i find it hard to believe, but i'm willing to be educated if i'm wrong.

[Destroit]

well, the main guy i was thinking of is a CSEP-CPT Instructor/Examiner – Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology (CSEP and a Certified Kinesiologist – Ontario Kinesiology Association ( OKA ). he really knows his shit. i'm going to run what you've posted by him & get his input. i find it hard to believe, but i'm willing to be educated if i'm wrong.

That's a BIT different than being just a dietitian or PT .

That's a BIT different than being just a dietitian or PT .

[Destroit]

all i can say to this right now (because i have to get back to work) is that machines really should only be used by individuals who have little to no weightlifting experience. untrained people are likely to lose balance & drop weights, which is why machines can be helpful, but after a while, they can actually be more harmful than anything else. they don't allow for full range of motion, and they don't allow for training of stabilizing musculature. they force the body into predetermined ROMs and can quite easily cause joint misalignments, which are much more likely to cause injury.

That's cool, I will keep that in mind. I'll probably hit up the machines for a few months (with free-weights intertwined) and then ween myself off of them. I like how at Bally's if you need a spotter you can ask any PT and they'll do it for free.

That's cool, I will keep that in mind. I'll probably hit up the machines for a few months (with free-weights intertwined) and then ween myself off of them. I like how at Bally's if you need a spotter you can ask any PT and they'll do it for free.

[KatRN05]

I loves me protein. I get about 120grams per day. A little more than what is recommended (60-80 grams I believe) but I absorb it differently. Yeah it can damage my kidneys, eventually, but I drink 3-3.5 liters of water per day. I don't think my kidneys are having any issues yet.

Anyhow, is there any certain way I should be splitting up my weight-training. I can't go every day and was doing a full body routine 3 days a week. Should I split upper and lower body between the days?

Edited November 16, 2010 by KatRN05

[torn asunder]

That's a BIT different than being just a dietitian or PT .

yeah, sorry - haven't talked to him in ages, forgot what he was! most of the people i'm talking about are around this level of education. (maybe 3-4 of them.) i can address the machine issue, but it will likely be tomorrow, as i'm slacking off waaaaaay too much at work today!

[StormKnight (1)]

A inspiring clip for all. Think of it when I work out. Definitely gets the drive going for me.

Awesome show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpJR3Un_uw

[Musashi]

There is a book called "the Art of Expressing the Human Body". All about Bruce Lee's excersise philosphies and practices. It's old but way ahead of it's time. And as far as accuracy goes, just look at any picture of bruce and say that whatever he did didn't work.

[torn asunder]

well, i got a hold of my buddy (and sorry this post will be so long, but he had some good information to share) - here were his questions when i asked about the 12% recommendation you mentioned... (btw, all bolding in this post is mine)

First off the idea that no one should get more than 12% of daily calories form protein is an arbitrary number. It doesn’t really help her defend her point. It’s her first mistake. See 12% of a 10000 kcal diet is 1200 kcal – so about 300g or the person could be consuming 2000 kcal (recommended diet of the avg man (75kg)) an d that would be 240 kcal – about 60 g. Big discrepancy there. Is she trying to claim that the kidneys can actually determine the ratio of diet? Because most organs work on a saturation curve (or threshold). They can only handle so much before it spills over and causes problems. If she wants to get technical it needs to be based on g/kg of mass (lean or total) or a threshold value that the kidney can handle. From all of my research I have never seen a value designated to either.

he did mention that he's sure you did find articles agreeing with your position, (which i didn't really doubt) - he then cited some articles/research papers that show the opposite. here's the rest of his response, and the cited articles (with sources)

As for her finding sources saying it increases risk, well, she will and it will not be hard. But on the other hand I can find tons of sources that say it does not.

I stand by what I said in the first portion of my response. Until we know a value of g/kg or threshold value that the kidney can handle, Proteinuria is only a biomark for a diseased kidney, not the cause of it. It means the kidney is not working optimally.

(articles/sources)

************************************* Comparison of renal function and other health outcomes in vegetarians versus omnivores in Taiwan.

There was no difference in the renal functions between the two groups. However, systolic blood pressure, blood urea nitrogen, serum sodium, glucose, cholesterol levels, and urinary specific gravity were lower in the vegetarian group. Although these results were compatible with general concepts regarding diet of plant origin, after adjusting for age, the duration of intake of this diet had no effect on the renal functions. Based on the findings, it is concluded that the renal functions, in terms of the estimated glomerular filtration rate, were not different between the vegetarians and the omnivores.

Check the diff in protein intakes in this study to see if it works

1. Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC. The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency. Ann Intern Med. 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7.

When comparing the urinary content of ketone between high PRO, low CHO diets to traditional diets the ketone levels were not altered by diet. Both groups exhibited increase in blood urea that was proportional to the protein intake. Overall the data suggested that renal clearance of nitrogen is efficient up to 1.5 g/kg (highest level tested)

__________________________________________________ __________

FROM LYLE (McDonald)– (easier to use his words right now.)

Kidney function

A common criticism of high protein intakes/diets is the concern that they are damaging to the kidneys. This belief seems to stem from the fact that, in individuals with preexisting kidney damage, protein intake often has to be reduced to prevent further development of the disease. Incorrectly, this has been turned around to suggest that high-protein intakes are damaging to the kidneys (1).

There is at best a weak case to be made for a risk of high protein intakes on kidney function; quite in fact, some research suggests a beneficial effect of higher protein intakes on kidney function (2). Simply put, the adaptations to kidney function that are often cited as indicating “strain” or damage are more likely to simply be normal adaptive effects of varying protein intake (1).

Unfortunately, very little research has directly examined the impact of high protein intakes on kidney function in athletes. One study examined the impact of 2.8 g/kg (1.3 g/lb) protein on the kidney function of bodybuilders, no negative effect was seen (3). To my knowledge, higher intakes have not been studied.

Empirically, it’s worth considering that athletes have been habitually consuming large amounts of protein for at least several decades without any reported increase in the incidence of kidney problems. If such a problem were going to occur, it seems likely that it would have shown up by now. While this certainly doesn’t prove that high protein intakes aren’t potentially detrimental to kidney function, the data in support of that idea would seem to be lacking both from a scientific and real-world point of view.

Interestingly, while it’s always been stated that high dietary protein intakes increase fluid requirements, this idea appears to have originated from a military study examining nitrogen balance under conditions of water and energy restriction (1). There is no indication that individuals who are sufficiently hydrated need to go out of their way to increase fluid intake when they are consuming large amounts of protein.

1. Martin WF et. al. Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutr Metab (2005) 2: 25.

2. Millward DJ. Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet. Proc Nutr Soc. (1999)

58(2): 403-13.

3. Poortmans JR and Dellalieux O. Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks

on kidney function in athletes? Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. (2000) 10(1):28-38.

International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, 2006, 16, 129-152 © 2006 Human Kinetics, Inc.

A Review of Issues of Dietary Protein

Intake in Humans

Full text:http://www.humankinetics.com/eJourna.../pdfs/5642.pdf

----- A suggested maximum protein intake based on bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d (little more than 2800 kcal) diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg person (285 to 365 g/d).

__________________________________________________

Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2010 Aug 16. [Epub ahead of print]

Acid diet (high-meat protein) effects on calcium metabolism and bone health.

Cao JJ, Nielsen FH.

USDA, Agricultural Research Service, Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center, Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA.

Abstract

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: Update recent advancements regarding the effect of high-animal protein intakes on calcium utilization and bone health.

RECENT FINDINGS: Increased potential renal acid load resulting from a high protein (intake above the current Recommended Dietary Allowance of 0.8 g protein/kg body weight) intake has been closely associated with increased urinary calcium excretion. However, recent findings do not support the assumption that bone is lost to provide the extra calcium found in urine. Neither whole body calcium balance is, nor are bone status indicators, negatively affected by the increased acid load. Contrary to the supposed detrimental effect of protein, the majority of epidemiological studies have shown that long-term high-protein intake increases bone mineral density and reduces bone fracture incidence. The beneficial effects of protein such as increasing intestinal calcium absorption and circulating IGF-I whereas lowering serum parathyroid hormone sufficiently offset any negative effects of the acid load of protein on bone health.

SUMMARY: On the basis of recent findings, consuming protein (including that from meat) higher than current Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein is beneficial to calcium utilization and bone health, especially in the elderly. A high-protein diet with adequate calcium and fruits and vegetables is important for bone health and osteoporosis prevention.

Dietary protein safety and resistance exercise: what do we really know?

Lowery LM, Devia L.

J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2009 Jan 12;6(1):3. [Epub ahead of print]

PMID: 19138405

ABSTRACT: Resistance trainers continue to receive mixed messages about the safety of purposely seeking ample dietary protein in their quest for stimulating protein synthesis, improving performance, or maintaining health. Despite protein's lay popularity and the routinely high intakes exhibited by strength athletes, liberal and purposeful protein consumption is often maligned by "experts". University textbooks, instructors, and various forms of literature from personal training groups and athletic organizations continue to use dissuasive language surrounding dietary protein. Due to the widely known health benefits of dietary protein and a growing body of evidence on its safety profile, this is unfortunate. In response, researchers have critiqued unfounded educational messages. As a recent summarizing example, the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) Position Stand: Protein and Exercise reviewed general literature on renal and bone health. The concluding remark that "Concerns that protein intake within this range [1.4 - 2.0 g/kg body weight per day] is unhealthy are unfounded in healthy, exercising individuals." was based largely upon data from non-athletes due to "a lack of scientific evidence". Future studies were deemed necessary. This assessment is not unique in the scientific literature. Investigators continue to cite controversy, debate, and the lack of direct evidence that allows it. This review discusses the few existing safety studies done specific to athletes and calls for protein research specific to resistance trainers. Population-specific, long term data will be necessary for effective education in dietetics textbooks and from sports governing bodies.

Forward Message

[KatRN05]

I went to a HIIT class today. It was pretty awesome. It was thirty minutes of intense work. I'm still having a problem with my calories. I have been only eating 1200 calories per day and I think that its very low for the amount of exercise I do each week. So for the rest of this week and next, I'm going to eat 1600 calories on the days I workout, 1200 on days I am not, just to see how it goes.

Edited November 18, 2010 by KatRN05

[Destroit]

Tonight is abs...fun fun.

Tonight is abs...fun fun.

[torn asunder]

I went to a HIIT class today. It was pretty awesome. It was thirty minutes of intense work. I'm still having a problem with my calories. I have been only eating 1200 calories per day and I think that its very low for the amount of exercise I do each week. So for the rest of this week and next, I'm going to eat 1600 calories on the days I workout, 1200 on days I am not, just to see how it goes.

excellent idea! you may find that you won't need to drop it back down, either, and that you'll recover more quickly with a bit more calories!

[Musashi]

HIIT is AWESOME! Super short workout that is way effective and continues to burn throughout the day. You'll be ravenously hungry all day. Try not to resist the temptation to eat. That's actual hunger you're feeling. When doing HIIT the whole small meal/snack every 2-4 hours is very effective and it keeps the metabolism working (that's why you're so hungry).

As for myself I've been slacking hard core since I've been on midnights. Just have no energy for anything, I never see the sunlight, I haven't been to martial arts class in weeks and it's so hard not to just eat whatever terrible crap I can get my hands on whenI get home. I need to get back on track or I'ma lose all the great progress I've made. I actually sort of have a 6 pack now. At least I'm getting very close...and I'm about to lose it. Sigh. Sometime this week I'll get my weights and inversion table inside (currently in the cold garage) and start up the martial arts again when I get my auto problems handled. I just hope I can get off the midnights soon. I think it might be fucking with my head a little bit.

[KatRN05]

I loved that HIIT class. It's taught by one of the KM instructors and I will be going again this week for sure. I work tonight so depending on how I feel I might go to kickboxing in the morning. If not, I'm not doing anything til Tuesday night when I have KM class.

[KatRN05]

I didn't get to the gym today so I did some Tabata training (another form of HIIT) for 8 minutes. I have an interval timer from gymboss. I did four minutes of squats and four minutes of kettlebell swings with my 20lb kettlebell. I need to do this workout more often. I read that it doesn't need to be a long workout to even be effective.

[KatRN05]

Went to the gym. Ran 5 minutes to warm up. 14 minutes of HIIT on the treadmill, 1 minute at 6mph, 1 minute at 4mph. I lifted weights as well.

[Musashi]

Well got back on the workout train. Getting ready for when I'm back in martial arts class (should be any time now as soon as I get my wheels. have cash for a car, just finding one is proving difficult.). Started doing a bit of a modified p90x. Btw, P90x is good shit. the instructor may be a bit of a douche, but he knows his shit. It's really a great program, even if just for guidelines and reference points. Anyway I decided to do instead of the daily cardio program (roughly about 45 minutes), I'm replacing that with daily kenpo x. By which I mean using that as a guideline and timer (I actually practice kung-fu so it's not exactly the same, but it counts the same). After an hour of martial arts practice I can do either yoga or lift weights. I haven't tried the yoga yet, but I hear it's amazing to supplement with martial arts as it increases strength, flexibility, and endurance. I also hear it's mega hard if you've never done it before.

So today, I did an hour of cardio before breakfast, then after breakfast did a 17 minute ab/core routine (mason twists are hard!!) Tomorrow I'm gonna step it up with an hour of cario, then an hour (after eating of course) of more martial arts practice or oen of the weight programs. Or maybe yoga. Haven't decided yet. Either way I'm gonna be getting a great quality work out. Just not enough time in the day to do everything I want. If I had it my way I'd do an hour of light martial arts practice before breakfast, then an hour of more intense practice after eating, then an hour or so of weight and/or core training depending on the day and how spry I'm feeling.

My overall goal is to be strong with very defined muscles while being flexible and durable for martial arts. Basically I wanna be like bruce lee when I grow up. Perfect package. Strong, fast, flexible, and focused. I mean the guy only weighed 135# at his peak and could do push-ups with 2 fingers on one hand. He could also make a 300# heavy bag hit the ceiling with a side kick (p.s. that's the kind of kick that could kill you).

Anyway, a little light headed so gonna stop babbling. If anyone has any advice for me I'm happy to listen.

Oh, also, I see a lot of people arguing whether cardio or weights are better for burning fat. The answer is if you really want to do the best you can, do both. Stop overthinking. Think about what you're doing/going to do, yes. But overthinking is just going to give you a headache.

[KatRN05]

Totally agree. If you want to burn fat, lift weights and do cardio. Preferably cardio before weights.

[KatRN05]

Went to KM on monday. Tuesday went to the gym to do some cardio and weight-lifting. Last night, I went to KM class and ground-fighting. Today, I went to the gym and did HIIT on the treadmill for 20 minutes then lifted weights. I also weighed myself today and have lost three pounds. Tomorrow I am gonna rest then back at it Saturday and Sunday.

Edited December 2, 2010 by KatRN05

[victoriavengeance (1)]

lost my thanksgiving weight plus 5 pounds woo.

[kat (1)]

lost my thanksgiving weight plus 5 pounds woo.

I have your 5 lbs:)

It has somehow attached itself to my ass.

(Just kidding, great job but I did gain like 5 lbs).

[victoriavengeance (1)]

give it back biiitch XD

[KatRN05]

It's so bad having four days off. I am going back to the gym tomorrow morning.

[Invictus]

10 hours of judo over the weekend.