Unitarian?

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Ok so this struck my curiousity in another forum, but the conversation is best pursued here where it belongs. What exactly is this religion? I'm a monotheist looking for others with similar beliefs, but I tend to find thats not easy to come by in this world.

[Black Sunday9]

Ok so this struck my curiousity in another forum, but the conversation is best pursued here where it belongs.  What exactly is this religion?  I'm a monotheist looking for others with similar beliefs, but I tend to find thats not easy to come by in this world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you're a monotheist in what sense? what exactly do you believe? I assume you are reffering to people who followed the beliefs of Martin Cellarius.

If that is so, why is a unitarian different from a jew? Is it because you believe no messiah has ever existed and never will exist?

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

you're a monotheist in what sense?  what exactly do you believe?  I assume you are reffering to people who followed the beliefs of Martin Cellarius. 

If that is so, why is a unitarian different from a jew?  Is it because you believe no messiah has ever existed and never will exist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all. I believe in a Messiah. I also believe the Messiah was Christ. I don't believe that Christ is God. I also don't believe in sin the same way most Christians are taught. Christ said to love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies too, and you have already fulfilled the law. Not one of the ten commandments can be broken outside of this. However, Jewish laws that carried on through the New Covenant, despite the Old Covenant being fulfilled have still pushed Christians more towards prejudice, malice, hate, shame, guilt, fear, and wrath. Many people walk away from the Church, because they learn the loving God they've always known and felt no longer exists, or they've never known him.

Peter was presented with a feast that an angel provided him with one day. Peter refused to partake of this feast, because the meat was "unclean". The angel had told Peter not to call unclean was God has made clean. He was asking Peter to accept the Gentiles, and to teach them love and forgiveness. Is this what happened? No. What happened instead is despite the teachings of Christ, Paul (originally Saul and a highly respected Jewish leader) came to believe in Christ and took it upon himself to make Christianity appealing to the Jews and the people of Rome. His own prejudices have perverted the word of Christ now for centuries. This is why so many people have walked away from faith. God never intended man to be ashamed, fearful, or to be plagued with guilt for things that he thought in his heart to be justified. Why would a God who created us in "his" image, be ashamed of us? He loves us as we are and always has, and will always love us even when we we've forgotten him. Yet even many churches have forgotten him. They believe in words, laws, rituals, and their faith is weak. They judge others based on actions they commit themselves, yet they try to hold themselves to the standards of the cirumsised (and I'm not speaking flesh here), when that Covenant was established for a godless race of men who needed those laws to have any form of civility. Christ did not say to break the law no. Peter on the otherhand was instructed to accept these people as they were, since Christ had destroyed sin, death, and the evils that were penetrating our primitive natures.

In closing, I just want to say that I have always felt a closeness with God even before I knew what God was. Everything I was taught growing up as a Catholic painted this entity as a monster that hated men. This is why I walked away from the Church, and why I am a monotheist now. I do not believe in praying to anything else but God for one. For two, I believe the body of Christ is the church, and not some organization that passes judgments upon everyone to profit on distorting the truth.

[Black Sunday9]

I thought most monotheist don't believe in the messiah? I guess I could be wrong.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

I thought most monotheist don't believe in the messiah?  I guess I could be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monotheism only suggests that you believe in one God.

[Black Sunday9]

Monotheism only suggests that you believe in one God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I know, that is why I asked above, but Unitarians, I could have sworn, do not believe in Father-Son-Holy ghost.....which you seem to. So I thought your topic being called Unitarian and a reference to yourself as a monotheist was one in the same.

By the way, why do you believe Jesus is the son of God but still not a diety? Obviously you believe the new testament to be the word, In the four gospels Jesus was able to cure the sick (matt 8:1), Cast out demons (Luke 4:33), walk on water (matt, mark, john in various places), turn water to wine (john 2:1), etc

It seems that the new testament claims that jesus is god. Again, I could be wrong but that'show I interpret it.

[torn asunder]

not to butt in, but i'm just as much a son of god as christ was - i think this is where people get confused, and where organized religion fails. there is no "us", there is no "them" - we are all one, and i think that is the message every great spiritual leader has tried to tell us. we just selectively listened... :erm

[phee]

Unitarian Universalism (UU or UUism) is a liberal religious tradition that was formed by the merger of Unitarian and Universalist groups. Its roots are in Protestantism, although belief in Christianity is no longer required for adherents to modern Unitarian Universalism. Most modern Unitarian Universalists (UUs) do not consider themselves Christian.

Unitarian Universalism has its origin, and most of its adherents, in the United States, where its largest organization is the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA). The Unitarian Universalist Service Committee is a related nonsectarian organization which started out of an effort to smuggle Jews and other targeted groups out of Nazi Germany. The UUSC works to promote social justice and human rights around the world. Unitarian Universalist churches worldwide are represented in the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists (ICUU).

The Principles of the Unitarian Universalist Association

"We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote"

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

"The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:"

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;

Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;

Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;

Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.

Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

[Fierce Critter]

I was, at one time, interested in the UU church because of it's inclusiveness. I discovered Marianne Williamson's Church of Today when I applied for and was actually offered a job working in their publications department (had to turn it down due to distance). I've seen some of her services televised, and they were inspirational in their open-mindedness.

The website seems to indicate the Church Of Today is no more, and now they're Renaissance Unity or something, and it appears Williamson isn't with them anymore. Their "about us" page says they're Christian-based. That was kinda evident during her sermons/talks, but she often referenced other religious figures like Buddha & Allah. With her, you got the feeling just about any religion/spirituality really was welcome.

I was particularly convinced when, upon interviewing with the publications dept. head, we got to speaking conversationally, and I referenced my then new husband and how happy I was that we'd found each other. The supervisor said something like, "Thank God!" and I, without thinking, replied, "Thank WHOMEVER!" I figured, ack - lost the position right there. But she herself was the one who called me to offer me the position, so it appeared they really did have open minds.

Phee's copy/paste above makes me ponder, however. They get specific about including Judaism & Christianity, but are more vague on the rest, seeming to reference schools of philosophical thought by the line that comes before the "Jewish/Christian" one, then seeming to include more scientific beliefs and, with the last line, possibly even paganism. I wonder why they don't just say, "all religions/spiritualities", and wonder if it's 'cause they don't want to include stuff like Satanism...

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Yeah, I know, that is why I asked above, but Unitarians, I could have sworn, do not believe in Father-Son-Holy ghost.....which you seem to.  So I thought your topic being called Unitarian and a reference to yourself as a monotheist was one in the same. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'm only searching for people with similar beliefs, and was curious about Unitarians.

By the way, why do you believe Jesus is the son of God but still not a diety?  Obviously you believe the new testament to be the word, In the four gospels Jesus was able to cure the sick (matt 8:1), Cast out demons (Luke 4:33), walk on water (matt, mark, john in various places), turn water to wine (john 2:1),  etc

It seems that the new testament claims that jesus is god.  Again, I could be wrong but that'show I interpret it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Father Solanus was able to do many of the same things. Do we worship him as well? Christ was a messenger. He was the Messiah, but he was not God. He is the one Isiah foretold would come to bring God's message. There is nothing profound about the miracles that Christ performed. God acts through many men, and without God, Christ is nothing, just as without God we are nothing. Christ may be the gatekeeper, but he is not the gate. The Holy Spirit is not God either. The holy spirit is the spirit of truth and fire that descended upon the apostles to instruct them. This spirit resides in men today as well as a reference to God. The divine spirit intercedes for the saints, and I'm not talking Catholic appointed saints here, but men of Faith. This is the same spirit Jesus was born with that he gave to us. The reason Catholics pray to saints despite the warnings against communicating with the dead, and worshipping anything but God, is because they have misinterpreted this. I don't really think its a matter of interpretation though, but really a matter of Rome having power. You should do some research on inquisitions that the Roman Church has incited throughout history to dispel anything they saw as heresy, in an effort to remain the "One True Church". This is in itself heresy, because the body of Christ is the "One True Church".

[Black Sunday9]

what makes you think I don't know the history of the catholic church?

how are catholics doing the misinterpretation when it's pretty clear the Peter was a "special" apostle? In fact, if there is a God and Jesus, I would say the catholics got it right.

here are some quotes from the bible:

"I and my Father are one." John 10:38

" Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Philippians 2

I also remember Paul saying that Jesus was God.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

"I and my Father are one."  John 10:38

" Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Philippians 2

I also remember Paul saying that Jesus was God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him. John 10:38

This could be translated as "I and my Father are one", but only in the sense of unity. To say otherwise would be the same as saying you are God, or I am God. God is his own being. We are all parts of the same body, and the same church. Jesus is the head of that Church, but even Jesus submits to the Father. Common sense tells me that Satan would never test God. Its common knowledge that the devil needs permission from God to do anything. So why would Satan test Jesus in the desert, if in fact Jesus was God? Would there really be a point?

(46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

Are you in fact suggesting that Jesus was talking to himself?

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:6-8

Many men have been in the "form of God". This only suggests that they are delivering God's message. Moses himself was in the form of God when he brought down the commandments. His appearance had even changed. Was he God also? I think not.

I've posted my arguments and beliefs regarding this, and really don't choose to debate this topic. I don't rely on scripture for my faith, nor do I wish to have a scripture battle with anyone. I am not here to convince anyone of anything, but only to speak what is in my heart, and further confirm that there is probably not very many people who share the same beliefs that I do. Despite the fact that I find this disappointing, I realize that my own isolation throughout my life has caused me to accumulate quite a few unpopular opinions. Either way, regarding my faith, I have no doubt in my heart, soul, or mind that what I say is true, nor have I ever doubted. This is something I'm entirely closed minded about, and perhaps the only thing in life that I am this close minded about to this extent. I have my own reasons for that.

[Guest Game of Chance]

[i've posted my arguments and beliefs regarding this, and really don't choose to debate this topic.  I don't rely on scripture for my faith, nor do I wish to have a scripture battle with anyone.  I am not here to convince anyone of anything, but only to speak what is in my heart, and further confirm that there is probably not very many people who share the same beliefs that I do.  Despite the fact that I find this disappointing, I realize that my own isolation throughout my life has caused me to accumulate quite a few unpopular opinions.  Either way, regarding my faith, I have no doubt in my heart, soul, or mind that what I say is true, nor have I ever doubted.  This is something I'm entirely closed minded about, and perhaps the only thing in life that I am this close minded about to this extent.  I have my own reasons for that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of certainty as opposed to faith. Prove it to me, and I'll believe it. But then again, there are certain things that can only be proven through personal experience. I'm fairly certain that Nothing is God, yet God is everywhere. I have had a number of spiritual experiences that have proven this to me. Imagine my dilemma. There are a couple of sayings that kinda sets the tone for my household. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, Love under Will. Honestly bro, it sucks, but unless you find someone who shares your beliefs, I've found its best to keep them to yourself. Good luck.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of certainty as opposed to faith.  Prove it to me, and I'll believe it.  But then again, there are certain things that can only be proven through personal experience.  I'm fairly certain that Nothing is God, yet God is everywhere.  I have had a number of spiritual experiences that have proven this to me.  Imagine my dilemma.  There are a couple of sayings that kinda sets the tone for my household.  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.  Love is the Law, Love under Will.  Honestly bro, it sucks, but unless you find someone who shares your beliefs, I've found its best to keep them to yourself.  Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd be inclined to agree with you there. Faith is certainty to me though. If someone has faith in themselves for example, they have no doubts whatsoever. Fear and doubt are the opposite of faith. I do tend to keep my beliefs to myself though personally, unless someone asks. This tends to make life a lot easier. I'm sure everyone has experience something happening to them, that was a bit extreme or even unbelievable, and no matter how they tried to explain this to someone else, because that other person has not experienced it, they could not truly convince that person, no matter how sane or rational they'd always known them to be. It’s a little more difficult when an experience like this relates to the very meaning of life, but I've found it best to let people find their own meaning. I could write a book on my faith, and why I have it. I could explain how and why I believe the world is coming to an end. What would this accomplish though? We're all taught to convey this great message, and for those who have been spiritually awakened to instruct others and assemble. Most people don't want to let go of what they understand though. Fear and shame can be destructive forces that most men are not willing to face. Self-denial can be a very painful thing for prideful men.

I think everyday that Satan's greatest victory was opening our eyes. In doing so he blinded us from truth, and made it very difficult to obtain. Now our concept of truth is distorted by the limited senses that we have. Sight, touch, smell, sound, and taste overrule the possibility of anything beyond what can be explained by those very senses. What belongs to the world, can only understand the world in worldly terms.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. (19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (20) Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. (21) But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. (22) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. (23) He that hateth me hateth my Father also. (24) If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. (25) But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. (26) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (27) And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15:18-27

The spirit of truth is the sense that many of us have yet to understand. This sense defies all logic, and is therefore usually discarded in an effort to stay grounded in believing in the world that we've grown to love and trust. Unfortunately you can not prove spiritual matters using physical means, nor can you prove physical matters using spiritual means. This is why most people with any belief at all are stuck with “blind faith”, because they have not developed and matured spiritually, but rather rely on the development provided by a society that "believes in what they see".

Another problem with this though, is there was a time when men needed to believe in what they saw. This problem was addressed with the birth of Christ. Yet even though we saw, and were even granted the spirit of Truth after his resurrection, we still do not believe. Every man's soul is a battlefield. The only way to cultivate the soul and understand the Spirit is to live in love. By doing this alone, men can understand truth. It should not take the 2nd coming of Christ to judge the living and the dead, for people to know of the power of God, and understand our purpose here. It probably will though, so I rest my case. =)

[Msterbeau]

Thanks for posting that Phee.

UU is a very liberal and very inclusive "religion" . I think it's main difference from many others is that it allows for individuals to constantly reevaluate their beliefs in spiritual matters... on life in fact... and to change course as they see fit. It's not so much a religion as an association (It is officially the Universalist Unitarian Association) of congregations that identify with the basic principles and purposes as laid out by the UUA. They're are certainly people who identify with Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buhdist and other faiths that are UU. They're are certainly pagans and other earth-based spiritual practices that are UU also. Satanists?? Not that I know of... But I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid if there were. Why would you be UU if you believed in other things? I think many disagree with some of the dogmas of their faith and so they get to pick and choose what feels right without feeling hypocritical. Also, If a married couple is of two different faiths, it's a place to worship where both feel included. UU's are generally very open and accepting of gays/TG's/lesbians etc...

Personally, I'm very humanist in my spiritual practice. Most UU's have a strong element of that as part of their belief system. I care more about what happens here then in some afterlife. "God" to me is in all things and in the mysteries of our lives. The first time I attended a service and read they're literature, I felt right at home..

[torn asunder]

This could be translated as "I and my Father are one", but only in the sense of unity.  To say otherwise would be the same as saying you are God, or I am God. 

i have, in fact, stated this on the old board more than once - i am god, just as you are, as we all are. i personally find it difficult to argue/debate with *most* anyone affiliated with an organized religion for one simple reason - if you remove their "bible" from the debate, they're completely lost. my reason for having this issue is that, again, *most* of them will say something to the effect of "the bible is god's word" (well, how do you know?) "because it says so in the bible". using that kind of logic, i could write a book that said i was god, and i could then refer to the book for proof i was... "see? i wrote this book here, and it says in this book that this is the word of god, so i must be god, 'cuz i wrote it..."

as an afterthought, i will post an email i received, which illustrates the issues i have with taking the x-tian bible at it's word...

DISCLAIMER:

I received this email from a friend. I do not contend to agree or disagree with its contents or p.o.v. I have on occassion listened to the Dr. Laura show and have found some of her points amusing, mainly due to the clueless idiots seeking advice from her. Nuff said.

Subject: Dr. Laura

>

>

> Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice

> to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that,

> as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination

> according to the Old Testament, Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be

> condoned under any circumstance.

> The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US

> resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as

> informative.

> Dear Dr. Laura:

> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

> I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that

> knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend

> the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that

> Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of

> debate.

> I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other

> specific laws and how to follow them.

> 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it

> creates a pleasing smell for the Lord - Leviticus 1:9. The problem

> is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.

> Should I smite them?

> 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in

> Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what to you think would be a fair

> price for her?

> 3. I know that I am not allowed to have contact with a woman while

> she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Leviticus 15:19-24.

> The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women

> take offense.

> 4. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both

> male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring

> nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but

> not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

> 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus

> 35:2 clearly states she should be put to death. Am I morally

> obligated to kill him myself?

> 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an

> abomination - Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than

> homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

> 7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God

> if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading

> glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle

> room here?

> 8. Most of my male friends get their hair cut, including the hair

> around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by the

> bible, in Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

> 9. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead

> pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

> 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting

> two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing

> garments mad of two different kinds of thread (cotton and polyester

> blend). He also tends to curse a lot. Is it really necessary that

> we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone

> them? - Leviticus 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at

> a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their

> in-laws? Leviticus 20:14

> I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident

> you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is

> eternal and unchanging.

> Your devoted fan, Jim

>

and now, i'll shut up... :fear

[Guest Game of Chance]

Faith is certainty to me though.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Faith is most certainly :doh not certainty. Certainty is certainty. Faith is faith. Certainty is inner understanding of an event. Faith is a blind belief without actually knowing for sure, but instead...having faith.

Semantics bro, but as an etymologist and avid and longtime student of the Qabalah, these things are important to me.

Nevertheless, good luck in your quest.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

I couldn't disagree with you more.  Faith is most certainly  :doh not certainty.  Certainty is certainty.  Faith is faith.  Certainty is inner understanding of an event.  Faith is a blind belief without actually knowing for sure, but instead...having faith.

Semantics bro, but as an etymologist and avid and longtime student of the Qabalah, these things are important to me.

Nevertheless,  good luck in your quest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

6. A set of principles or beliefs.

I'm guessing you're getting at definition #2 which really isn't faith at all, but blind faith. People with faith have logical proof, and know without a doubt that something is true. Whether this logical proof has been recorded in our histories, experienced, or just known through communication of the Spirit, is of no importance. It still exists for that individual.

Confident belief in the truth is certainty per definition 1.

Semantics yes, but many words have different meanings, and when I use faith in any statement, I never speak of blind belief. Believing in anything blindly is foolish. You either know or you don't. Even one who claims to be Christian cannot truly be Christian if he has doubts. That would make him agnostic.

[Guest Game of Chance]

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

  3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

  4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

  6. A set of principles or beliefs.

I'm guessing you're getting at definition #2 which really isn't faith at all, but blind faith.  People with faith have logical proof, and know without a doubt that something is true.  Whether this logical proof has been recorded in our histories, experienced, or just known through communication of the Spirit, is of no importance.  It still exists for that individual.

Confident belief in the truth is certainty per definition 1.

Semantics yes, but many words have different meanings, and when I use faith in any statement, I never speak of blind belief.  Believing in anything blindly is foolish.

The key word here is belief.  Belief is not certainty, sorry friend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

The key word here is belief.  Belief is not certainty, sorry friend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you don't confidently believe that 1+1=2, but you can be certain of it? I'm not following you.

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.

2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.

3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

I mean we could argue semantics all day long and go nowhere, but belief by itself suggests certainty per defintion 2, and confident belief would definitely be certainty.

[Guest Game of Chance]

> Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice

> to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that,

> as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination

> according to the Old Testament, Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be

> condoned under any circumstance.

> The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US

> resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as

> informative.

> Dear Dr. Laura:

> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

> I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that

> knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend

> the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that

> Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of

> debate.

> I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other

> specific laws and how to follow them.

> 1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it

> creates a pleasing smell for the Lord - Leviticus 1:9. The problem

> is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.

> Should I smite them?

> 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in

> Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what to you think would be a fair

> price for her?

> 3. I know that I am not allowed to have contact with a woman while

> she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Leviticus 15:19-24.

> The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women

> take offense.

> 4. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both

> male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring

> nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but

> not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

> 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus

> 35:2 clearly states she should be put to death. Am I morally

> obligated to kill him myself?

> 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an

> abomination - Leviticus 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than

> homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

> 7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God

> if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading

> glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle

> room here?

> 8. Most of my male friends get their hair cut, including the hair

> around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by the

> bible, in Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

> 9. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead

> pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

> 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting

> two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing

> garments mad of two different kinds of thread (cotton and polyester

> blend). He also tends to curse a lot. Is it really necessary that

> we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone

> them? - Leviticus 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at

> a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their

> in-laws? Leviticus 20:14

> I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident

> you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is

> eternal and unchanging.

> Your devoted fan, Jim

This could very well be the funniest shit i have ever read. Thanks dude, another arrow in my quiver. :cheerful

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

i have, in fact, stated this on the old board more than once - i am god, just as you are, as we all are. i personally find it difficult to argue/debate with *most* anyone affiliated with an organized religion for one simple reason - if you remove their "bible" from the debate, they're completely lost. my reason for having this issue is that, again, *most* of them will say something to the effect of "the bible is god's word" (well, how do you know?) "because it says so in the bible".  using that kind of logic, i could write a book that said i was god, and i could then refer to the book for proof i was... "see? i wrote this book here, and it says in this book that this is the word of god, so i must be god, 'cuz i wrote it..."

as an afterthought, i will post an email i received, which illustrates the issues i have with taking the x-tian bible at it's word...

and now, i'll shut up...  :fear

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen that before. The only problem with that, is it throws in laws of the Old Covenant, that are of course no longer applicable. The Bible is a good reference for Truth, but really unnecessary if you have Truth. Thats not to say, that I don't believe in it, but in all honesty I think the only thing a blind man would ever truly need are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelations, unless he's really lost. The Old Testament is valueable for historical reference, but really has nothing to do with anything anymore, unless you're Jewish (at least where faith is concerened). Everything between the gospels and Revelations can serve as a good reference as to how one should live their life, but most of it is common sense. In the end the Spirit means a lot more though where instruction is concerned.

Law in itself is not the Word of God. Nor is law even essential in the New Covenant. Yet, this is just another reason I walked away from the Catholic Church. They make hypocrites of themselves. Of course the Jews are no better. They reject the Messiah, but do not hold true to the law. I can't remember the last time one of my Jewish friends was murdered for stricking his Father for example.

[Guest Game of Chance]

So you don't confidently believe that 1+1=2, but you can be certain of it?  I'm not following you.

  1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.

  2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.

  3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

I mean we could argue semantics all day long and go nowhere, but belief by itself suggests certainty per defintion 2, and confident belief would definitely be certainty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I'm certain that 1 + 1 = 0, but thats a completely different subject. Lol, your whole post is any oxymoron. Belief does imply a mental acceptance and a conviction, but thats where the agreement stops. Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean its true. I've worked with mental patients who confidently believe that the people on TV are actually talking to them, directly. I think that every mental health professional in the world would agree that although they are confidently believing this, it certainly is not the truth. And I hate to get you to question your core values and dogma, but it sounds to me like you've got some more studying to do before we ever have another conversation on the subject. Again, good luck on your quest.

[crunchy_pickle (5)]

Actually I'm certain that 1 + 1 = 0, but thats a completely different subject.  Lol, your whole post is any oxymoron.  Belief does imply a mental acceptance and a conviction, but thats where the agreement stops.  Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean its true.  I've worked with mental patients who confidently believe that the people on TV are actually talking to them, directly.  I think that every mental health professional in the world would agree that although they are confidently believing this, it certainly is not the truth.  And I hate to get you to question your core values and dogma, but it sounds to me like you've got some more studying to do before we ever have another conversation on the subject.  Again, good luck on your quest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I wouldn't say I have more studying to do, but I would say that we disagree regarding the English language. Thats fine by me personally. Adversity promotes thought, and without it the world would be a pretty boring place.

You did forget to mention that those mental patients are certain that the television is talking to them. I mean they sound pretty convinced to me based on your statement. Most people were certain that the earth was flat at one time. This was completely logical based on their premise. This does not mean it was true. Just because you are certain of something does not make it true to anyone but you even if others agree. Nothing could ever make me question my core values or dogma. Now would be the time considering my Father's failing health, and many other issues arising in my life. I would sooner doubt the existence of this world than I would the existence of God though. That is more logical to me.

[torn asunder]

I've seen that before.  The only problem with that, is it throws in laws of the Old Covenant, that are of course no longer applicable.  The Bible is a good reference for Truth, but really unnecessary if you have Truth.  Thats not to say, that I don't believe in it, but in all honesty I think the only thing a blind man would ever truly need are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelations, unless he's really lost.  The Old Testament is valueable for historical reference, but really has nothing to do with anything anymore, unless you're Jewish (at least where faith is concerened).   Everything between the gospels and Revelations can serve as a good reference as to how one should live their life, but most of it is common sense.  In the end the Spirit means a lot more though where instruction is concerned.

Law in itself is not the Word of God.  Nor is law even essential in the New Covenant.  Yet, this is just another reason I walked away from the Catholic Church.  They make hypocrites of themselves.  Of course the Jews are no better.  They reject the Messiah, but do not hold true to the law.  I can't remember the last time one of my Jewish friends was murdered for stricking his Father for example.

but my point was - the word of god is the word of god... what makes you (general, not specific) smarter than "god" to be able to pick & choose which section of "god's word" is/isn't applicable? might as well say "ok, i like this - don't like this... like this - hate this!"...

"the bible is a good reference for truth, but really unnecessary when you have truth"... ummm, i don't get it - if the bible wasn't necessary, where else would you find the truth that can be found in the bible, since it's the truth!? :erm

"Catholics are hipocrites, jews are no better"!?! you think maybe they would put you in the same category? remember this - according to someone else's belief, everyone on this planet is going to someone else's hell... now, does that make any sense!?

i'm sorry if this sounds derogatory, and i apologize if it does - don't mean for it to, i just don't understand... :whistling