What is "goth" ?

[Simon Bar Sinister]

What is goth?

not me.

[Scary Guy]

The "goth" I used to know no longer exists.. It actually died when allot of people on this board were either pre-teen or still pissing their beds...

The "goth" I see now is a bunch of whiny little bitches with shitty attitudes.. People that must define themselves as something that used to be cool, so they can avoid the truth.. As the truth is they are just a bunch of reject nerds who could never have 'a place' in this world unless they labeled themselves.

Well actually, the original 'goths' were pretty nerdy, but they just happened to get a sense of style

Now, now.. before you go get yer knickers in a knot... I would never refer to anyone on this board with Me definition.. Really... I swear

So where exactly were you when we sacked rome?

[Oh_My_Goth]

So where exactly were you when we sacked rome?

You have proved a point for Me... Thank-you

Edited March 2, 2009 by Oh_My_Goth

[DJ Nocker]

No offence to the Fetish people that have already posted in this thread, but being in a fetish troupe myself I think I can get away with this

BEING INTO FETISH TYPE STUFF IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS GOTH!

It angers me so much when people say that, and I am in Draconian Productions! You can very well be in both the goth and the fetish scene but they are WAY WAY different.The problem is that in detroit, the goth and fetish scenes are so small that they are clumped together into 1 scene. The majority of people in fetish are not goth in any sense and in fact are the exact opposite. Some wealthy buisness owner that wears ambercrombie and listens to top 40 music that likes to be shat on is now a fetish goth? thats incorrect. Again, its possible to be in both the scenes, especially in the Detroit area... Being into Fetish means you are kinky, not goth.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Sluagh686

[Rev.Reverence]

No offence to the Fetish people that have already posted in this thread, but being in a fetish troupe myself I think I can get away with this

BEING INTO FETISH TYPE STUFF IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS GOTH!

It angers me so much when people say that, and I am in Draconian Productions! You can very well be in both the goth and the fetish scene but they are WAY WAY different.The problem is that in detroit, the goth and fetish scenes are so small that they are clumped together into 1 scene. The majority of people in fetish are not goth in any sense and in fact are the exact opposite. Some wealthy buisness owner that wears ambercrombie and listens to top 40 music that likes to be shat on is now a fetish goth? thats incorrect. Again, its possible to be in both the scenes, especially in the Detroit area... Being into Fetish means you are kinky, not goth.

Rev.Reverence approves of this post...

....not that my say has much sway anywhere...

....except that I do kinda' fit into both scenes....or neither...depending on which snob you ask

[Oh_My_Goth]

Rev.Reverence approves of this post...

....not that my say has much sway anywhere...

....except that I do kinda' fit into both scenes....or neither...depending on which snob you ask

Me too...

[Guest greyhalo]

No offence to the Fetish people that have already posted in this thread, but being in a fetish troupe myself I think I can get away with this

BEING INTO FETISH TYPE STUFF IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS GOTH!

It angers me so much when people say that, and I am in Draconian Productions! You can very well be in both the goth and the fetish scene but they are WAY WAY different.The problem is that in detroit, the goth and fetish scenes are so small that they are clumped together into 1 scene. The majority of people in fetish are not goth in any sense and in fact are the exact opposite. Some wealthy buisness owner that wears ambercrombie and listens to top 40 music that likes to be shat on is now a fetish goth? thats incorrect. Again, its possible to be in both the scenes, especially in the Detroit area... Being into Fetish means you are kinky, not goth.

Joey Deadcat and I had a similar discussion at Deadline a couple of weeks ago. I don't think that this is an issue exclusive to the Detroit scenes. I saw the same thing in New Orleans when I lived there. A lot of ebm and industrial music is tied in with the bdsm and fetish communities. However, I agree with you that the two scenes are very different from each other.

By the way, Detroit actually has a pretty large goth scene compared to most cities--with the exception of places like NY, Chicago, and LA.

[DJ Nocker]

Or.. they could be people that "dressed the part" 24/7 in college and while they still had "kid jobs" until they got a job in corporate America, started a career and decided that making a living was more important than goth street cred. *looks guilty*

Of the people I know that I'd call "hardcore goths". I'd say 99.9% of them would be what I'd call 'weekenders'. Who, would be more "full time" if their jobs didn't prohibit it.

But there we get into a discussion about dress code = goth? Which I'd have to disagree with.

Also the Hot Topic question... I'm a bit skewed on this one since, back in the day, (we are talking a decade ago) hot topic was not "looked down on". Plus I personally, never looked down on it. The same way I don't give a shit if you buy you clothes at K-Mart or Louis Vuitton. If a place has what you want, it has what you want, if it doesn't it doesn't.

I also fall into the catagory you have, but im not ashamed of it. I dont have a deathawk and tons of visable tattoos or piercings...but I also have a full time job, dont live with my parents and am not up past my head in debt. To be perfectly honest, I look pretty damn normal. But in the eyes of the scene, depending on who you talk to, im the opposite. If goth is all about how you look...then im in big trouble, and I DJ at a goth night....

[DJ Nocker]

Joey Deadcat and I had a similar discussion at Deadline a couple of weeks ago. I don't think that this is an issue exclusive to the Detroit scenes. I saw the same thing in New Orleans when I lived there. A lot of ebm and industrial music is tied in with the bdsm and fetish communities. However, I agree with you that the two scenes are very different from each other.

By the way, Detroit actually has a pretty large goth scene compared to most cities--with the exception of places like NY, Chicago, and LA.

I can agree with that.

[Guest greyhalo]

Well, here is the rant that I promised. And the fact that this topic is in the music forum adds to what I'm saying.

In another topic, there was a bit of heated discussion on how one club is better than another because the former is all about the music and the latter just has silly little fetish shows. So does that mean the only thing goth is music? I thought it also included fashion, art, literature, film ... a whole culture and mind set.

A while ago, JynxxxedAngel found a site that has a whole bunch of goth stereotypes including Corp Goth, Victorian Goth, Medieval Goth, Steampunk Goth, etc. Well, one I scored highly as was the Fetish Goth. That is what brought me to City Club and DGN. Not the music, but hot chicks in vinyl, floggers, bondage, etc. Yes, I do enjoy music but my tastes aren't even goth though they're related. I like Industrial, EBM, Darkwave, Synthpop ... but honestly, if a club plays nothing but NIN, Ministry, and Ramstein all night I could care less as long as my fetish element is there.

I'm a kinky person that enjoys exploring multiple aspects of BDSM in the bedroom. I have multiple paraphilias (though more as an interest and not so much a psychological condition). One thing I love about DGN is we're an open community and I can discuss my kinks and not have to feel ashamed about them and hide in the closet. But honestly I was very offended by the music snobs who were putting down my culture because it's not as goth as their music. Fuck, I'd rather watch a flogging scene set to Katy Perry than a bunch of people dancing to Bauhaus. Does that mean I'm not goth? Does that mean I'm not as good as the music snobs?

Recently, in another thread, a DJ stated that DJing is so easy pretty much anybody could do it and he'd be willing to teach anyone who asked. Well, as a fetish performer I would like to say that what I do is incredibly difficult and not everyone can do it even with years of training and practice. And hell, I won't even do a flesh pull or suspension because I can't even take the piercing. But does that mean I'm better than the music snobs?

No. We're all just as goth or ungoth as the next. We're just one of the many dozens of sub-genres that exist within the gothic community and I think we need to start showing each other a bit more respect. We are more alike than we are different.

I will confess that I'm a "music snob" and don't really care about the fetish scene very much. I miss the days when the "goth scene" was more about the music. That's how CC was back in the early 90s. I don't even consider a lot of the *graver* music to be goth, but that's just my opinion. I don't think the 20-year-old girls sporting PVC corsets who know nothing about the music being played at CC are very goth either. But, again that's my opinion.

We'll never agree on this issue, Spook.

[DJ Nocker]

I will confess that I'm a "music snob" and don't really care about the fetish scene very much. I miss the days when the "goth scene" was more about the music. That's how CC was back in the early 90s. I don't even consider a lot of the *graver* music to be goth, but that's just my opinion. I don't think the 20-year-old girls sporting PVC corsets who know nothing about the music being played at CC are very goth either. But, again that's my opinion.

We'll never agree on this issue, Spook.

I dont concider it goth either, more industrial or harsh EBM or Noise or synthpop (whatever the song is) I do enjoy some of it, although not so much synthpop. Me and my friends often joke about how they find it hard to catagorize me becuase im in love with goth music, but also love spaz/grind/noisecore stuff. its difficult, some of my fav bands include The Locust, Joy Division, The Blood Brothers, The Cramps, Converge, and The Cure and Skinny Puppy...IM AN ABOMINATION!!!! what do I do, lol

[n0Mad]

I guess I'm on the wrong forums then. It appears I'm not welcome anywhere.

[DJ Nocker]

I guess I'm on the wrong forums then. It appears I'm not welcome anywhere.

I wouldnt say that. I think your pretty cool from what ive read, plus you play white-wolf which means you have to be cool, lol

[Guest greyhalo]

I dont concider it goth either, more industrial or harsh EBM or Noise or synthpop (whatever the song is) I do enjoy some of it, although not so much synthpop. Me and my friends often joke about how they find it hard to catagorize me becuase im in love with goth music, but also love spaz/grind/noisecore stuff. its difficult, some of my fav bands include The Locust, Joy Division, The Blood Brothers, The Cramps, Converge, and The Cure and Skinny Puppy...IM AN ABOMINATION!!!! what do I do, lol

It's OK. I'll admit that I have some Slayer, Judy Collins, and Screamin' Jay Hawkins (among other things) in my music collection.

I do like a lot of ebm and industrial music too, but I don't really consider some of it to be "goth."

[Guest greyhalo]

I guess I'm on the wrong forums then. It appears I'm not welcome anywhere.

Nah, you fit in better than I do.

I was just teasing you anyway. You're cool, even though you think Bauhaus sucks.

[DJ Nocker]

Nah, you fit in better than I do.

I was just teasing you anyway. You're cool, even though you think Bauhaus sucks.

Heh....I like alot of bands more than Bauhaus, but I still like Bauhaus.

[Scales]

I was just going to post Wikipedia's summary of the Gothic subculture, but I decided to wait on SG's reply and I agree with it.

On a personal level, my religious and political views though unrelated, are innately tied-in with my involvement with the Gothic subculture. I'm somewhere between Atheist/General-Agnostic/Warriorship and Libertarian/Market-Anarchist. I uphold peaceful, intellectual defiance over present-day society, for me living unemployed with my parents as crummy as it can be, is simply a means to further deepen my values.

[Rev.Reverence]

It's OK. I'll admit that I have some Slayer, Judy Collins, and Screamin' Jay Hawkins (among other things) in my music collection.

I do like a lot of ebm and industrial music too, but I don't really consider some of it to be "goth."

I remember the vague term "goth-industrial" that used to be used as a blanket for the "dark side of alternative"...I just came out of me cave a couple of years ago to peoples telling me I like ebm, ibm, & or some other shit...I was very confused...as we certainly did not have all these terms even 6 years ago (I hid for a while)...well..not that I heard of...of course...I love goth music, industrial, ebm & ibm (or what ever you call it) & synth-pop (ung..the synth-pop makes me melt happy!) as much as I like the Reggae & the whatever David Bowie plays ...

I am a friek...'nuff said.

[DJ Nocker]

I was just going to post Wikipedia's summary of the Gothic subculture, but I decided to wait on SG's reply and I agree with it.

On a personal level, my religious and political views though unrelated, are innately tied-in with my involvement with the Gothic subculture. I'm somewhere between Atheist/General-Agnostic/Warriorship and Libertarian/Market-Anarchist. I uphold peaceful, intellectual defiance over present-day society, for me living unemployed with my parents as crummy as it can be, is simply a means to further deepen my values.

I wouldnt always trust wikipediea since it can be changed on a whim.

[Guest greyhalo]

I think we should start a new thread where we can all list our "goth accomplishments." Maybe we can call it the Goth Resume Thread. The we can vote on who is the gothiest and have them define what goth really is...

[Scales]

I wouldnt always trust wikipediea since it can be changed on a whim.

I didn't say I trusted it, but I get where your coming from.

[DJ Nocker]

I think we should start a new thread where we can all list our "goth accomplishments." Maybe we can call it the Goth Resume Thread. The we can vote on who is the gothiest and have them define what goth really is...

Thats a great idea! lets see how long it takes before it gets thread jacked! where should we post it, ill do it, lol!

[Riku Namako]

I saw this topic last night, and I was going to comment, but then I realized that I've got way too much to say about this, and on top of that, its in the wrong damn category. So I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now.

[Scary Guy]

Sluagh686 said:

But in the eyes of the scene, depending on who you talk to, im the opposite. If goth is all about how you look...then im in big trouble, and I DJ at a goth night....

Actually you look like a rockabilly I think with that haircut. Not that it's a bad thing but you just remind me of my friend Lyle.

Scales said:

I was just going to post Wikipedia's summary of the Gothic subculture, but I decided to wait on SG's reply and I agree with it.

Thanks, I'm glad I'm better than a wiki emoticons/default_smile.png

Sluagh686 said:

I wouldnt always trust wikipediea since it can be changed on a whim.

https://slate.com/technology/2008/02/digg-wikipedia-and-the-myth-of-web-2-0-democracy.html a great article on it.

However I must say that wiki can be a great source of information if used correctly. A great quote comes to mind though.

“Dictionaries are like watches; the worst is better than none, and the best cannot be expected to go quite true.” — Samuel Johnson

Of course this was probably before the atomic clock, but his point still stands.

greyhalo said:

I think we should start a new thread where we can all list our "goth accomplishments." Maybe we can call it the Goth Resume Thread. The we can vote on who is the gothiest and have them define what goth really is...

I win

(although seriously, the paradox of it is that first you have to define goth before you can decide how goth like someone is. I DIVIDED BY ZERO OH SHI-).

Edited July 26, 2023 by Scary Guy
Updated the link

[Joey Deadcat]

Hell, I'm not a goth and don't look the part, either. However, I still listen to the stuff from my past as well as the current realgoth and DR bands. It's not about music snobbery, either. There are just some of us here who just happen to be aware of and listen to the music.

Seems in this day and age that those who don't identify themselves as such tend to be more about the music; folks who could care less about the music, however, only seem to latch onto the cliches and misconceptions that have been associated with goth.

I could care less about your number of prospective sex partners or how many quizzes/polls you post. What do you think of Blank Dogs' sound? Aren't Darling's Cabinet Of Sundry Horror a lot of fun to listen to? Does Nora Keyes sound like Edith Piaf's twisted offspring? Will you be ordering the Drop Dead Festival DVD?

Curious as to why goth and punk are the easiest scenes to screw with.