What is "goth" ?

[freydis]

So where exactly were you when we sacked rome?

My ancestors?

Likely sacking Rome.

*snort*

Personally, I think it all goes back to the literary sense of the word. Nothing more gothic than Mary Shelley and the Grand Guigniol. It's a sensibility, and one that grows and changes with time.

[StormKnight (1)]

So where exactly were you when we sacked rome?

My ancestors at the time? Surfing, fishing, and tossing the occasional victim into the volcano.

[eleven]

I'm just glad that there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements. If the mallgoths, metalheads,fetishists,and gravers wanna keep using the "g" word, eh, let 'em. There's a whole separate scene/movement that distances itself from all of that.

And I like that there's a slew of current/newer bands that shun the cliches and bs that had been associated with goth.

I just have to say....that this is the most ignorant post I've ever read....which says a lot since I actually bothered to post to say it.....that is all....good job my opinion of you has again dropped lower then it already was....epic fail....Fin!

[candyman]

Curious as to why goth and punk are the easiest scenes to screw with.

That is easy to answere...yet...difficult at the same time.

The difficult part is there because today, if someone is not offended by something they will sit and pick it apart until they find something to be offended by...

But with punk there is...well, I don't want to get into it because it should be another thread, like why we get picked on so much, but as a hint there is a study going in between the Ivy League people and some other dudes to see if people that believe in things like free markets and many other things associated with both "punk" and "goth" are suffering from a mental condition or some other disease...

Then there is the racism thing...not that anyone "punk" or "goth" is racist...but thats what people would like to believe...look what happened to the Skinheads...we were VERY integrated back in the day...

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I saw this topic last night, and I was going to comment, but then I realized that I've got way too much to say about this, and on top of that, its in the wrong damn category. So I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now.

What's wrong with the category it's in?

It is a very bad idea for me to say anything in this thread, because I don't really fit any definition of 'goth' and very few would put me there. Someone who wears pastels and poodle skirts and petticoats and spends every day full of contentment and joy, someone who hates poetry, someone who spent ~22 years hating on 'goth' and anything that could be considered it, someone who spends 40 hours a week in slacks and a blouse behand a desk at a computer or in meetings... I'm like the anti-goth...

Except that something changed in my early 20s. I slowly started to find out little by little what goth really was, or could be, or was to some people. It wasn't Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. I found it through the people, and I found it through the music. I discovered things like Depeche Mode and Bauhaus and Siouxsie. (Yes, I have only known the existence of these bands for far less years than I can count on one hand.) It was the music that made me open my eyes to what goth is and can be.

Plus, didn't it all start around the music? Well, not all, but the major blossoming of the subculture in the late late 70s early 80s grew out of post-punk, didn't it? Fashion and a variety of somewhat related worldviews had a lot to do with it, I'm sure, but it was mostly about the music, no? So I think it's in a fine category.

I say what goth 'can be', because there are so many things that goth can be. It's something different to each one of us, isn't it? I certainly would not claim my interpretation to be any better or more accurate than anyone else's. I will hold my interpretation up as a candle and keep its little flame safe from those who would spit on it with stereotypes of Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. Heck, some of these may even fit some of your interpretations of goth, and that's fine. They just don't fit mine. I don't have to like Manson, you don't have to like Joy Division. I just rage against the stereotype of goth people as social rejects who can't function successfully in normal society, who don't have social skills and can't get a real job. I equally rage against the stereotypes of goth people as drug addicts, alcoholics, sluts, masochists, etc, fill in your stereotype here. In general I just rage against stereotypes.

In that vein, trying to define 'goth' will never work. There are too many of us, with too many differences. Any attempt at definition will lead only to stereotyping. But that doesn't mean we can't have a positive, meaningful discussion about it. But people who are going to take it seriously and personally and take offense to things said should be stopped at the door. If someone says they don't think goth is about the music, it doesn't mean they are attacking you if you think goth is about the music. If someone says they don't think goth is about fetishes, it doesn't mean they are attacking you or calling you somehow 'not goth' if you are into fetishes.

But I do hate stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I never gave anything remotely 'goth' a chance until I was in my early-mid 20s - I only saw the stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I don't want my coworkers or bosses or future potential bosses to know what I do on the weekends. People do judge anyone they consider 'goth' negatively, and it's a damn shame, and I believe it's due to stereotypes that just plain aren't even relevant.

Okay, well, I don't know what else I was planning to say here, so I will shut up for the time being and see what else I think of. I just have one hope. I hope that people don't take this all too seriously and personally, resulting in this thread getting shut down. Threads seem to get shut down here all the time whenever a conversation gets going because someone's feelings got hurt. Let's keep this mature, shall we?

Disclaimer #1: I don't mean to lump liking Manson or having fetishes in with being a social reject or cutting yourself. Some of my referenced stereotypes are inherently negative, and others are completely valud-judgment-free, but I somehow don't think they should immediately follow from the word 'goth'. Some of them may even apply to me... I just see them as completely separate from 'goth'. In the same way that I am a lolita, but I don't think that's the same as goth either. Just because someone wears lolita does not make them goth, and just because someone is goth (or lolita for that matter) does not make them into S&M. There may be some correlation, sure, but not 100% by far.

Disclaimer #2: If I offended anyone by anything I said in this post, I probably didn't mean that part in that way. I'm just not very well-spoken.

[Guest greyhalo]

What's wrong with the category it's in?

It is a very bad idea for me to say anything in this thread, because I don't really fit any definition of 'goth' and very few would put me there. Someone who wears pastels and poodle skirts and petticoats and spends every day full of contentment and joy, someone who hates poetry, someone who spent ~22 years hating on 'goth' and anything that could be considered it, someone who spends 40 hours a week in slacks and a blouse behand a desk at a computer or in meetings... I'm like the anti-goth...

Except that something changed in my early 20s. I slowly started to find out little by little what goth really was, or could be, or was to some people. It wasn't Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. I found it through the people, and I found it through the music. I discovered things like Depeche Mode and Bauhaus and Siouxsie. (Yes, I have only known the existence of these bands for far less years than I can count on one hand.) It was the music that made me open my eyes to what goth is and can be.

Plus, didn't it all start around the music? Well, not all, but the major blossoming of the subculture in the late late 70s early 80s grew out of post-punk, didn't it? Fashion and a variety of somewhat related worldviews had a lot to do with it, I'm sure, but it was mostly about the music, no? So I think it's in a fine category.

I say what goth 'can be', because there are so many things that goth can be. It's something different to each one of us, isn't it? I certainly would not claim my interpretation to be any better or more accurate than anyone else's. I will hold my interpretation up as a candle and keep its little flame safe from those who would spit on it with stereotypes of Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. Heck, some of these may even fit some of your interpretations of goth, and that's fine. They just don't fit mine. I don't have to like Manson, you don't have to like Joy Division. I just rage against the stereotype of goth people as social rejects who can't function successfully in normal society, who don't have social skills and can't get a real job. I equally rage against the stereotypes of goth people as drug addicts, alcoholics, sluts, masochists, etc, fill in your stereotype here. In general I just rage against stereotypes.

In that vein, trying to define 'goth' will never work. There are too many of us, with too many differences. Any attempt at definition will lead only to stereotyping. But that doesn't mean we can't have a positive, meaningful discussion about it. But people who are going to take it seriously and personally and take offense to things said should be stopped at the door. If someone says they don't think goth is about the music, it doesn't mean they are attacking you if you think goth is about the music. If someone says they don't think goth is about fetishes, it doesn't mean they are attacking you or calling you somehow 'not goth' if you are into fetishes.

But I do hate stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I never gave anything remotely 'goth' a chance until I was in my early-mid 20s - I only saw the stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I don't want my coworkers or bosses or future potential bosses to know what I do on the weekends. People do judge anyone they consider 'goth' negatively, and it's a damn shame, and I believe it's due to stereotypes that just plain aren't even relevant.

Okay, well, I don't know what else I was planning to say here, so I will shut up for the time being and see what else I think of. I just have one hope. I hope that people don't take this all too seriously and personally, resulting in this thread getting shut down. Threads seem to get shut down here all the time whenever a conversation gets going because someone's feelings got hurt. Let's keep this mature, shall we?

Disclaimer #1: I don't mean to lump liking Manson or having fetishes in with being a social reject or cutting yourself. Some of my referenced stereotypes are inherently negative, and others are completely valud-judgment-free, but I somehow don't think they should immediately follow from the word 'goth'. Some of them may even apply to me... I just see them as completely separate from 'goth'. In the same way that I am a lolita, but I don't think that's the same as goth either. Just because someone wears lolita does not make them goth, and just because someone is goth (or lolita for that matter) does not make them into S&M. There may be some correlation, sure, but not 100% by far.

Disclaimer #2: If I offended anyone by anything I said in this post, I probably didn't mean that part in that way. I'm just not very well-spoken.

You made some very good and valid points. Gothic rock did evolve from the post-punk era in the UK. The term deathrock was more often used in the US. Sure, it's not just about the music, but the music WAS and still IS an important aspect of the subculture.

[Ivy_Cat]

I'm just glad that there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements. If the mallgoths, metalheads,fetishists,and gravers wanna keep using the "g" word, eh, let 'em. There's a whole separate scene/movement that distances itself from all of that.

And I like that there's a slew of current/newer bands that shun the cliches and bs that had been associated with goth.

Do you HAVE TO insult people to get your point across!! what makes your movement better than any other movement??

Why can you believe in whatever makes you happy and let other people be??

I just don't get it!! IT IS GREAT you believe in something that makes YOU happy!! but insulting other groups in the process is childish, and inmature...

THE ACTUAL point of the goth subculture was (at least back in my day) that you could be YOU without being judge or insulted for it!! I GUESS that no longer is the case... interesting

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I'm just glad that there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements. If the mallgoths, metalheads,fetishists,and gravers wanna keep using the "g" word, eh, let 'em. There's a whole separate scene/movement that distances itself from all of that.

And I like that there's a slew of current/newer bands that shun the cliches and bs that had been associated with goth.

I just have to say....that this is the most ignorant post I've ever read....which says a lot since I actually bothered to post to say it.....that is all....good job my opinion of you has again dropped lower then it already was....epic fail....Fin!

Do you HAVE TO insult people to get your point across!! what makes your movement better than any other movement??

Why can you believe in whatever makes you happy and let other people be??

I just don't get it!! IT IS GREAT you believe in something that makes YOU happy!! but insulting other groups in the process is childish, and inmature...

THE ACTUAL point of the goth subculture was (at least back in my day) that you could be YOU without being judge or insulted for it!! I GUESS that no longer is the case... interesting

I just want to say that *technically*, he never actually insulted anyone or said that his goth was better than anyone else's goth. Of course he thinks his goth is better, for him, in his own mind - that's why it's his goth. That's why he likes that part of it. But just stating that "there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements." is not an insult - it's a fact. I mean, come on...isn't it? There are some goths who aren't fetish or cyber or vampire or Ren Faire or depressed or poetic. Right? Therefore he's right - there is a scene that is not about those elements. How is this an insult? Saying there are people who distance themselves from the other subsets of goth doesn't insult those other subsets. You can take it as such if you want to, I suppose, but I don't think it's inherently there... :/ He didn't say 'zomg all you people who ARE into those elements, you all SUCK and you aren't goth and you never will be and you aren't fit to be around and you aren't fit to live!1!!' I think a lot of us need to take a deep breath and realize not everyone's out to get us...

[DJ Nocker]

Not to take sides as this obviously is getting heated but....in all honesty joey deadcat was right in his post, he wasnt saying anything bad about gravers/fetishists ect. just that they arent goth. no insults are there...at least I dont think so.

EDIT: the post rght above me beat me to it darn you!!!!

Edited March 3, 2009 by Sluagh686

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Not to take sides as this obviously is getting heated but....in all honesty joey deadcat was right in his post, he wasnt saying anything bad about gravers/fetishists ect. just that they arent goth. no insults are there...at least I dont think so.

EDIT: the post rght above meet me to it darn you!!!!

He didn't even say they weren't goth, did he? Technically.

Not that I really think he'd be doing anything wrong to say they weren't, if he had, which he didn't. (And that's not even because I happen to agree.) I think having a discussion about what you do consider to be goth means you have to also talk about what you don't consider to be goth. It doesn't mean you look down upon people in those groups anyway. Besides, why should anyone care whether anyone else considers them to be a part of a group that they define in different ways anyway? XD

[DJ Nocker]

He didn't even say they weren't goth, did he? Technically.

Not that I really think he'd be doing anything wrong to say they weren't, if he had, which he didn't. (And that's not even because I happen to agree.) I think having a discussion about what you do consider to be goth means you have to also talk about what you don't consider to be goth. It doesn't mean you look down upon people in those groups anyway. Besides, why should anyone care whether anyone else considers them to be a part of a group that they define in different ways anyway? XD

Oh well...im sure someone will make a post explaining how what he said was totally insulting and then we will have something else to talk about...

[DJ Nocker]

Do you HAVE TO insult people to get your point across!! what makes your movement better than any other movement??

Why can you believe in whatever makes you happy and let other people be??

I just don't get it!! IT IS GREAT you believe in something that makes YOU happy!! but insulting other groups in the process is childish, and inmature...

THE ACTUAL point of the goth subculture was (at least back in my day) that you could be YOU without being judge or insulted for it!! I GUESS that no longer is the case... interesting

Goth kids have always been judged and insulted, by other clicks as wells as by eachother, at lease in my history of te scene. Even as far back as high school only certain "goth" or "punk" kids would associate with one another and shun the others. I actually think its part of the territory lol.

[Guest greyhalo]

This thread is getting absurd. Everyone is obviously going to have their own opinion, and there's no reason not to express it on a "goth" board. People are just starting to take things too personally. There is a lot of support on this board for the music scene AND the fetish scene. Some people enjoy both components, others don't. Who f*cking cares!?!

[DJ Nocker]

This thread is getting absurd. Everyone is obviously going to have their own opinion, and there's no reason not to express it on a "goth" board. People are just starting to take things too personally. There is a lot of support on this board for the music scene AND the fetish scene. Some people enjoy both components, others don't. Who f*cking cares!?!

Well hopefully nobody and everyone is taking it in a good fun argument....if not then oh well...im not getting upset, ITS A FORUM lol.... who gives a care. same reason I debate about movies on IMDB. its fun, regardless how absurd something someone says is.

[Rev.Reverence]

This thread is getting absurd. Everyone is obviously going to have their own opinion, and there's no reason not to express it on a "goth" board. People are just starting to take things too personally. There is a lot of support on this board for the music scene AND the fetish scene. Some people enjoy both components, others don't. Who f*cking cares!?!

My question is why do you goto the trouble of putting an asterisk in fucking...I find that offensive.

Totally rude to us "fucking frieks"!

[Guest greyhalo]

Well hopefully nobody and everyone is taking it in a good fun argument....if not then oh well...im not getting upset, ITS A FORUM lol.... who gives a care. same reason I debate about movies on IMDB. its fun, regardless how absurd something someone says is.

I just hate seeing people attacking each other and getting bent out of shape though. It is silly. I stated my opinion, and people can laugh or snub their noses at me. Whatever.

[Guest greyhalo]

My question is why do you goto the trouble of putting an asterisk in fucking...I find that offensive.

Totally rude to us "fucking frieks"!

Fuck you, Rev.

[Rev.Reverence]

Fuck you, Rev.

..well fuck you to darlin'

[Guest greyhalo]

..well fuck you to darlin'

Why, thank you, sir.

Also, fuck goths, for that matter.

[Rev.Reverence]

Why, thank you, sir.

Also, fuck goths, for that matter.

YEAH...fuck them...fuck them HARD from behind...till they're sore! then they'll have something to bitch about...they LOVE bitching...they're not happy unless there is something to bitch about!

[Guest greyhalo]

YEAH...fuck them...fuck them HARD from behind...till they're sore! then they'll have something to bitch about...they LOVE bitching...they're not happy unless there is something to bitch about!

I can relate. I like complaining and am damn good at it too. There is a certain art to it.

[Ivy_Cat]

Goth kids have always been judged and insulted, by other clicks as wells as by eachother, at lease in my history of te scene. Even as far back as high school only certain "goth" or "punk" kids would associate with one another and shun the others. I actually think its part of the territory lol.

yes we were... but withing the group we respected each other a great deal.. that is what WE were all about!! We helped each other, never insulted each other and even thought we were rejected by many, we tried to never do the same in return. Within us there were many different kinds.. the ones that enjoyed the music, the ones that enjoyed the arts, the ones that enjoyed the style..some of us wore the dark clothing ... some did not.. it was more a lifestyle than a style in itself. If that makes any sence. (sorry english is not my first language). But i guess that what I am trying to say is that no matter what aspect of the goth culture we were involved in we helped and respected each other. That is not so common anymore, within the culture there are soooo many clicks, and soooo many groups that attack each other I feel like "goth" is no longer the culture i grew up with.. is just one more click. I do consider myself goth, and always will be.. but unfortunately i don't think the terms hold up to the ideals it did in the past. Maybe I am way to old and idealistic.. but i do miss the "freedom" that being goth brought to my life at one point!

oh.. and maybe i found the other post insulting because to me the word "rejection" has always been and insult.. i might be wrong.. who knows... but growing up in a country were i could not even understand the language for the first 3 years I might have become a little ubber sensitive about rejection and acceptace.. (and acceptance is what i had always found wtihing the goth culture) until recently

if he did nto mean it as an insult I am sorry...

Edited March 3, 2009 by Ivy_Cat

[Rev.Reverence]

I can relate. I like complaining and am damn good at it too. There is a certain art to it.

..I once complained that "things are too right...it's spooky..."...

[Guest greyhalo]

yes we were... but withing the group we respected each other a great deal.. that is what WE were all about!! We helped each other, never insulted each other and even thought we were rejected by many, we tried to never do the same in return. Within us there were many different kinds.. the ones that enjoyed the music, the ones that enjoyed the arts, the ones that enjoyed the style..some of us wore the dark clothing ... some did not.. it was more a lifestyle than a style in itself. If that makes any sence. (sorry english is not my first language). But i guess that what I am trying to say is that no matter what aspect of the goth culture we were involved in we helped and respected each other. That is not so common anymore, within the culture there are soooo many clicks, and soooo many groups that attack each other I feel like "goth" is no longer the culture i grew up with.. is just one more click. I do consider myself goth, and always will be.. but unfortunately i don't think the terms hold up to the ideals it did in the past. Maybe I am way to old and idealistic.. but i do miss the "freedom" that being goth brought to my life at one point!

oh.. and maybe i found the other post insulting because to me the word "rejection" has always been and insult.. i might be wrong.. who knows... but growing up in a country were i could not even understand the language for the first 3 years I might have become a little ubber sensitive about rejection and acceptace.. (and acceptance is what i had always found wtihing the goth culture) until recently

if he did nto mean it as an insult I am sorry...

I can see things from your point of view. Though I didn't agree with everything in Spook's post, I also have a lot of respect for him. Like I said, there's a lot of support for different components of the goth scene on this board. But, people will have varying opinions, and disagreements will arise. Some people are going to make more judgments than others. Now, let's all laugh a little because goths can be pretty darn funny too!

[Rev.Reverence]

I can see things from your point of view. Though I didn't agree with everything in Spook's post, I also have a lot of respect for him. Like I said, there's a lot of support for different components of the goth scene on this board. But, people will have varying opinions, and disagreements will arise. Some people are going to make more judgments than others. Now, let's all laugh a little because goths can be pretty darn funny too!

...it can't rain all the time....