What is "goth" ?

[DJ Nocker]

I can see things from your point of view. Though I didn't agree with everything in Spook's post, I also have a lot of respect for him. Like I said, there's a lot of support for different components of the goth scene on this board. But, people will have varying opinions, and disagreements will arise. Some people are going to make more judgments than others. Now, let's all laugh a little because goths can be pretty darn funny too!

Your taste in music SUCKS! =P =P .....yea never mind...

[Necromanta]

I don't have time to start on my own opinion on this thread so.. I'll use a reference a friend of mine used to relate to the term "goth". A standard FAQ on the terms and origins of the "goth" scene.What is Goth? (Gothic FAQ)

What is Gothic?

Its a genre of music a kind of dark Postpunk that developed in the late 70s and early 80s.

Its also a subculture, a group of people united by their love for this music called Goths.

What is Gothic music?

As allready mentioned its a kind of dark Postpunk. Which means it developed from Punk. And indeed many Goth bands do still resemble Punk a lot in sound.

Bauhaus, The Sisters Of Mercy, Christian Death, The Cure, Siouxsie And The Banshees, Alien Sex Fiend,... are some of the prominent Goth classics. But Goth didn't die after the 80s, it just went underground. There are plenty of popular newer Goth bands to like Cinema Strange, Bloody Dead And Sexy, Elusive, Frank The Baptist, All Gone Dead, Eat Your Make-Up,... There is a much longer list of Goth bands below.

Are there different kinds of Goth music?

Yes, there are a handfull of Goth subgenres in existence. Goth comes in two big categories, bands with a first generation sound and bands with a second generation sound.

The first generation is the first Goth music and later bands with the same sound. This is all still fairly close to Punk. Under it fall three Goth subgenres; Deathrock, Batcave and 80s Popgoth.

Deathrock was the first generation of Goth that developed in America. Of all the subgenres its closest to Goth. Famous Deathrock bands are Christian Death, Kommunity FK and 45 Grave.

Batcave was the first generation of Goth that developed in Europe. It usually had a more gloomy and experimental sound to it, like Alien Sex Fiend, Specimen and Virgin Prunes.

80s Popgoth isn't really a subgenre. But some early Goth bands defied classification into a subgenre, like The Cure and Siouxsie And The Banshees.

The second generation of Goth broke through in the mid 80s. A new kind of Goth had evolved away from the Punk roots. It still sounded Goth but different. Two subgenres used to fall under it; Gothic Rock and Dark Wave.

Gothic Rock is Goth with some Hard Rock influences, usually with deep male vocals. The most famous bands are The Sisters Of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim and The Mission.

Dark Wave is Goth with some ethereal and electronic influences added. It doesn't exist anymore as a Goth subgenre. Dark Wave has for the most part moved away from its Goth roots and is now a seperate genre. Only a minority stay true to the Goth sound today. Examples of "Gothic Dark Wave" are Xymox, Frozen Autumn and Sopor Aeternus.

Isn't Metal and Rock like Nightwish, Cradle Of Filth, Evanescence, Marilyn Manson, Within Temptation,... Goth?

No, I'm afraid not. Completly different kinds of music. Even Gothic Metal is in fact not Goth, its just a name. This music gets confused a lot cause its also very dark themed. And because a lot of its fans (usually Metalheads) wear black clothing to. Which makes them similar in look to Goths for the casual observer.

Isn't electronic music like Combichrist, VNV Nation, Grendel, Covenant, Front 242,... Goth?

Again no, completly different kind of music. This music or its fans (Cybers usually) don't really resemble Goth anyway. With the exception of a minority of Cybers that sometimes dresses a bit Goth. This music gets confused with Goth cause it gets played side by side with Goth on a number of clubnights and festivals. Allthough this is getting more and more rare.

What other musical genres and prominent bands are wrongly confused with Goth?

Genres:

• Gothic Metal

• Black Metal

• Death Metal

• Nu-Metal

• Industrial

• EBM

• Synthpop

• Futurepop

• “Emo”

• Pagan/Folk Metal

• Symphonic Metal

• Symphonic Power Metal

• Dark Ambient

• Visual Kei

Bands: HIM, A Perfect Circle, Dimmu Borgir, AFI, Combichrist, Lacuna Coil, Moonspell, Nightwish, Wumpscut, Evanescence, Marilyn Manson, Cradle of Filth, Slipknot, Korn, Emilie Autumn, Andrew W.K., Children of Bodom, Good Charlotte, Hatebreed, Jack Off Jill, In Flames, Kittie, KoRn, Linkin Park, Ministry, Morbid Angel, Mudvayne, Murderdolls, My Chemical Romance, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Rammstein, Rasputina, Razed In Black, Skinny Puppy, Tool, VNV Nation, Wednesday 13, Deathstars,...

What is a Goth?

A Goth is someone that loves Gothic music. He/she will probably also like other types of music. But he/she will certainly love Goth music. Many Goths express their love for this genre by dressing a certain way.

Batcave/Deathrock is associated with first generation Goth. And just like the music its stay close to the Punk roots:

But wasn't Goth a way or life or even a religion?

I'm afraid not, except for a preference for Goth music every Goth is different. They are all individuals that live in their own unique way. And Goth certainly isn't a religion. Their are no beliefs or ideals attached to the subculture. Many Goths are in fact part of a religion allready which has nothing to do with being a Goth.

Why didn't I know this yet?

You have been lied to by the media who is mostly ignorant about the subject. In the 80s everyone knew perfectly well what Goth was, even the media. Cause the music and subculture was as good as mainstream for a period. In the 90s when Goth went back underground the trouble started. The media started to confuse Goth with other dark themed music. Or even with anything dark like Vampirism, Satanism and schoolshootings. Because of that most people today stay completly ignorant of what Goth is. Fortunately you stumbled across one of the few reliable sources here.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Necromanta

[Guest greyhalo]

Your taste in music SUCKS! =P =P .....yea never mind...

Why do you have to insult me? j/k

Trust me, I have some stuff in my music collection that I should probably be flogged for purchasing. I still don't like I.C.P. though...

[Joey Deadcat]

Thanks, Osaka - your post explained it the best.

[Joey Deadcat]

Why do you have to insult me? j/k

Trust me, I have some stuff in my music collection that I should probably be flogged for purchasing. I still don't like I.C.P. though...

C'mon now... Hell, me, I'm still trying to find barbershop quartet and ragtime recordings from the early part of the 20th Century.

[candyman]

C'mon now... Hell, me, I'm still trying to find barbershop quartet and ragtime recordings from the early part of the 20th Century.

I have some recordings! Some are in horrible shape but...

[Rev.Reverence]

I don't have time to start on my own opinion on this thread so.. I'll use a reference a friend of mine used to relate to the term "goth". A standard FAQ on the terms and origins of the "goth" scene.What is Goth? (Gothic FAQ)

What is Gothic?

Its a genre of music a kind of dark Postpunk that developed in the late 70s and early 80s.

Its also a subculture, a group of people united by their love for this music called Goths.

What is Gothic music?

As allready mentioned its a kind of dark Postpunk. Which means it developed from Punk. And indeed many Goth bands do still resemble Punk a lot in sound.

Bauhaus, The Sisters Of Mercy, Christian Death, The Cure, Siouxsie And The Banshees, Alien Sex Fiend,... are some of the prominent Goth classics. But Goth didn't die after the 80s, it just went underground. There are plenty of popular newer Goth bands to like Cinema Strange, Bloody Dead And Sexy, Elusive, Frank The Baptist, All Gone Dead, Eat Your Make-Up,... There is a much longer list of Goth bands below.

Are there different kinds of Goth music?

Yes, there are a handfull of Goth subgenres in existence. Goth comes in two big categories, bands with a first generation sound and bands with a second generation sound.

The first generation is the first Goth music and later bands with the same sound. This is all still fairly close to Punk. Under it fall three Goth subgenres; Deathrock, Batcave and 80s Popgoth.

Deathrock was the first generation of Goth that developed in America. Of all the subgenres its closest to Goth. Famous Deathrock bands are Christian Death, Kommunity FK and 45 Grave.

Batcave was the first generation of Goth that developed in Europe. It usually had a more gloomy and experimental sound to it, like Alien Sex Fiend, Specimen and Virgin Prunes.

80s Popgoth isn't really a subgenre. But some early Goth bands defied classification into a subgenre, like The Cure and Siouxsie And The Banshees.

The second generation of Goth broke through in the mid 80s. A new kind of Goth had evolved away from the Punk roots. It still sounded Goth but different. Two subgenres used to fall under it; Gothic Rock and Dark Wave.

Gothic Rock is Goth with some Hard Rock influences, usually with deep male vocals. The most famous bands are The Sisters Of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim and The Mission.

Dark Wave is Goth with some ethereal and electronic influences added. It doesn't exist anymore as a Goth subgenre. Dark Wave has for the most part moved away from its Goth roots and is now a seperate genre. Only a minority stay true to the Goth sound today. Examples of "Gothic Dark Wave" are Xymox, Frozen Autumn and Sopor Aeternus.

Isn't Metal and Rock like Nightwish, Cradle Of Filth, Evanescence, Marilyn Manson, Within Temptation,... Goth?

No, I'm afraid not. Completly different kinds of music. Even Gothic Metal is in fact not Goth, its just a name. This music gets confused a lot cause its also very dark themed. And because a lot of its fans (usually Metalheads) wear black clothing to. Which makes them similar in look to Goths for the casual observer.

Isn't electronic music like Combichrist, VNV Nation, Grendel, Covenant, Front 242,... Goth?

Again no, completly different kind of music. This music or its fans (Cybers usually) don't really resemble Goth anyway. With the exception of a minority of Cybers that sometimes dresses a bit Goth. This music gets confused with Goth cause it gets played side by side with Goth on a number of clubnights and festivals. Allthough this is getting more and more rare.

What other musical genres and prominent bands are wrongly confused with Goth?

Genres:

• Gothic Metal

• Black Metal

• Death Metal

• Nu-Metal

• Industrial

• EBM

• Synthpop

• Futurepop

• “Emo”

• Pagan/Folk Metal

• Symphonic Metal

• Symphonic Power Metal

• Dark Ambient

• Visual Kei

Bands: HIM, A Perfect Circle, Dimmu Borgir, AFI, Combichrist, Lacuna Coil, Moonspell, Nightwish, Wumpscut, Evanescence, Marilyn Manson, Cradle of Filth, Slipknot, Korn, Emilie Autumn, Andrew W.K., Children of Bodom, Good Charlotte, Hatebreed, Jack Off Jill, In Flames, Kittie, KoRn, Linkin Park, Ministry, Morbid Angel, Mudvayne, Murderdolls, My Chemical Romance, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Rammstein, Rasputina, Razed In Black, Skinny Puppy, Tool, VNV Nation, Wednesday 13, Deathstars,...

What is a Goth?

A Goth is someone that loves Gothic music. He/she will probably also like other types of music. But he/she will certainly love Goth music. Many Goths express their love for this genre by dressing a certain way.

Batcave/Deathrock is associated with first generation Goth. And just like the music its stay close to the Punk roots:

But wasn't Goth a way or life or even a religion?

I'm afraid not, except for a preference for Goth music every Goth is different. They are all individuals that live in their own unique way. And Goth certainly isn't a religion. Their are no beliefs or ideals attached to the subculture. Many Goths are in fact part of a religion allready which has nothing to do with being a Goth.

Why didn't I know this yet?

You have been lied to by the media who is mostly ignorant about the subject. In the 80s everyone knew perfectly well what Goth was, even the media. Cause the music and subculture was as good as mainstream for a period. In the 90s when Goth went back underground the trouble started. The media started to confuse Goth with other dark themed music. Or even with anything dark like Vampirism, Satanism and schoolshootings. Because of that most people today stay completly ignorant of what Goth is. Fortunately you stumbled across one of the few reliable sources here.

NICE!

[Brenda Starrr]

I just want to say that *technically*, he never actually insulted anyone or said that his goth was better than anyone else's goth. Of course he thinks his goth is better, for him, in his own mind - that's why it's his goth. That's why he likes that part of it. But just stating that "there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements." is not an insult - it's a fact. I mean, come on...isn't it? There are some goths who aren't fetish or cyber or vampire or Ren Faire or depressed or poetic. Right? Therefore he's right - there is a scene that is not about those elements. How is this an insult? Saying there are people who distance themselves from the other subsets of goth doesn't insult those other subsets. You can take it as such if you want to, I suppose, but I don't think it's inherently there... :/ He didn't say 'zomg all you people who ARE into those elements, you all SUCK and you aren't goth and you never will be and you aren't fit to be around and you aren't fit to live!1!!' I think a lot of us need to take a deep breath and realize not everyone's out to get us...

Not to take sides as this obviously is getting heated but....in all honesty joey deadcat was right in his post, he wasnt saying anything bad about gravers/fetishists ect. just that they arent goth. no insults are there...at least I dont think so.

EDIT: the post rght above me beat me to it darn you!!!!

This thread is getting absurd. Everyone is obviously going to have their own opinion, and there's no reason not to express it on a "goth" board. People are just starting to take things too personally. There is a lot of support on this board for the music scene AND the fetish scene. Some people enjoy both components, others don't. Who f*cking cares!?!

Agreed, on ALL points above.

[phee]

This thread is GOTH

[eleven]

.....See now you all dont see this Post as i do, Its not to drag out this confrontation or anything but the word choice chosen, decided to tell me, in a personal way...that i was not allowed to call my self got or anything else........Not cool....Cyber goth......goth goth goth goth goth.....Goth is a state of mind.....not clothes..... not music....but a point when you are supposed to be accepting of everyone. imo....

The reason i like going to city club is because when i started going i felt welcome....I dont fit in at the top 40 clubs...yes i can shake my ass like no other and pop my booty but there is a sense of respect that we in this scene give each other....

My first bad experience honestly was on this board....the entire glow stick kids not being welcome anywhere.....honestly....that conversation that has come up more then once and has ruined my opinion on a few people....Everyone needs a place to go so why hate?

After this i got disrespected in the highest manner imo....

Whilst glow sticking at cc..+

..and as you all know i am generally very careful not to hit anyone...This douchbag greaser dude decided that i was not worthy of the dance space that i so rightfully took my time to earn. I called him out on it and he got in my face. Skyfire was the only reason that guy did not take a swing at me telling me that i didnt deserve the space i took up and me willing to stand up for myself...and i really wanna ask does any one person deserve the space more than another....just because one is goth dancing and i am working on a literal form of art? Since that altercation He managed to bitch and whine enough that they banned one of the things i enjoyed doing the most....and honestly....ill never forgive him for that....Why is it one has to be better than another???

Hate is what corrupts and so have fun hatin.....do that shit up....i know some dislike me and hate on me...because i find bright neon colors fascinating...and i dont just shoegaze....or i just dont classic goth dance....sorry i find stepping side to side rather uneventful and boring...ill partyboy to anything damn it :D

Psychobilly, and punk greaser....not goth......they have their own category just fyi...

oh and i dont think this topic belongs in here either.....

how is Gothic metal if i may ask not Gothic???? i mean....it kinda says it is in the name even...?

Edited March 4, 2009 by eleven

[wilhelm k]

from what i have been told there are some people that have been offended by posts made by current and former residents of Dead-Line.

1st and foremost, the works has nothing against fetish,goth,cyber,or any other dark sub-culture.

this is obvious being that we do a night every week geared towards the goth community & that oblivion is holding an event at the works this saturday (plug plug)

Dead-Line is my night, any comments made by current or former residents DO NOT represent the views of Dead-Line.

Any one that has been offended i offer my apologies and i hope that you don't hold anything against the works or dead-line.

[SkYFiRe]

I'm just glad that there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements. If the mallgoths, metalheads,fetishists,and gravers wanna keep using the "g" word, eh, let 'em. There's a whole separate scene/movement that distances itself from all of that.

Honestly i don't really see the necessity in calling out any part of the subculture by name, do you really have to take it there? I could care less what part of the "goth culture" you like, nor would i call you out publicly as being unworthy of a title that you may very well feel you deserve. Myself, I claim many subcultures from raver, cyber, metalhead all the way to juggalo and beyond. Does that make me less "goth" then you? If so plz allow me to step aside and roll out the black carpet for you since your obviously so above me that you can decide which factions of an entire subculture get the privilege to claim the name. We are all in this together so take it or leave it. Me and my glowsticks and electronically enhanced music are not going any where any time soon!

[Necromanta]

I'm not hating on you. I like you Eleven. Otherwise I wouldn't give you huggles at necto. :D

Gothic metal.. has nothing to do with the dark post-punk roots that bloomed goth rock. It's a darker type of metal.. but doesn't share common traits with bands such as Bauhaus or Siouxsie & the Banshees.

[Scary Guy]

This topic doesn't belong in here I agree.

The problem with hate is it's a human condition. Hating is actually very goth since "emo's hate themselves, goths hate everyone else" lol j/k. But seriously loving your own scene is great but it doesn't mean you have to hate another just to prove your love for yours.

But no, I've equated City Club with a middle school for YEARS! There is so much negativity in the scene (even from myself because I dish out what I'm given). Bitter little rivalries and bickering between cliques, both overtly and covertly.

This is why I go with my definition as it answers everything and eliminates the need for any debate on what is or is not goth.

I'm a little sick and light headed, so I hope I'm making sense. I'm going to go lay down and may post more later when the throbbing in my brain dies down a bit.

[Guest greyhalo]

Some of these posts are getting kind of emo...

[Fin]

Goths are punks who like smoother moves than slam-dance, wear more makeup, & have some affinity for at least one of the Universal monsters.

Case closed.

[Guest greyhalo]

I'm not hating on you. I like you Eleven. Otherwise I wouldn't give you huggles at necto. :D

Gothic metal.. has nothing to do with the dark post-punk roots that bloomed goth rock. It's a darker type of metal.. but doesn't share common traits with bands such as Bauhaus or Siouxsie & the Banshees.

I don't think that anyone is really doing any "hating" here. People are giving opinions. Who cares if someone thinks Bauhaus is lame, and someone else doesn't like glowsticks? I don't care for glowies, but that doesn't mean that I don't like eleven or SkyFire; I think they're both sweeties and like seeing them out and about. No one is trying to take anyone's goth card away here.

[Ice Queen (1)]

No offence to the Fetish people that have already posted in this thread, but being in a fetish troupe myself I think I can get away with this

BEING INTO FETISH TYPE STUFF IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS GOTH!

It angers me so much when people say that, and I am in Draconian Productions! You can very well be in both the goth and the fetish scene but they are WAY WAY different.The problem is that in detroit, the goth and fetish scenes are so small that they are clumped together into 1 scene. The majority of people in fetish are not goth in any sense and in fact are the exact opposite. Some wealthy buisness owner that wears ambercrombie and listens to top 40 music that likes to be shat on is now a fetish goth? thats incorrect. Again, its possible to be in both the scenes, especially in the Detroit area... Being into Fetish means you are kinky, not goth.

True, having a fetish does not make you goth. Being whatever the hell goth is, does not mean you are into fetish. It also CANNOT be said the two haven't coincided quite cuddly-like for years. It is not just here in Detroit, and not just recently. It has been that way in Los Angeles from before I got into it in the late 80's. Having been to other fetish events in other parts of the country and Canada, it is like that all over, and from what I can tell with mere casual observation, has been for some time.

[Scales]

In the case that I have ever come off as some Gother-Than-Thou egotistical prick on this forum, I don't think I'm more "Goth" then anyone else, or above anyone else, so I want to make that clear before I make a fool of myself which is one of my fields of study.

Many of you, man and woman, have sexy pussies- I too, have a sexy pussy,

who is sleeping under the coffee table.

With that covered, I do have a lot of love for the Gothic subculture and the tolerant people in it and I occasionally like to help mediate things which is why I'm going to make this humor-laced post-- in the hopes that it doesn't make me look like some Gother-Than-Thou egotistical prick.

The main value conflict with the "What Is Goth?" argument from what I've seen is:

The original, politically-correct music terminology that the Gothic subculture emerged from.

VS.

The more widely-accepted, modern Gothic subculture which is all-encompassing of anything that has dark or "Gothic" elements. (I would also like to mention that I'm not a Gother-Than-Thou egotistical prick.)

VS.

Satanist School Shooters - (If Manson would've known about it in advance he probably would've just had Ozzy out them with evil spirits and cheese.)

On a scale of the entire Gothic subculture, the first two sides are equally passionate and empowered in the argument, so it could go on forever as "Zee Ultimate Gothic Scene Battle," if this isn't already stating the obvious. I can sympathize with the first two definitions, the third if my life is threatened while hanging out with people at a college.

A stale-mate of differing opinions is what happens right before a debate becomes a big argument. Then the crazy kids from the third argument come in, cause the media to wreck everything, and pound the final nail in the coffin for social-acceptability of the general Gothic sexiness or non-sexiness- that is secretly sexy. (Still not trying to look like a Gother-Than-Thou egotistical prick.)

Please choose a Water, Plant, or Fire Pokemon.

That's my peace. (Hopefully without looking like a Gother-Than-Thou egotistical prick, which is not what I'm about.)

Shake and bake.

[Scary Guy]

See words and their meanings change over the years. This is just a modern example of etymology.

[DJ Nocker]

.....See now you all dont see this Post as i do, Its not to drag out this confrontation or anything but the word choice chosen, decided to tell me, in a personal way...that i was not allowed to call my self got or anything else........Not cool....Cyber goth......goth goth goth goth goth.....Goth is a state of mind.....not clothes..... not music....but a point when you are supposed to be accepting of everyone. imo....

The reason i like going to city club is because when i started going i felt welcome....I dont fit in at the top 40 clubs...yes i can shake my ass like no other and pop my booty but there is a sense of respect that we in this scene give each other....

My first bad experience honestly was on this board....the entire glow stick kids not being welcome anywhere.....honestly....that conversation that has come up more then once and has ruined my opinion on a few people....Everyone needs a place to go so why hate?

After this i got disrespected in the highest manner imo....

Whilst glow sticking at cc..+

..and as you all know i am generally very careful not to hit anyone...This douchbag greaser dude decided that i was not worthy of the dance space that i so rightfully took my time to earn. I called him out on it and he got in my face. Skyfire was the only reason that guy did not take a swing at me telling me that i didnt deserve the space i took up and me willing to stand up for myself...and i really wanna ask does any one person deserve the space more than another....just because one is goth dancing and i am working on a literal form of art? Since that altercation He managed to bitch and whine enough that they banned one of the things i enjoyed doing the most....and honestly....ill never forgive him for that....Why is it one has to be better than another???

Hate is what corrupts and so have fun hatin.....do that shit up....i know some dislike me and hate on me...because i find bright neon colors fascinating...and i dont just shoegaze....or i just dont classic goth dance....sorry i find stepping side to side rather uneventful and boring...ill partyboy to anything damn it :D

Psychobilly, and punk greaser....not goth......they have their own category just fyi...

oh and i dont think this topic belongs in here either.....

how is Gothic metal if i may ask not Gothic???? i mean....it kinda says it is in the name even...?

I dont care about glowsticks, I care about glowsticks on strings. But its gonna happen regardless and I dont really bitch about it anymore.

[hunhee]

The Gothic War

Edited March 4, 2009 by hunhee

[TheOsakaKoneko]

The Gothic War

XD

[Simon Bar Sinister]

[Rev.Reverence]

This topic doesn't belong in here I agree.

The problem with hate is it's a human condition. Hating is actually very goth since "emo's hate themselves, goths hate everyone else" lol j/k. But seriously loving your own scene is great but it doesn't mean you have to hate another just to prove your love for yours.

But no, I've equated City Club with a middle school for YEARS! There is so much negativity in the scene (even from myself because I dish out what I'm given). Bitter little rivalries and bickering between cliques, both overtly and covertly.

This is why I go with my definition as it answers everything and eliminates the need for any debate on what is or is not goth.

I'm a little sick and light headed, so I hope I'm making sense. I'm going to go lay down and may post more later when the throbbing in my brain dies down a bit.

I really do love the "line in the sand" that you drew there...seriously.

I will not take that as a joke.

EVERY Goth (kidd or elder) I have EVER known...has a day or so after some drama or another...when they hate themselves...then...they change what they hate (leaving them to not be hypocrites & still hate what they hate) ...BAM..no problem...carry on...sometimes a change takes years to perform...but there is a fighting spirit (punk) that is an underlying power for motivation...& progresses the human race further...

WHERE AS...I see these new creatures...these emo kidds (I have NEVER met ANYONE my age that claims allegiance to the emo scene)...they have no real hope for forward progression...

.....unless they enter a "tears in my beer contest".....(just what I notice) ...& I am a vigilant one...