What is "goth" ?

[Riku Namako]

Goth is a state of mind.....not clothes..... not music....but a point when you are supposed to be accepting of everyone. imo....

oh and i dont think this topic belongs in here either.....

Thank you for putting it like it is. This is exactly why this doesn't belong in this category. Its more than just music and fashion.

This topic doesn't belong in here I agree.

Yep.

It's a sensibility, and one that grows and changes with time.

I totally agree with this. There's not much else to say really. People are sensitive about certain things, and I'm not surprised that this is one of them. Trying to define it only adds to the fact that you either don't know what to really call yourself (or watch out for as the case may be), or you are looking for yet another way to separate us even more so than we already are.

All jokes aside, what I'd really like to know is why the hell Troy made this topic to begin with.

[Rev.Reverence]

Thank you for putting it like it is. .... Its more than just music and fashion.

+1...but it DID come into public view because of the music...

I totally agree with this. There's not much else to say really. People are sensitive about certain things, and I'm not surprised that this is one of them. Trying to define it only adds to the fact that you either don't know what to really call yourself (or watch out for as the case may be), or you are looking for yet another way to separate us even more so than we already are.

All jokes aside, what I'd really like to know is why the hell Troy made this topic to begin with.

...trying to define that which we perceive..& what we perceive ourselves as...& how those things interact...is I believe a function of a lil' thing that several peoples (not just Goths) dig on doing...it's called philosophy...

[Rev.Reverence]

...you know what.....I agree...this should be in the Philosophy forum....there should be another forum on DGN...

Philosophy & Spirituality & Religion

They should be broken off of Current Events...I'm just throwin' it out there

[TheOsakaKoneko]

...you know what.....I agree...this should be in the Philosophy forum....there should be another forum on DGN...

Philosophy & Spirituality & Religion

They should be broken off of Current Events...I'm just throwin' it out there

I like this idea.

I don't know why people have a problem with this thread's EXISTENCE. Is it so bad to discuss things, so impossible to have an interesting and meaningful exchange of ideas without it becoming a mud-slinging argument of who is the gawfiest?

Why do people take this so seriously? How important is it to you to be able to lay claim to the label, the four little mere letters, goth? I think this is the main problem. We can't have a conversation about what goth is without upsetting people because once you offer any opinion as to what goth is, inherent within that is what you personally believe goth is not, and someone who fits in that second group will be offended because you dared to question the relevance of those 4 little letters to them. But why care if someone else thinks you are goth or not? Like I said before, if their definition of goth is different from yours, why would you care if they think you are goth or not?

But maybe I can't understand that way of thinking, because I've never cared for labels, and I'd be the first person to call myself out for not being goth.

This same argument sometimes comes up in the lolita community. God forbid, if you are a lolita, that you should drink or have sex or do anything that's not embroidery or playing with ponies? But the only people who get really upset by it are those who don't seem to have found their own comfort space within the community/fashion/world in general yet. If you are comfortable with yourself and who you are, why would you care what someone else thinks about whether or not some silly label applies to you?

But that doesn't mean it's a stupid discussion to have. It's a very interesting discussion to have, to me at least. On a philosophical level, of a matter of speaking, as Rev said. Just don't take it personally.

And it's not like anyone would ever be using anything said here to define whether or not a certain person belonged on this board or at any event or in any place or anything else! So everyone...just chill out!! XD

[TheOsakaKoneko]

People are sensitive about certain things, and I'm not surprised that this is one of them. Trying to define it only adds to the fact that you either don't know what to really call yourself (or watch out for as the case may be), or you are looking for yet another way to separate us even more so than we already are.

I don't know about you, but I like to call myself "Helena". I have a LOT of interests, and when you gather up a biiiiig handful of them...make that a few armfuls...you'll start to get an idea of who I am. But even then it's only an idea. God save the person who tries to call me "goth" (or *any* other label) and think they have said anything at all relevant to me.

[hunhee]

I don't know about you, but I like to call myself "Helena". I have a LOT of interests, and when you gather up a biiiiig handful of them...make that a few armfuls...you'll start to get an idea of who I am. But even then it's only an idea. God save the person who tries to call me "goth" (or *any* other label) and think they have said anything at all relevant to me.

I'll just Label you "Helena"

[Riku Namako]

I don't know why people have a problem with this thread's EXISTENCE. Is it so bad to discuss things, so impossible to have an interesting and meaningful exchange of ideas without it becoming a mud-slinging argument of who is the gawfiest?

Yes, it very well can be. Just like many other things, its within our own human nature to be competitive(yes, competitive). There are certain topics out there where people draw the line, and you should know just as well as anyone else that we can't all agree on just one thing (or many things as the case may be). Is there a middle ground? Sure, there is one somewhere. There's nothing wrong with discussing it, but this kinda thing (much like it's been pointed out before) is MORE than just music and fashion. For many its a way of life, a way of existence, a way of being. That is one of the many reasons as to why this topic doesn't belong in this category. I expected you to at least be a bit more understanding about that aspect of it.

And seriously, did it really look like I had that much of a problem with this thread?

Don't bother answering that. ~.~;

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Yes, it very well can be. Just like many other things, its within our own human nature to be competitive(yes, competitive). There are certain topics out there where people draw the line, and you should know just as well as anyone else that we can't all agree on just one thing (or many things as the case may be). Is there a middle ground? Sure, there is one somewhere. There's nothing wrong with discussing it, but this kinda thing (much like it's been pointed out before) is MORE than just music and fashion. For many its a way of life, a way of existence, a way of being. That is one of the many reasons as to why this topic doesn't belong in this category. I expected you to at least be a bit more understanding about that aspect of it.

And seriously, did it really look like I had that much of a problem with this thread?

Don't bother answering that. ~.~;

I know people like to be competitive. So do I a lot of the time. Everyone does. But I don't see why people having strong feelings about something should mean we can't discuss it. People discuss things like religion, abortion, racism, and a million other very serious topics that people have very serious opinions about in academic and/or philosophical ways and people somehow manage to not get in fistfights by the end of it. I don't see why goth should be treated as a more serious or dangerous topic than these.

About its belonging or not belonging in this category: Perhaps if you (the general you, anyone) look back at Troy's original post, you'll see that he only talks about the music. Maybe, just maybe, he put it in this category BECAUSE he wanted to keep the drama out of it and keep it to music discussion, keep it to a discussion of what is and is not GOTH MUSIC, as opposed to all the things that generally make people take it personally and get upset, like the ways of life aspect and such. I don't know what he was thinking - I've never met or talked to the man. I just notice that hey, he posted in the music category, and hey, he's talking about music... hmm... It was others who brought in the drama.

And btw... I would expect *you* to realize I wasn't talking about you in general, but everyone who is saying that this thread should not exist. There are a few, not just you.

[hunhee]

I know people like to be competitive. So do I a lot of the time. Everyone does. But I don't see why people having strong feelings about something should mean we can't discuss it. People discuss things like religion, abortion, racism, and a million other very serious topics that people have very serious opinions about in academic and/or philosophical ways and people somehow manage to not get in fistfights by the end of it. I don't see why goth should be treated as a more serious or dangerous topic than these.

About its belonging or not belonging in this category: Perhaps if you (the general you, anyone) look back at Troy's original post, you'll see that he only talks about the music. Maybe, just maybe, he put it in this category BECAUSE he wanted to keep the drama out of it and keep it to music discussion, keep it to a discussion of what is and is not GOTH MUSIC, as opposed to all the things that generally make people take it personally and get upset, like the ways of life aspect and such. I don't know what he was thinking - I've never met or talked to the man. I just notice that hey, he posted in the music category, and hey, he's talking about music... hmm... It was others who brought in the drama.

And btw... I would expect *you* to realize I wasn't talking about you in general, but everyone who is saying that this thread should not exist. There are a few, not just you.

d'OH you beat me to it. as to why Troy put this thread here.

Edited March 4, 2009 by hunhee

[TheOsakaKoneko]

d'OH you beat me to it. as to why Troy put this thread here.

Hehe I've done that a few times to people on this thread so far!! XD

(See, here's that competitive thing Riku was mentioning...)

[Rev.Reverence]

I like this idea.

I don't know why people have a problem with this thread's EXISTENCE. Is it so bad to discuss things, so impossible to have an interesting and meaningful exchange of ideas without it becoming a mud-slinging argument of who is the gawfiest?

Why do people take this so seriously? How important is it to you to be able to lay claim to the label, the four little mere letters, goth? I think this is the main problem. We can't have a conversation about what goth is without upsetting people because once you offer any opinion as to what goth is, inherent within that is what you personally believe goth is not, and someone who fits in that second group will be offended because you dared to question the relevance of those 4 little letters to them. But why care if someone else thinks you are goth or not? Like I said before, if their definition of goth is different from yours, why would you care if they think you are goth or not?

But maybe I can't understand that way of thinking, because I've never cared for labels, and I'd be the first person to call myself out for not being goth.

This same argument sometimes comes up in the lolita community. God forbid, if you are a lolita, that you should drink or have sex or do anything that's not embroidery or playing with ponies? But the only people who get really upset by it are those who don't seem to have found their own comfort space within the community/fashion/world in general yet. If you are comfortable with yourself and who you are, why would you care what someone else thinks about whether or not some silly label applies to you?

But that doesn't mean it's a stupid discussion to have. It's a very interesting discussion to have, to me at least. On a philosophical level, of a matter of speaking, as Rev said. Just don't take it personally.

And it's not like anyone would ever be using anything said here to define whether or not a certain person belonged on this board or at any event or in any place or anything else! So everyone...just chill out!! XD

What a great post!

[Scary Guy]

About its belonging or not belonging in this category: Perhaps if you (the general you, anyone) look back at Troy's original post, you'll see that he only talks about the music. Maybe, just maybe, he put it in this category BECAUSE he wanted to keep the drama out of it and keep it to music discussion, keep it to a discussion of what is and is not GOTH MUSIC, as opposed to all the things that generally make people take it personally and get upset, like the ways of life aspect and such. I don't know what he was thinking - I've never met or talked to the man. I just notice that hey, he posted in the music category, and hey, he's talking about music... hmm... It was others who brought in the drama.

It works both ways again with the original and new definitions.

What scares me is if we don't update the definition and people just don't get it that they'll look at Bauhaus, Sisters, etc... and go "That's not goth, Manson, now he was goth" and I'll have to stab someone "YOU SEE THAT KNIFE STICKING OUT OF YOUR CHEST? THAT IS GOTH!".

I'm just sayin...

[Joey Deadcat]

It works both ways again with the original and new definitions.

What scares me is if we don't update the definition and people just don't get it that they'll look at Bauhaus, Sisters, etc... and go "That's not goth, Manson, now he was goth" and I'll have to stab someone "YOU SEE THAT KNIFE STICKING OUT OF YOUR CHEST? THAT IS GOTH!".

I'm just sayin...

GOFF IZ SERIUS BIZNESS!

*did The Deadcat just type in lolcat speak?

Next up: What is ska?

[TheOsakaKoneko]

GOFF IZ SERIUS BIZNESS!

*did The Deadcat just type in lolcat speak?

Next up: What is ska?

What is polka?

[Joey Deadcat]

What is polka?

Polka is serioussss businesssss!

[DJ Nocker]

GOFF IZ SERIUS BIZNESS!

*did The Deadcat just type in lolcat speak?

Next up: What is ska?

Ska= Terrible

yup, I said it sorry deadcat but I never ever could get into it, the only thing I could even tolerate is fugazi and even then it was hard.

[Joey Deadcat]

Ska= Terrible

yup, I said it sorry deadcat but I never ever could get into it, the only thing I could even tolerate is fugazi and even then it was hard.

Really? Never got into the current stuff, especially the skacore bands, but love the original 60s artists and the 2nd wave Two-Tone stuff.

[Oh_My_Goth]

What is "goth" you ask??

Let us all pray to Goth Jesus for the answer...

[candyman]

What is "goth" you ask??

Let us all pray to Goth Jesus for the answer...

I...don't believe in goth jesus...Reggae jesus maybe, but not goth jesus...

BAM!

Edited March 5, 2009 by candyman

[Guest greyhalo]

I found out what "goth" really is tonight at Deadline, but I'm not going to tell you...

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I found out what "goth" really is tonight at Deadline, but I'm not going to tell you...

Then how will the rest of us ever learn???

[Rev.Reverence]

Then how will the rest of us ever learn???

....I KNOW!....but it is not communicable in words...I could show you........

[TheOsakaKoneko]

....I KNOW!....but it is not communicable in words...I could show you........

Hmm...somehow this seems...suspicious...like a weird guy in a van with candy...

XD

[Rev.Reverence]

Hmm...somehow this seems...suspicious...like a weird guy in a van with candy...

XD

...I don't have a van...OR candy....but I am "weird"

[candyman]

Hmm...somehow this seems...suspicious...like a weird guy in a van with candy...

XD

That would be me...it's ok though my business is legit...