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What is "goth" ?

Troy Spiral

By Troy Spiral,
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Destroit
Destroit

Are we still arguing about this?  Didn't we already agree that goth is Marilyn Manson?

Destroit
Destroit

I was goth once, it was great. 

Queen of Foxes
Queen of Foxes

How I poop. 

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MinaRose Newbie

MinaRose

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Posted

What's wrong with the category it's in?

It is a very bad idea for me to say anything in this thread, because I don't really fit any definition of 'goth' and very few would put me there. Someone who wears pastels and poodle skirts and petticoats and spends every day full of contentment and joy, someone who hates poetry, someone who spent ~22 years hating on 'goth' and anything that could be considered it, someone who spends 40 hours a week in slacks and a blouse behand a desk at a computer or in meetings... I'm like the anti-goth...

Except that something changed in my early 20s. I slowly started to find out little by little what goth really was, or could be, or was to some people. It wasn't Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. I found it through the people, and I found it through the music. I discovered things like Depeche Mode and Bauhaus and Siouxsie. (Yes, I have only known the existence of these bands for far less years than I can count on one hand.) It was the music that made me open my eyes to what goth is and can be.

Plus, didn't it all start around the music? Well, not all, but the major blossoming of the subculture in the late late 70s early 80s grew out of post-punk, didn't it? Fashion and a variety of somewhat related worldviews had a lot to do with it, I'm sure, but it was mostly about the music, no? So I think it's in a fine category.

I say what goth 'can be', because there are so many things that goth can be. It's something different to each one of us, isn't it? I certainly would not claim my interpretation to be any better or more accurate than anyone else's. I will hold my interpretation up as a candle and keep its little flame safe from those who would spit on it with stereotypes of Manson and Hot Topic and bad poetry and cutting yourself and fetishes and slackerism and unemployment and vampirism and depression and isolation and social rejection and social rejecting. Heck, some of these may even fit some of your interpretations of goth, and that's fine. They just don't fit mine. I don't have to like Manson, you don't have to like Joy Division. I just rage against the stereotype of goth people as social rejects who can't function successfully in normal society, who don't have social skills and can't get a real job. I equally rage against the stereotypes of goth people as drug addicts, alcoholics, sluts, masochists, etc, fill in your stereotype here. In general I just rage against stereotypes.

In that vein, trying to define 'goth' will never work. There are too many of us, with too many differences. Any attempt at definition will lead only to stereotyping. But that doesn't mean we can't have a positive, meaningful discussion about it. But people who are going to take it seriously and personally and take offense to things said should be stopped at the door. If someone says they don't think goth is about the music, it doesn't mean they are attacking you if you think goth is about the music. If someone says they don't think goth is about fetishes, it doesn't mean they are attacking you or calling you somehow 'not goth' if you are into fetishes.

But I do hate stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I never gave anything remotely 'goth' a chance until I was in my early-mid 20s - I only saw the stereotypes. It's because of those stereotypes that I don't want my coworkers or bosses or future potential bosses to know what I do on the weekends. People do judge anyone they consider 'goth' negatively, and it's a damn shame, and I believe it's due to stereotypes that just plain aren't even relevant.

Okay, well, I don't know what else I was planning to say here, so I will shut up for the time being and see what else I think of. I just have one hope. I hope that people don't take this all too seriously and personally, resulting in this thread getting shut down. Threads seem to get shut down here all the time whenever a conversation gets going because someone's feelings got hurt. Let's keep this mature, shall we?

Disclaimer #1: I don't mean to lump liking Manson or having fetishes in with being a social reject or cutting yourself. Some of my referenced stereotypes are inherently negative, and others are completely valud-judgment-free, but I somehow don't think they should immediately follow from the word 'goth'. Some of them may even apply to me... ;) I just see them as completely separate from 'goth'. In the same way that I am a lolita, but I don't think that's the same as goth either. Just because someone wears lolita does not make them goth, and just because someone is goth (or lolita for that matter) does not make them into S&M. There may be some correlation, sure, but not 100% by far.

Disclaimer #2: If I offended anyone by anything I said in this post, I probably didn't mean that part in that way. ;) I'm just not very well-spoken.

Wow, good points. :)

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MinaRose Newbie

MinaRose

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I just want to say that *technically*, he never actually insulted anyone or said that his goth was better than anyone else's goth. Of course he thinks his goth is better, for him, in his own mind - that's why it's his goth. That's why he likes that part of it. But just stating that "there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements." is not an insult - it's a fact. I mean, come on...isn't it? There are some goths who aren't fetish or cyber or vampire or Ren Faire or depressed or poetic. ;) Right? Therefore he's right - there is a scene that is not about those elements. How is this an insult? Saying there are people who distance themselves from the other subsets of goth doesn't insult those other subsets. You can take it as such if you want to, I suppose, but I don't think it's inherently there... :/ He didn't say 'zomg all you people who ARE into those elements, you all SUCK and you aren't goth and you never will be and you aren't fit to be around and you aren't fit to live!1!!' I think a lot of us need to take a deep breath and realize not everyone's out to get us...

Nice explanation. :)

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DJ Nocker Newbie

DJ Nocker

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I like my goth better than your goth, which is one of the many reasons I'm probably never going to Deadline.

Its just a joke man. I dont see your problem with deadline, no one from there has insulted you and your performing at the works on saterday....

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Guest greyhalo

Guest greyhalo

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I like my goth better than your goth, which is one of the many reasons I'm probably never going to Deadline.

It's cool. I probably won't be going to Circus Obscene anytime soon either. :wink

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n0Mad Collaborator

n0Mad

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I am quite sure that he is NOT starting a fight... :biggrin:

I started a fight last night at Circus Obscene ... it was great. And I'll be starting the exact same fight this Saturday at The Works for Sinister Circus Dementale. My scene kicks ass! Literally. :laugh:

PS - Actually, Mantindome started the fight. I just finished it. :happy:

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Ice Queen Newbie

Ice Queen (1)

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I started a fight last night at Circus Obscene ... it was great. And I'll be starting the exact same fight this Saturday at The Works for Sinister Circus Dementale. My scene kicks ass! Literally. :laugh:

PS - Actually, Mantindome started the fight. I just finished it. :happy:

And then I punished him for starting it in the first place =P

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DJDeadbeat Newbie

DJDeadbeat

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Posted

Gloria Mundi, UK Decay, Adam and the Antz, Bauhaus, Rocky Horror Picture Show, A sense of humour, boredom of the punk scene, romanticization of love, death, religion, and taboo naive subject matter, a fascination and appreciation for the beauty in everything.

Boom, suck it. I did it in a run-on sentence. Didn't even mention the word black in there.

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Rev.Reverence Newbie

Rev.Reverence

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Gloria Mundi, UK Decay, Adam and the Antz, Bauhaus, Rocky Horror Picture Show, A sense of humour, boredom of the punk scene, romanticization of love, death, religion, and taboo naive subject matter, a fascination and appreciation for the beauty in everything.

Boom, suck it. I did it in a run-on sentence. Didn't even mention the word black in there.

:clap:

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candyman Newbie

candyman

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Posted

Gloria Mundi, UK Decay, Adam and the Antz, Bauhaus, Rocky Horror Picture Show, A sense of humour, boredom of the punk scene, romanticization of love, death, religion, and taboo naive subject matter, a fascination and appreciation for the beauty in everything.

Boom, suck it. I did it in a run-on sentence. Didn't even mention the word black in there.

:jamin:jamin:jamin:jamin

Oh, but one thing I find wrong with that...the punk scene is not really that boring...but then again it could be where you live...

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