What is "goth" ?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Better to have it in its own topic than have it hijack every 10th topic that comes along.

I'll start with a sub-point rather than list off all the characteristics that could get something labeled as "goth".

Goth does not necessarily mean good. Often I see people listing off stuff that "isn't goth", when its pretty damn goth as far as I can tell. When what they really mean, but sometimes aren't even aware of why they are doing it, is to "I don't like it". Not liking something is nice and all.... but to extend "I hate it.", "...therefore it isn't goth." is poor reasoning. A secondary error along the same lines is "its too popular, therefore it can't be goth."

On Labels: "LABELS" are necessary for civilization to exist. We can't even communicate on a level other than grunts and throwing shit at each other without them. Don't like labels? Sorry. Unless your moving back into the caves, they are here to stay.

It's also not up to the artists to declare their gothyness. If that was the case not even the most canononical goth music could be considered goth. The goth deniers are legion. Robert Smith, Nick Cave, Andrew Elderich, Peter Murphy and a billion other well known names (along with their PR crews) have all denied or tried very hard to distance themselves from the term "goth". Goth is a term that is defined by the masses, not by the artists themselves.

Even better are what I'd call the "semi goth". Just a measurement of the level of goth they have in them I guess, they are still gothic , that is, having the characteristics of goth, if not "wholly goth". These type groups that deny up and down any label of "gothic" despite it being obvious to a deaf and blind man they are heavily influenced (and are making money off the backs of) the goth scene.

(1979) - Rokey definitely wouldn't be considered a "goth artist" but a shit ton (metric measurement) of his music is, no question, "gothic.".

If this isn't goth... well, just know that you suck. hah.

[candyman]

Hmm...I have actually been pondering this for few hours now...

Well, first most of my "friends" say that I will never be goth. Their reasoning: I don't wear "goth" clothing all the time, mostly jeans and a black hood with boots, and they say that a "goth" would never drive a silver honda accord. Oh and my cat is not black so they say that doesn't make me "goth" either.

As far as music goes I think that some of the best "gothic" bands out there never considered themselves "gothic". For example, Cradle of Filth...they are not "gothic" but they have many musical qualities that a real "metal" band would not have...the female vocals, the orchestra, etc...

I keep getting labeled as a "scary kid" by many of the "true goths" back home. But, I often think of the "goth" scene as a sister of the punk scene...both are often called "dead" when in reality they are just doing what they were meant to do...and that is to mean something to the individuals that are really into it. Punks don't preach to other punks on how to dress, what to listen to, what to drive, etc...and if they do then they are not punks, because punk is in you. The same goes for the goth scene...its you and nothing else.

I don't know...I'm probably just rambling mindlessly suffering from lack of sleep, food, and cigarettes...but if this gets blown apart then I will just gather my brain later and type something better...

[n0Mad]

I almost ranted in another thread earlier but decided not to. Now that this topic is here, I may go ahead and add my rant tomorrow when I have time to type it all out.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Hmm...I have actually been pondering this for few hours now...

Well, first most of my "friends" say that I will never be goth. Their reasoning: I don't wear "goth" clothing all the time, mostly jeans and a black hood with boots, and they say that a "goth" would never drive a silver honda accord. Oh and my cat is not black so they say that doesn't make me "goth" either.

As far as music goes I think that some of the best "gothic" bands out there never considered themselves "gothic". For example, Cradle of Filth...they are not "gothic" but they have many musical qualities that a real "metal" band would not have...the female vocals, the orchestra, etc...

I keep getting labeled as a "scary kid" by many of the "true goths" back home. But, I often think of the "goth" scene as a sister of the punk scene...both are often called "dead" when in reality they are just doing what they were meant to do...and that is to mean something to the individuals that are really into it. Punks don't preach to other punks on how to dress, what to listen to, what to drive, etc...and if they do then they are not punks, because punk is in you. The same goes for the goth scene...its you and nothing else.

I don't know...I'm probably just rambling mindlessly suffering from lack of sleep, food, and cigarettes...but if this gets blown apart then I will just gather my brain later and type something better...

We could separate it into two categories:

"Totally goth" - that something that very few people would even think twice about calling it (whatever "it" is) gothic. That has a wide acceptance as being in the Gothic cannon.

or

"Gothic" - Meaning "having some characteristics of goth" with a small G. A shitton of stuff falls under this category. So say someone is into "goth stuff" they are "Gothic" but not whatever we wasn't to call "hardcore" Gothic.

If something or someone is "Not gothic at all" that's about the only thing I'd say "isn't gothic". Pretty much as soon as something seems gothic, its at least a bit goth. Just a question of degree.

And as always, this is not a life or death situation. OH NO someone doesn't agree with our personal definition of what "Gothic" is? *twirls finger around in air* Big F-ing deal. Relax, its just a term. There are actually important things to get excited about in the world.

[candyman]

We could separate it into two categories:

"Totally goth" - that something that very few people would even think twice about calling it (whatever "it" is) gothic. That has a wide acceptance as being in the Gothic cannon.

or

"Gothic" - Meaning "having some characteristics of goth" with a small G. A shitton of stuff falls under this category. So say someone is into "goth stuff" they are "Gothic" but not whatever we wasn't to call "hardcore" Gothic.

If something or someone is "Not gothic at all" that's about the only thing I'd say "isn't gothic". Pretty much as soon as something seems gothic, its at least a bit goth. Just a question of degree.

And as always, this is not a life or death situation. OH NO someone doesn't agree with our personal definition of what "Gothic" is? *twirls finger around in air* Big F-ing deal. Relax, its just a term. There are actually important things to get excited about in the world.

Yeah...I never really get to the point of being bothered with it at all. When goths get to bickering with me it kinda gets on my nerves...but it just ends up with me thinking of that south park episode because the people that give me shit are always at hot topic and always carry themselves with a smug attitude.

I just usually dress like a punk/goth...with the "goth mindset" and punk political views.

Could I dress like a "true goth" every day? Sure...but I don't because the vehicles I work on tend to eat that kind of clothing which puts me in harms way...not to mention the stuff that doesn't get eaten would get covered in crap. There is also the acceptance part...its ok for anyone to dress like a rap star every day and wear huge diamond earings...but if I were to go head to toe in even my finest tailored suit, done by a seamstress at the local bondage shop, I would not be able to get very far...even though I do look pretty "pimp" in that shit...pointy shoes and all...

Being into gothic stuff could also be debated...as for me its really the only thing that I have actually liked...its not like I act completely different any other time...then there are the weekenders...I still don't know what to think of them. On one hand they could be retareded wanna-be fakes that think its "cool" to play goth now and then...but I always feel like an asshole for judging them like that...

This is too complicated...my head hurts...qualude time...

[candyman]

Crap, just remembered my music part of this.

Yeah, The Rave in Milwaukee is probably as "goth" as it gets. The vast majority of the bands that play there are "goth" and The Rave prides itself on that fact. It's really one of the only "super clubs" left right now and was first used when the boom in Big Band Swing first started. Now its a three level club with all the original equipment and looks, some modified for updates but still keeping the old look, and it definitely has a "gothic" mood to it. It was the first place that Cradle of Filth ever played in North America too!

Most of the concerts are all ages and anyone can come in with such low ticket prices so, there are always people there that "just love to rock"...which tends to piss me off. However, the crowd is always pulsing on one side where all of us "true" goths gather. You know, the side that bitches about people moshing through the whole damn concert, from before the bands come on stage till after the music is done playing and even for slow songs. We always love to point out the idiots that are trying to play goth on the weekends. Like the Type O Negative concert...good lord some of these people really need help. Throwing on a pair of Tripp pants alone does not make you goth...and the make-up...I can slam my face in mud and do better than that!

But, despite some of the people that need a life, The Rave is still a place where "gothic" music can be home when in Wisconsin...yes legal shit has forced The Rave to let other types of music play there...but I will do my best to get the band list that The Rave has piled up over the years....because if a band is on that list it is more than likely "goth".

I would like to add that without the usual crowd and the whole ambiance that The Rave has, some of these bands would "not qualify"...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Being into gothic stuff could also be debated...as for me its really the only thing that I have actually liked...its not like I act completely different any other time...then there are the weekenders...I still don't know what to think of them. On one hand they could be retareded wanna-be fakes that think its "cool" to play goth now and then...but I always feel like an asshole for judging them like that...

Or.. they could be people that "dressed the part" 24/7 in college and while they still had "kid jobs" until they got a job in corporate America, started a career and decided that making a living was more important than goth street cred. *looks guilty*

Of the people I know that I'd call "hardcore goths". I'd say 99.9% of them would be what I'd call 'weekenders'. Who, would be more "full time" if their jobs didn't prohibit it.

But there we get into a discussion about dress code = goth? Which I'd have to disagree with.

Also the Hot Topic question... I'm a bit skewed on this one since, back in the day, (we are talking a decade ago) hot topic was not "looked down on". Plus I personally, never looked down on it. The same way I don't give a shit if you buy you clothes at K-Mart or Louis Vuitton. If a place has what you want, it has what you want, if it doesn't it doesn't.

[candyman]

Or.. they could be people that "dressed the part" 24/7 in college and while they still had "kid jobs" until they got a job in corporate America, started a career and decided that making a living was more important than goth street cred. *looks guilty*

Of the people I know that I'd call "hardcore goths". I'd say 99.9% of them would be what I'd call 'weekenders'. Who, would be more "full time" if their jobs didn't prohibit it.

But there we get into a discussion about dress code = goth? Which I'd have to disagree with.

Also the Hot Topic question... I'm a bit skewed on this one since, back in the day, (we are talking a decade ago) hot topic was not "looked down on". Plus I personally, never looked down on it. The same way I don't give a shit if you buy you clothes at K-Mart or Louis Vuitton. If a place has what you want, it has what you want, if it doesn't it doesn't.

I should have expanded on that. I mostly mean the teenagers that were obviously not doing this because its just what they do...having asked quite a few of them I know that many of them were just playing the part to "fit in" which I find to be a terrible idea. I didn't really mean the dress code so much as I meant the whole attitude towards the whole thing...they are usually all giddy like its fucking Halloween or something...and if clothing is brought into it they don't really know their ass from a hole in the ground...even freaks like Lizard Man would wonder what these people were thinking...

I totally understand the people that can't possibly "be goth" all the time...I am kinda one of them.

And I also do not look down on hot topic that much...the one in my area is still untouched from the early days of Ministry and still has a very good reputation...however, there are more and more hot topics that are turning into pac-sun clones...everything from the clothing to the workers and even to the furnishings themselves.

I don't have street cred anywhere...

[deadbydesire]

anyone know of a good goth club?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

anyone know of a good goth club?

Is that sarcasm or are you actually asking? (hard to tell on the internet)

[Joey Deadcat]

anyone know of a good goth club?

Deadline Wednesdays @ The Works...

[n0Mad]

Well, here is the rant that I promised. And the fact that this topic is in the music forum adds to what I'm saying.

In another topic, there was a bit of heated discussion on how one club is better than another because the former is all about the music and the latter just has silly little fetish shows. So does that mean the only thing goth is music? I thought it also included fashion, art, literature, film ... a whole culture and mind set.

A while ago, JynxxxedAngel found a site that has a whole bunch of goth stereotypes including Corp Goth, Victorian Goth, Medieval Goth, Steampunk Goth, etc. Well, one I scored highly as was the Fetish Goth. That is what brought me to City Club and DGN. Not the music, but hot chicks in vinyl, floggers, bondage, etc. Yes, I do enjoy music but my tastes aren't even goth though they're related. I like Industrial, EBM, Darkwave, Synthpop ... but honestly, if a club plays nothing but NIN, Ministry, and Ramstein all night I could care less as long as my fetish element is there.

I'm a kinky person that enjoys exploring multiple aspects of BDSM in the bedroom. I have multiple paraphilias (though more as an interest and not so much a psychological condition). One thing I love about DGN is we're an open community and I can discuss my kinks and not have to feel ashamed about them and hide in the closet. But honestly I was very offended by the music snobs who were putting down my culture because it's not as goth as their music. Fuck, I'd rather watch a flogging scene set to Katy Perry than a bunch of people dancing to Bauhaus. Does that mean I'm not goth? Does that mean I'm not as good as the music snobs?

Recently, in another thread, a DJ stated that DJing is so easy pretty much anybody could do it and he'd be willing to teach anyone who asked. Well, as a fetish performer I would like to say that what I do is incredibly difficult and not everyone can do it even with years of training and practice. And hell, I won't even do a flesh pull or suspension because I can't even take the piercing. But does that mean I'm better than the music snobs?

No. We're all just as goth or ungoth as the next. We're just one of the many dozens of sub-genres that exist within the gothic community and I think we need to start showing each other a bit more respect. We are more alike than we are different.

[Ice Queen (1)]

Is this another one of those nightmares where I am back in high school?

Too bad there's no way to institute a minimum maturity level needed to post here. This place used to be a nice place to hang out online.

edited to add: This response is to whatever it was the prompted this discussion in the first place. It had to be pretty juvenile

Edited March 2, 2009 by Ice Queen

[candyman]

Well, here is the rant that I promised. And the fact that this topic is in the music forum adds to what I'm saying.

In another topic, there was a bit of heated discussion on how one club is better than another because the former is all about the music and the latter just has silly little fetish shows. So does that mean the only thing goth is music? I thought it also included fashion, art, literature, film ... a whole culture and mind set.

A while ago, JynxxxedAngel found a site that has a whole bunch of goth stereotypes including Corp Goth, Victorian Goth, Medieval Goth, Steampunk Goth, etc. Well, one I scored highly as was the Fetish Goth. That is what brought me to City Club and DGN. Not the music, but hot chicks in vinyl, floggers, bondage, etc. Yes, I do enjoy music but my tastes aren't even goth though they're related. I like Industrial, EBM, Darkwave, Synthpop ... but honestly, if a club plays nothing but NIN, Ministry, and Ramstein all night I could care less as long as my fetish element is there.

I'm a kinky person that enjoys exploring multiple aspects of BDSM in the bedroom. I have multiple paraphilias (though more as an interest and not so much a psychological condition). One thing I love about DGN is we're an open community and I can discuss my kinks and not have to feel ashamed about them and hide in the closet. But honestly I was very offended by the music snobs who were putting down my culture because it's not as goth as their music. Fuck, I'd rather watch a flogging scene set to Katy Perry than a bunch of people dancing to Bauhaus. Does that mean I'm not goth? Does that mean I'm not as good as the music snobs?

Recently, in another thread, a DJ stated that DJing is so easy pretty much anybody could do it and he'd be willing to teach anyone who asked. Well, as a fetish performer I would like to say that what I do is incredibly difficult and not everyone can do it even with years of training and practice. And hell, I won't even do a flesh pull or suspension because I can't even take the piercing. But does that mean I'm better than the music snobs?

No. We're all just as goth or ungoth as the next. We're just one of the many dozens of sub-genres that exist within the gothic community and I think we need to start showing each other a bit more respect. We are more alike than we are different.

...but as a music "snob" I do consider myself better than most...but its not just "goth" music its all music...

[Scary Guy]

edited to add: This response is to whatever it was the prompted this discussion in the first place. It had to be pretty juvenile

OMGHI2U XD

I'll chime in with a real response later.

[Ivy_Cat]

The way I see it it"s pretty simple!! if everyone was true to themselves.. and did what they wanted to do.. and explored what they wanted to explore without following the group you could not label anyone!! but we live in a world were labels are a given!! some for good, some for bad.. some because we dont understand each other...

What I do not understand is the insulting.. its low.. its childish... like ICE QUEEN said the thread that inspired this was the most high school style thread i have read in a very long time, and for what purpose? none.. We all have opinions.. and its great that we live in a country were we can express them! (I come from a country were if you speak your mind you could dissapear).. so lets use that freedom WITHOUT HURTING EACH OTHER!! It is really NOT necessary... we don't have to like the same things, and there are ways to express what we like and dislike without calling each other names.. insults.. or anything of the sort!

Sorry I try to implant this ideas on my children.. cause i HATE when people insult each other just because they do not understand someone's lifestyle.. you don't have to like it! but you can respect it!

THis is not really a rant.. it is just something I have been thinking about all day! IT is what it is.. i can't change people.. but maybe We can all start thinking a little more before we get judgmental and mean towards each other! Let's get along... and you know, sometimes asking questions to each other about what we don't understand can lead to great friendships!!

[Scary Guy]

Time for me to chime in I think, with my gospel of the one true goth definition. If you don't like it I will totally go jihad on your ass. Troy said it best I think in the original post. Just because we don't like something doesn't mean it isn't goth. It's also been stated more than once that most of the best goth bands and their marketing teams have stayed FAR away from the goth label for the obvious reasons that if they accept us the rest of society will shun them (even though they pretty much already do).

It's not goth or not goth/black and white/easily definable. What it is are shades of gray and obfuscation. By my definition EVERYTHING IS GOTH! it's just a matter of to what degree...

Being gothic to me is having an appreciation for the darker things in life. If you can appreciate the beauty in wilted flowers you can understand what goth is. It's not completely about depression and usually tends to be quite the opposite. It's getting JOY from things that would normally depress most people.

This all pretty much spouted off from the "video" thread, which I backed out of because I think everyone posting videos in it are completely wrong just by the nature of the title since it goes against the new definition of the word.

Technically (if you want to be a super elitist snob) it was born from 1970's punk and most people call it either post-punk or deathrock now (different genres with similar roots) because everyone shat over the original definition and things got really confusing, then Manson became known as "goth" and none of them wanted to be associated with that douchebag so Manson actually has done way more harm than good for the scene (even if I do like SOME of his music/lyrics and ideals).

It spans all genres including EBM/synthpop/industrial/emo/IDM/etc... and all styles of fashion including steampunk (edwardian)/cyber/victorian/punk/etc... has origins from around the world, and spans all religions including Catholicism, Judaism, Paganism, Buddhism, and even Atheism (which isn't a religion). Basically the only requirement in media and art for something to be gothic is for it to be really really dark in nature.

I submit that you can't measure what it is or is not but only the degree of how much it is. Why people don't get this I don't know because it seems retardedly simple and logical to me.

It's like the debate of if Pluto is a planet or not. First you have to define what makes a planet. Maybe compared to Jupiter we're not a planet since it's size is much much larger than all the rest. Is it a mass of matter that orbits the sun in a somewhat circular pattern that is larger than a small moon? Yes? Fuck it it's a planet then. (ok stupid analogy but if someone can figure out or see where I was going with it by all means take it over and finish the thought, my brain is fried right now).

[Ice Queen (1)]

Technically (if you want to be a super elitist snob) it was born from 1970's punk and most people call it either post-punk or deathrock now (different genres with similar roots) because everyone shat over the original definition and things got really confusing, then Manson became known as "goth" and none of them wanted to be associated with that douchebag so Manson actually has done way more harm than good for the scene (even if I do like SOME of his music/lyrics and ideals).

This just reminded me: Years ago, when someone was looking at pictures of me from high school and a few years later, they said something like "oh, you were gothic?" I thought....gothic architecture, gothic art, gothic literature?

I said, "What?, What are you talking about?" They explained. I said, "I guess I was goth before it was goth. I'd always heard it referenced as deathrock."

Ok, so now I've really aged myself. But, it's not like I lie about my age on the board or anything. Wait....does that mean I'm an elitist snob? Oh ya, I already was

[Joey Deadcat]

I'm just glad that there exists a "dark scene" that rejects the whole fetish/cyber/vampire/Ren-Faire/depression/bad poetry elements. If the mallgoths, metalheads,fetishists,and gravers wanna keep using the "g" word, eh, let 'em. There's a whole separate scene/movement that distances itself from all of that.

And I like that there's a slew of current/newer bands that shun the cliches and bs that had been associated with goth.

[Rev.Reverence]

Well, here is the rant that I promised. And the fact that this topic is in the music forum adds to what I'm saying.

In another topic, there was a bit of heated discussion on how one club is better than another because the former is all about the music and the latter just has silly little fetish shows. So does that mean the only thing goth is music? I thought it also included fashion, art, literature, film ... a whole culture and mind set.

A while ago, JynxxxedAngel found a site that has a whole bunch of goth stereotypes including Corp Goth, Victorian Goth, Medieval Goth, Steampunk Goth, etc. Well, one I scored highly as was the Fetish Goth. That is what brought me to City Club and DGN. Not the music, but hot chicks in vinyl, floggers, bondage, etc. Yes, I do enjoy music but my tastes aren't even goth though they're related. I like Industrial, EBM, Darkwave, Synthpop ... but honestly, if a club plays nothing but NIN, Ministry, and Ramstein all night I could care less as long as my fetish element is there.

I'm a kinky person that enjoys exploring multiple aspects of BDSM in the bedroom. I have multiple paraphilias (though more as an interest and not so much a psychological condition). One thing I love about DGN is we're an open community and I can discuss my kinks and not have to feel ashamed about them and hide in the closet. But honestly I was very offended by the music snobs who were putting down my culture because it's not as goth as their music. Fuck, I'd rather watch a flogging scene set to Katy Perry than a bunch of people dancing to Bauhaus. Does that mean I'm not goth? Does that mean I'm not as good as the music snobs?

Recently, in another thread, a DJ stated that DJing is so easy pretty much anybody could do it and he'd be willing to teach anyone who asked. Well, as a fetish performer I would like to say that what I do is incredibly difficult and not everyone can do it even with years of training and practice. And hell, I won't even do a flesh pull or suspension because I can't even take the piercing. But does that mean I'm better than the music snobs?

No. We're all just as goth or ungoth as the next. We're just one of the many dozens of sub-genres that exist within the gothic community and I think we need to start showing each other a bit more respect. We are more alike than we are different.

Woo..Woo..WOO!

You Sir, have pounded the nail into the wood...

[Destroit]

The way I see it it"s pretty simple!! if everyone was true to themselves.. and did what they wanted to do.. and explored what they wanted to explore without following the group you could not label anyone!! but we live in a world were labels are a given!! some for good, some for bad.. some because we dont understand each other...

What I do not understand is the insulting.. its low.. its childish... like ICE QUEEN said the thread that inspired this was the most high school style thread i have read in a very long time, and for what purpose? none.. We all have opinions.. and its great that we live in a country were we can express them! (I come from a country were if you speak your mind you could dissapear).. so lets use that freedom WITHOUT HURTING EACH OTHER!! It is really NOT necessary... we don't have to like the same things, and there are ways to express what we like and dislike without calling each other names.. insults.. or anything of the sort!

Sorry I try to implant this ideas on my children.. cause i HATE when people insult each other just because they do not understand someone's lifestyle.. you don't have to like it! but you can respect it!

THis is not really a rant.. it is just something I have been thinking about all day! IT is what it is.. i can't change people.. but maybe We can all start thinking a little more before we get judgmental and mean towards each other! Let's get along... and you know, sometimes asking questions to each other about what we don't understand can lead to great friendships!!

I agree with this entire post except something small in wording: I don't have to respect anyone's lifestyle that I don't agree with. I live in America, I must tolerate it, and yes there is a difference.

[Homicidalheathen]

goth is any music that induces bat shitting upon impact.

[Scary Guy]

Woo..Woo..WOO!

You Sir, have pounded the nail into the wood...

Thank you, I do try. I think with logic and reasoning almost anything can be accomplished. Occam's Razor strikes again!

I agree with this entire post except something small in wording: I don't have to respect anyone's lifestyle that I don't agree with. I live in America, I must tolerate it, and yes there is a difference.

That one south park on it should be required viewing for all.

[freydis]

Personally?

I think I'm more gothic in the literary sense of the word.

[Oh_My_Goth]

The "goth" I used to know no longer exists.. It actually died when allot of people on this board were either pre-teen or still pissing their beds...

The "goth" I see now is a bunch of whiny little bitches with shitty attitudes.. People that must define themselves as something that used to be cool, so they can avoid the truth.. As the truth is they are just a bunch of reject nerds who could never have 'a place' in this world unless they labeled themselves.

Well actually, the original 'goths' were pretty nerdy, but they just happened to get a sense of style

Now, now.. before you go get yer knickers in a knot... I would never refer to anyone on this board with Me definition.. Really... I swear