Find a Tea Party near you!

[ttogreh]

Ok, fine... two to three percent shrinkage this year, or over the next four years? Cite your sources, or get the fuck out.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9022700884.html

http://www.jamiegator.com/blog/2009/03/21/...roposed-budget/

Although the economy is likely to continue to deteriorate for some time, the enactment of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and very aggressive actions by the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are projected to help end the recession in the fall of 2009. In CBO’s forecast, on a fourth-quarter-to-fourth-quarter basis, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP falls by 1.5 percent in 2009 before growing by 4.1 percent in both 2010 and 2011.

[Rev.Reverence]

That did not broach my question.

I mean...did the moving of as many jobs in the fabrication & telephone service industries as Corporate America could ship...make that GDP thing go down? OR did the Corperate pie-rats make up for it by encreacing their profits by that much?

Is that a clear question? I'm just wading into this stuff here.

[peelingchrome]

There are multiple reasons why we're in a bad economy....and not all of it is governmental.

Unions are a good reason. Yeah, I said it. The Unions are a decent chunk of the mess we are in. For decades, they have complained, whined, and striked themselves into better and better positions of power within the companies, bleeding the companies for every red cent they can get, while their jobs get easier and easier. $20-$30 an hour to press a button all day?? Seriously?? And if we don't pay you that....your gonna go on strike and then EVERYONE suffers because you don't want to get paid REALISTICALLY for the work you do.....awesome....thanks.

The CAW FINALLY had the bright idea of "hey....if we're gonna keep this shyt afloat, we need to bleed a little too". We watched for MONTHS as the CAW was fighting with every car company about having to take ANY kind of cut in anything, while the car makers were trying to stave off cutting off every limb to save the body.

If the Unions were abolished (stop getting all fumey....just listen first, ok?), there are several things that could happen. Lets take your $20-30 an hour and break it down to $15....thats a fair, proper wage, and if your smart, you can get by on that just fine. We're not getting rid of the major benefits, but we're gonna cut off the useless crap. There is a cap to your 401k. IF you want a decent retirement, learn to invest properly and save, because we're done paying out a ton for people that don't work for us anymore. We appreciate the amount of work you put in, and you'll still get a check, but it's not going to be this large ass check your getting every month. Next time, learn when it is ok to splurge.

The money saved could go into SAVING and EXPANDING current plants and buildings (wait...MORE jobs???...what???) and possibily the OPENING of more plants, either new ones or refurbashing ones that are closed (more jobs...AGAIN??).

Now, we take some of the money and divert it into a program that will provide Goverment Job Training and Placement Facilities. You are ok with machines, but you can't run a centerless grinder? We'll teach you, giving you 6-8 weeks of the basic knowledge needed to do whatever it is you need to learn for the job. This means that you learn more skills, and are a better asset to the companies out there that are looking for specific trades. If you can't learn the skills, then you can't get the job, but you can have the skills without learning it at the job.....but not with the GJT&PF's!!!

and before you start crying on how I am talking about screwing over the blue collar working man, or how the companies will get all rough and tumble again......I want you to think of where we are now, where the blue collar working man is ALREADY getting screwed, he is IN the Union (or not), he gets paid even if he ISN'T WORKING (ever wonder why cars are so damn expensive??), and he is FORCED to go on strike (or can't get back to work because another Union is on strike).

looks to me like everyone wins: Companies don't have to bleed money from gaping wounds, but instead can save what they have, and possibly go BACK to expanding; Blue collar working people have a shot at MORE jobs, because the job markets RISES to fill the positions at the expanding companies; Those without the skills for specific tasks or positions are given the oppertunity to LEARN those skills at a training facility, instead of going "well, fuck...I'll never get to do that....guess no job for me today."; and the Economy climbs UP the mountian because prices will drop (no mandatory union fees will lower prices on almost everything) and more people will have jobs.

gosh....I think I just boosted the Economy by getting rid of one of the parts that are bleeding it now....GO, ME!!!

unfortunately....I highly doubt that we will ever have a goverment with the balls enough to do this.

This was the first thing I read when I woke up today... I haven't had a smile on my face that big, and that early, in a loooooong time. *standing on bed, pumping fist in the air, cheering* This is the kind of valid, effective solution we need in these times. Also, I like the non-government, out-of-the-box style of thinking. Sure, the government sucks, but I think that a problem this big needs a lot of little solutions from a lot of angles.

My sleep-addled brain can't think of another non-government suggestion, but I'd like to throw this one out there: drug legalization. Before you get all up in arms go do a bit of reading: here http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124061360462654683.html and here http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080. By implementing this sort of thing, estimates say we'll save 10-40 billion dollars annually, but I don't know if that includes incarceration costs for current inmates being released. That may just be a drop in the bucket financially, but I think (with full legalization) we'd be able to handle this depression a bit better. First is the obvious reason: people don't need to stress while using their recently-legalized recreational products. Second, we'd be taking a LOT of violence off the street. Third, it would take away a (in my opinion) useless complaint that people have had with our current - and last few- presidents so that they can focus more on the real issues.

Wait a tick. Did I just suggest something that would give the government money, make everyone safer, and take away a political smokescreen? All in one shot? Damn, I'm good. Then, what if the government puts the taxes from those products towards cutting taxes on cigarettes? Ya know, use those taxes for whatever they're taxing cigarettes for? Yeah, I know. It's crazy to suggest that the government cut taxes on the "evil" smokers, but I still believe that we smokers are people, too.

I will smile just as big as I did this morning on the day that my friends can go to CVS and pick up a dime bag instead of having to dodge cops.

Can't we all just get along? Peace, friends.

[ttogreh]

Jesus, Gaf.

Comparing the actual economic growth of sixteen years to the projected growth of one year is utterly unfair, as well as disingenuous.

Seriously, what the hell are you trying to prove, that anyone that believes you is an idiot?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Yep, cant refute me.. so gotta attack my charactor.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

That did not broach my question.

I mean...did the moving of as many jobs in the fabrication & telephone service industries as Corporate America could ship...make that GDP thing go down? OR did the Corperate pie-rats make up for it by encreacing their profits by that much?

Is that a clear question? I'm just wading into this stuff here.

it's clear.. I just don't think I can answer it.

[phee]

Yep, cant refute me.. so gotta attack my charactor.

*scratches head* so anyone who attacks obama's character... it's because they can't refute him???

[Rev.Reverence]

it's clear.. I just don't think I can answer it.

Cool...at least I know what I want to know; now.

[ttogreh]

Stating that the act of comparing 16 years of concrete data to one year of projections is disingenuous is not an attack on your character.

Stating that you suck at playing fast and loose with the facts is an attack on your character.

See, I can multitask.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

*scratches head* so anyone who attacks obama's character... it's because they can't refute him???

I didn't say that. it just seems to be ttogreh's tactic towards me.

[phee]

I didn't say that. it just seems to be ttogreh's tactic towards me.

Oh okay....

[torn asunder]

Ok, fine... two to three percent shrinkage this year, or over the next four years? Cite your sources, or get the fuck out.

look, knock of the GTFO talk, alright? it's wholly unecessary...

[IsleofRhodesEnt]

This was the first thing I read when I woke up today... I haven't had a smile on my face that big, and that early, in a loooooong time. *standing on bed, pumping fist in the air, cheering* This is the kind of valid, effective solution we need in these times. Also, I like the non-government, out-of-the-box style of thinking. Sure, the government sucks, but I think that a problem this big needs a lot of little solutions from a lot of angles.

My sleep-addled brain can't think of another non-government suggestion, but I'd like to throw this one out there: drug legalization. Before you get all up in arms go do a bit of reading: here http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124061360462654683.html and here http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080. By implementing this sort of thing, estimates say we'll save 10-40 billion dollars annually, but I don't know if that includes incarceration costs for current inmates being released. That may just be a drop in the bucket financially, but I think (with full legalization) we'd be able to handle this depression a bit better. First is the obvious reason: people don't need to stress while using their recently-legalized recreational products. Second, we'd be taking a LOT of violence off the street. Third, it would take away a (in my opinion) useless complaint that people have had with our current - and last few- presidents so that they can focus more on the real issues.

Wait a tick. Did I just suggest something that would give the government money, make everyone safer, and take away a political smokescreen? All in one shot? Damn, I'm good. Then, what if the government puts the taxes from those products towards cutting taxes on cigarettes? Ya know, use those taxes for whatever they're taxing cigarettes for? Yeah, I know. It's crazy to suggest that the government cut taxes on the "evil" smokers, but I still believe that we smokers are people, too.

I will smile just as big as I did this morning on the day that my friends can go to CVS and pick up a dime bag instead of having to dodge cops.

Can't we all just get along? Peace, friends.

lol....while I appreciate the cheers, I gotta say that, while I see your point of view, the legalization of drugs is a dangerous thing. I can understand pot...I mean it's pot....it's not by far the most dangerous thing out there, but there is something to be said for the whole theory of "well...you legalized pot...why can't you legalize cocaine? or Meth? or Heroin?" and thats when it gets dangerous.

The biggiest problem with legalizing drugs, weather it be pot or something else, is that your talking about legalizing a mind altering substance with no real regulation on it (I know, I know....booze...I know), but lets look at all the problems WITH booze...and now apply that to legalized drugs, such as if pot became legal.

[IsleofRhodesEnt]

I didn't say that. it just seems to be ttogreh's tactic towards me.

your right....you didn't say that.....in those exact words.

but you have come across that way on more then several occasions, Gaf, just as I have come across as other such things in the past.

We been over this before....your a good spinner...but not as good as you think, or your subconcious thinks, you are.

Did ttogreh cross the line?...yeah....it could have been worded MUCH better and with less aggression.

however, I stand with his fact that your comparing at least 16 years of slow growth, that had it's falls as well, to some PROJECTED (therefore not 100% accurate because it didn't happen yet) shrinkage that may or may not happen, or only be one of the falls that we have expierianced as a country OVER and OVER again.

It seems to fail on that note, Gaf. It's not that I don't understand, because as an economics major, I do...but your taking something PROJECTED to happen, and stating it as absolute fact. Thats like saying Rev is projected to take a piss tomorrow at 2 pm....doesn't mean it's absolute fact.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

because as an economics major,

then you should understand that this level of spending without a proportional growth of GDP is either a sign of complete ignorance or stupidity.

[ttogreh]

Gaf...

First, you asserted that the massive spending is utterly unworkable due to the fact that the economy will shrink in the coming year.

Then, you compare sixteen years of economic fact to one year of economic projection.

I call you on that utter act of disingenuity.

You come back with a source that projects a shrinking economy in one year, and a growing economy in the year after that. Your own source contradicts your assertion.

I harshly dismiss your poorly thought out argument.

You whine about me attacking your character.

I wouldn't be able to so viciously attack your character if you actually presented a coherent, logical argument that would not be dismissed by anyone with an I.Q. over 80, Gaf.

Either try harder, or get used to us dancing like this over and over again. You know, the more you do this sort of thing, the more credence is given to people that believe you don't actually believe the bullshit that you are spewing.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Is your infatuation with me ever going to end? It's really not healthy. It's keeping you from ever having any meaningful contribution to the conversations.

I think I'm going to have to put you on ignore until you learn how to behave in social situations.

[ttogreh]

Yeah, that will really stop me from pointing out the emperor is naked, Gaf... Your fingers in your ears going "I can't hear you!"...

[Slogo]

lol....while I appreciate the cheers, I gotta say that, while I see your point of view, the legalization of drugs is a dangerous thing. I can understand pot...I mean it's pot....it's not by far the most dangerous thing out there, but there is something to be said for the whole theory of "well...you legalized pot...why can't you legalize cocaine? or Meth? or Heroin?" and thats when it gets dangerous.

The biggiest problem with legalizing drugs, weather it be pot or something else, is that your talking about legalizing a mind altering substance with no real regulation on it (I know, I know....booze...I know), but lets look at all the problems WITH booze...and now apply that to legalized drugs, such as if pot became legal.

I just seen this one and you know better than most that I'd like to weigh in on this one Rhodes

I've done my share of illicit substances. Actually, I've done a few peoples shares of illicit substances. The biggest problem with it is that it attempts to legislate peoples tastes. People who wanna do coke or heroin are going to do it regardless of whether or not it's illegal. And the people who don't wanna do it still won't.

I mean who, that has been posting on this topic, would do heroin if it were made legal today?

...maybe if I needed a root canal (I have horrible teeth).

I don't do drugs anymore but if there is one set of rights that nobody should take away, it's rights over your own body.

And for good measure, let's throw prostitution in there too.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Slogo

[IsleofRhodesEnt]

then you should understand that this level of spending without a proportional growth of GDP is either a sign of complete ignorance or stupidity.

that I do....but we're also talking the fact that we are looking at MASS spending in a short period to time to stave off another Great Depression. It will take some time for the GDP to catch up. It's not a sign of ignorance or stupidity...but it can be seen as such to those that don't understand what is happening.

again....do not take PROJECTED numbers as fact...EVER....cuz a monkey wrench can get tossed in last minute and knock those numbers loose.

They projected a really good stock market when the crash this last year hit too....so much for projections.

[Rev.Reverence]

that I do....but we're also talking the fact that we are looking at MASS spending in a short period to time to stave off another Great Depression. It will take some time for the GDP to catch up. It's not a sign of ignorance or stupidity...but it can be seen as such to those that don't understand what is happening.

again....do not take PROJECTED numbers as fact...EVER....cuz a monkey wrench can get tossed in last minute and knock those numbers loose.

They projected a really good stock market when the crash this last year hit too....so much for projections.

I really remember there being a crash forcasted this year...

...late last year or yearlyer this year...yeah...I am certain...very certain...it was a finance dude on Daily show.

I don't think it was the yelling guy (Mad Money?)....it was some REALLY straight laced dude.

[IsleofRhodesEnt]

I really remember there being a crash forcasted this year...

...late last year or yearlyer this year...yeah...I am certain...very certain...it was a finance dude on Daily show.

I don't think it was the yelling guy (Mad Money?)....it was some REALLY straight laced dude.

ohhh....then we have a working model on this, don't we? IF there is no crash...then it proves my "don't take projections as fact" statements, wouldn't it.

Economics are like weather....we can tell ya one thing...but we keep changing it every day....and then last minute...BAM...gotcha!!

[Rev.Reverence]

ohhh....then we have a working model on this, don't we? IF there is no crash...then it proves my "don't take projections as fact" statements, wouldn't it.

Economics are like weather....we can tell ya one thing...but we keep changing it every day....and then last minute...BAM...gotcha!!

Chill out dude! Have an herbal tea...

I thought you were saying they had projected a "good" year this year...you don't have to shove you model at me...

I have a perfectly good one here for you...

.....you, gaf, & t...& anyone elce talkin' here...will probably never do shit with all tyhis argueing & bitching about what is right & wrong to do...MEANWHILE.....THEY.....are taking over.

Thanx for bein' ****** first thing in the morning. I was just sayin' some shit I heard in RESPONSE. not argument.

Not everything has to be an argument...

Edited April 29, 2009 by torn asunder
removal of *attitude* - play nice, damnit!

[phee]

I like tea...