This is why NAFTA needs to go

[Tacohitts]

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2009/0...bf605953844.txt

give it some time, every job in this country will be gone,and yes they can run a fast food joint with robots as well,anyway to ever keep from hiring anyone.

I think every CEO of any of these corporations should be exiled to the the same country as well to where they moved the company.

[candyman]

I have seen the work that was done at American Axle...I have also seen the very tight specifications set by the industry...they cannot remain unless they make some big changes. Yes, humans can still do the work but if people want to push for fuel efficient vehicles at a decent price then robots WILL have to step in. The deaths of many of these plants are due to many factors...government regulation, the idiot consumers, the stupid union workers, and the stupid bosses of the stupid union workers. The government puts for strict specifications, the company tries to meet them, and then the general public screws it all up with their inablility to properly use a vehicle which calls for very expensive parts to be made to protect the consumer and to meet the government regulation. Show me a human that can help in any way with many of these parts...

[angry_darkness]

Do the robots make the robots or do humans make them. maybe robots will take over the world and destroy all humans and animals. Oh sorry, I was having a flashback from the Terminator movie.

[ttogreh]

American Axle is desperate to keep GM as its buyer. GM does not "need" to make cars out of steel, you know.

Aluminum doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and can be engineered to be just as safe as steel. It's also the most abundant metal on earth. Carbon fiber can be made out of biogenic carbon.

Let American Axle leave. Let's make cars that will last.

[Scary Guy]

I think every CEO of any of these corporations should be exiled to the the same country as well to where they moved the company.

Yeah, that's a great idea, where every one of their dollars becomes worth 10. Those countries are so poor they could live like... well they already live like kings, but then they could live like emperors and just buy the country outright.

Do the robots make the robots or do humans make them.

Obviously the humans make the first robots and then make robots that make other robots. However one of the laws of the 7 laws of robotics states "The Procreation Law: A robot may not take any part in the design or manufacture of a robot unless the new robot's actions are subject to the Laws of Robotics".

American Axle is desperate to keep GM as its buyer. GM does not "need" to make cars out of steel, you know.

Aluminum doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and can be engineered to be just as safe as steel. It's also the most abundant metal on earth. Carbon fiber can be made out of biogenic carbon.

Let American Axle leave. Let's make cars that will last.

Oh they don't need to, they HAVE TO. If you buy a new car and it does not rust then what need do you have to go out and buy another new car? DMC made their cars out of stainless steel because it didn't cost much more than regular steel. They also made them primer gray so you could paint them however you wanted.

We could make perfect machines, but then we wouldn't need repair men to fix them or to make more to keep the money flowing into the company's coffers.

[ttogreh]

Aluminum has a limited fatigue point, and carbon fiber does not last forever. The point I was trying to make was that American Axle is 100 per cent materials oriented, while GM, Ford, Chrysler and the new start-ups are design and customer oriented, or at least they should be.

Cars are made out of steel because, steel rusts. Which guarantees people will need to buy a new car.

Until someone figures out how to make exotic materials cost efficient, and is also able to make money on the back-end, that is customer loyalty, instead of the front-end, which is customer purchase.

Let's say Tesla can make money off of its Roadster and its Model S. Let's say it expands into fleet production instead of just the niche market. The roadster is made out of fiberglass for the body, and its frame is extruded aluminum.

Tesla is selling home solar panels, and the battery pack probably will last for seven to ten years.

Now, I could buy a replacement battery pack from anyone, or I could buy it from Tesla, with a competitive warranty, and a discount.

You see what I am trying to say to you here, Scary Guy?

[Scary Guy]

Aluminum has a limited fatigue point, and carbon fiber does not last forever. The point I was trying to make was that American Axle is 100 per cent materials oriented, while GM, Ford, Chrysler and the new start-ups are design and customer oriented, or at least they should be.

Cars are made out of steel because, steel rusts. Which guarantees people will need to buy a new car.

Until someone figures out how to make exotic materials cost efficient, and is also able to make money on the back-end, that is customer loyalty, instead of the front-end, which is customer purchase.

Let's say Tesla can make money off of its Roadster and its Model S. Let's say it expands into fleet production instead of just the niche market. The roadster is made out of fiberglass for the body, and its frame is extruded aluminum.

Tesla is selling home solar panels, and the battery pack probably will last for seven to ten years.

Now, I could buy a replacement battery pack from anyone, or I could buy it from Tesla, with a competitive warranty, and a discount.

You see what I am trying to say to you here, Scary Guy?

Not really no, or at least not how it relates to forcing the consumer to buy new products.

The consumer is stupid so you sell them the extended warranty and they don't buy it (most never do). Then something goes wrong and there is no extended coverage. 12 days later it breaks and they either say alright to keep your continued business or they're dicks about it and you take your business elsewhere because the customer is always right, and therefore spoiled.

In this market you have to fight for the customer's business and they'll hold onto money tighter than ever. My car is rusting because that's what it was designed to do. I either get it repaired or get a new one, either way someone will make some money.

As far as the battery pack goes it's proprietary with different voltage and connectors on it.

Same thing with the HP ink cartridges and the refill kits not working. They have a chip in them that knows when it's "empty" and will stop working even if you refill it yourself (or they did, I hope they stopped that crap).

In short the customer isn't always right, but he is yours to toy with if he buys your product. Then you can sell him all the accessories, upgrade kits, and (if anything breaks, as it's designed to) replacement parts. So if the customer is going to spend all that money fixing the thing why not just buy a whole new thing.

Leasing is great too, they don't even own the thing after they pay for it.

[anametamystik]

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2009/0...bf605953844.txt

give it some time, every job in this country will be gone,and yes they can run a fast food joint with robots as well,anyway to ever keep from hiring anyone.

I think every CEO of any of these corporations should be exiled to the the same country as well to where they moved the company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat <-- Automated food service not going to happen in the U.S.

As for AA, it's just splendid. About the only positive benefit I can see to it is advancing a proposed rail-with-trail project from the waterfront all the way to the former D.T.R.R. right-of-way. Their corporate headquarters is barely 6 years old.

As for Aluminum versus steel alloys, numbers please. If you're going to play metallurgist, back it up with charts and graphs. You want my crazy automotive idea? Steam. The Doble brothers nearly had it if Abner stopped tinkering with the design. What other car weighs five thousand pounds, has automatic transmission and immense horsepower at 0 rpm, and is capable of 90 miles and 0 to 60 in 15 seconds while nearly silent?

[candyman]

People no longer get rid of their cars because of rust...they get rid of them because they don't take care of their cars at all and bitch about the "expensive" technician repairs.

American Axle sucks anyways...they will only make room for something better.

[TitsMcGee]

American Axle is desperate to keep GM as its buyer. GM does not "need" to make cars out of steel, you know.

Aluminum doesn't rust, is lighter than steel, and can be engineered to be just as safe as steel. It's also the most abundant metal on earth. Carbon fiber can be made out of biogenic carbon.

Let American Axle leave. Let's make cars that will last.

So fuck all the people who work there? There are no jobs in this hell hole of a state anyway, and people are fighting to keep what they have. It's not fair to the American worker to have their jobs shipped off the Mexico just because they'll work for pennies a day.

[candyman]

So fuck all the people who work there? There are no jobs in this hell hole of a state anyway, and people are fighting to keep what they have. It's not fair to the American worker to have their jobs shipped off the Mexico just because they'll work for pennies a day.

Hey, I do feel bad for the workers and all, but it has happened to me too. The problem is that American manufacturing companies are not at all willing it branch out and work with different materials or methods. Part of it is the fact that they are too afraid to lose business...and the other part is that they would have to conduct huge training sessions to get their workers up to speed...that means they would have to make up for years of training methods that they never bothered to put into place. The Japanese and other countries are not stealing the auto industry, they are just advancing their markets the right ways. If a foreign company wanted to produce the Volt they would not say anything until it was PERFECT and they would test multiple manufacturing methods and conduct multiple test before even telling the public about it. GM...really fucked up...they should know better than to release sub-part vehicles to the public without giving them a whole shit ton of testing.

I want American companies to be all good...but after visiting Dodge and GM plants around the area all I can say is they better get their shit together fast because it looked like 1990 in those places...and when Dodge said that they are hoping for help from Fiat I just about lost it.

[Rev.Reverence]

So fuck all the people who work there? There are no jobs in this hell hole of a state anyway, and people are fighting to keep what they have. It's not fair to the American worker to have their jobs shipped off the Mexico just because they'll work for pennies a day.

..they have no love for me.

...from the top to the bottom...US car makers are money grubbers...I was speakin' with an ex-union guy...union has evolved into another corporation dude...it is their own damned fault demanding $20/hour.....it is the Big3 that sent the jobs out...& it was the middle management not havin' enough balls to speak up when they see that it is destroying the company...it is the lunch lady's fault for not slippin' the corrupt bastards cyanyde...where's HH when you need her famous cookies recipe?

<not quite half kidding>

[ttogreh]

Not really no, or at least not how it relates to forcing the consumer to buy new products.

The consumer is stupid so you sell them the extended warranty and they don't buy it (most never do). Then something goes wrong and there is no extended coverage. 12 days later it breaks and they either say alright to keep your continued business or they're dicks about it and you take your business elsewhere because the customer is always right, and therefore spoiled.

In this market you have to fight for the customer's business and they'll hold onto money tighter than ever. My car is rusting because that's what it was designed to do. I either get it repaired or get a new one, either way someone will make some money.

As far as the battery pack goes it's proprietary with different voltage and connectors on it.

Same thing with the HP ink cartridges and the refill kits not working. They have a chip in them that knows when it's "empty" and will stop working even if you refill it yourself (or they did, I hope they stopped that crap).

In short the customer isn't always right, but he is yours to toy with if he buys your product. Then you can sell him all the accessories, upgrade kits, and (if anything breaks, as it's designed to) replacement parts. So if the customer is going to spend all that money fixing the thing why not just buy a whole new thing.

Leasing is great too, they don't even own the thing after they pay for it.

I apologize for the late response. Any way, let me try to further expand and revise my comments.

The thing about electric cars is that although they are quite sophisticated, they are also very simple. There's the battery, the wire harness, the electric motors, and the body.

A fiberglass body with an aluminum frame will look damn near brand new after seven years of use. The electric motors won't be anywhere near wearing out, the wire harness will be in pretty good shape. So, the one single point of failure is the battery pack. After seven years, especially with the battery industry ramping up, replacing that will be the big service sector with battery electric vehicles.

"Proprietary" does not mean shit when you are talking about batteries. Here's the relevant bit from wikipedia.

Tesla Motors refers to the Roadster's battery pack as the Energy Storage System or ESS. The ESS contains 6,831 lithium ion cells arranged into 11 "sheets" connected in series; each sheet contains 9 "bricks" connected in series; each "brick" contains 69 cells connected in parallel (11S 9S 69P). The cells are 18 mm (0.71 in) in diameter and 65 mm (2.6 in) long (18650 form-factor); this type of lithium-ion cell is also found in most laptop computer batteries.The pack is designed to prevent catastrophic cell failures from propagating to adjacent cells, even when the cooling system is off. Coolant is pumped continuously through the ESS both when the car is running and when the car is turned off if the pack retains more than a 90% charge. The coolant pump draws 146 watts.

They are just regular lithium ion cells. It will be the same thing for the Chevy Volt, and for any other third-generation battery-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle.

So, Tesla has a choice... it can either offer to replace the battery pack at or near cost with a good warranty, or it can lose out to third-party mechanics that can order the replacement pack directly from the manufacturers, who don't give a fuck if they sell to Tesla or to Autozone.

Battery Electric cars and Plug-in Hybrids will simply have to be made to last. The reason is the same reason Toyota and Honda gained so much of GM, Ford, and Chrysler's market share over the years: the product was simply more durable and reliable than the competition. That trend will not reverse: as you said, the customer is spoiled.

As far as HP and their shit-tacular printer ink cartridges, Kodak has all of this photo ink, and no way to sell it, so they have gone in to the printer business. Their printers are just as good as HP's, and their printer ink is cheaper.

The free market is working. There are (potential) winners like Tesla, losers like American Axle, and old order companies like Kodak and GM that may just make it still.