School prayer charges stir protests

[TitsMcGee]

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

There have been yard signs, T-shirts and a mass student protest during graduation ceremonies this spring on behalf of Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and school athletic director Robert Freeman, who will go on trial Sept. 17 at a federal district court in Pensacola for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union.

"I have been defending religious freedom issues for 22 years, and I've never had to defend somebody who has been charged criminally for praying," said Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, the Orlando-based legal group that is defending the two school officials. An ACLU official said the school district has allowed "flagrant" violations of the First Amendment for years.

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

The fight involving the ACLU, the school district and several devout Christian employees began last August when the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events such as graduations, orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services, and "proselytizing" students during class and after school.

In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said.

In response, many members of the 300-plus-member student body taped crosses to their mortarboards and stood for an impromptu recitation of the Lord's Prayer during the ceremony.

Mr. Mach responded, "We believe students have the constitutional right to pray voluntarily in public or private. Constitutional problems arise only when public school officials promote or endorse prayer or specific religious views."

The criminal charges, which carry up to a $5,000 fine and a six-month jail term, originated with a Jan. 28 incident in which Mr. Lay, a deacon at a local Baptist church, asked Mr. Freeman to offer mealtime prayers at a lunch for school employees and booster-club members who had helped with a school field-house project.

Mr. Staver said no students were present at the event, which was held on school property but after school hours.

"He wasn't thinking he was violating an order," he said. "Neither did the athletic director. He was asked to pray and so he did."

Mr. Mach said the event was during the school day and that Mr. Lay, the school's principal, has said in writing that students were present.

"Decisions about the religious upbringing of children should be left in the hands of parents, not school officials," he said. As to whether prayer constitutes "religious upbringing," he said, "If school officials were promoting non-majority faiths and religious viewpoints, I suspect there'd be an uproar."

The ACLU brought the matter to the attention of U.S. District Court Judge M. Casey Rodgers, who issued a contempt order for the two men.

Meanwhile, members of the small community of Milton, Fla., where Pace High School is located, have contributed more than $10,000 toward a legal defense fund for the defendants.

Anti-ACLU T-shirts are also being sold and the proceeds donated.

Judge Rodgers' order also included Michelle Winkler, a clerical assistant who was attending a school district event in February with other school employees at a local naval base. There, she asked her husband to offer a blessing for a meal, says the ACLU, adding that students were present and led the Pledge of Allegiance.

"She didn't do the blessing; she asked somebody to do it," Mr. Staver said. "The ACLU is sending people to school to monitor things happening on campus and see if there is anything encouraging religious activity, then running to the court if they see anything."

Her trial, which could result in a fine, is scheduled for Aug. 21.

You know this might be a small town thing, but when I graduated high school there was a preacher there giving a prayer at the beginning of the ceremony. There is one every year, from all different denominations. I don't think anyone has ever complained, not even the Jehovah Witnesses. I think the ACLU has kinda screwed the pooch on this one.

[AstralCrux]

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

Seriously, they should be glad I didn't go to that highschool. I would have spent all 4 years protesting every last religious bit in the handbook. I hope they do serve jail time because the poor kids that aren't Christian are being discriminated against. High School is hard enough to deal with without religious discrimination.

[drcarstairs]

Concerning prayer and use of Church Venues:

I agree, this is insane. We had prayer before every football game, also differing denominations and (on several occasions remember it was the early 80s in the DEEP South) we had a Rabbi. I always thought it was nice, harmless.

On proselytizing in class:

No, against decorum even if it isnt illegal. Choices must be made freely, sans any kind of coercion. Educators who violate this should be warned, fined, censured, and (if they do not cease) terminated.

Teachers handbook:

Yep, that phrase should be removed. Just drop the Christian and it would probably be okay.

As for separate events for Christian students:

I thought there was some kind of thing about that in the Constitution. Freedom of Association I think. Why yes, there it is:

http://tinyurl.com/6as4v

Imagine an event you wish to participate in is advertised on a flyer, and some of those fliers end up in a school. Imagine a teacher at that school is a participant in the event (maybe they play in a band during their free time). Should that teacher be fired or jailed? No. Then the same goes for the Christians. Let them go and have their little pious masturbatory jerk-off how does that harm you? Hell, gives them someplace to go away from you thats win-win in my book.

Not letting the Class President speak at Graduation:

Oh the HORROR! Shes CHRISTIAN! She MIGHT say something RELIGIOUS!

Oh the Humanity! Minerva Save us!

I think stuff like that is also mentioned in the Constitution. Oh yes, the same First Amendment that protects assembly protects religion and speech! But we cannot allow THE CHILDREN to be exposed to something like this! Save them!

On Protesting:

If that’s how you want to spend you time, go for it. You could have a wonderful future in politics. I oppose the Government censuring and jailing people, not private protests. Now this is a case of Government censuring Government, and some of the points are valid – but some are asinine.

Frankly, rather than protesting, I would rather have kinky sex and sacrifice a few goats – but I’m funny that way.

Well, I must be off. So many people to annoy, so little time.

Edited August 16, 2009 by drcarstairs

[jynxxxedangel]

Let them go and have their little pious masturbatory jerk-off

:rofl: You kill me, Doc.

..I'm already going to hell, if anything the Pentacostal Apostolic preacher at that tent revival years ago said is true.

[candyman]

Wow...we have to put down a red carpet when any other religion wants to do something but if the Christians make a move we go ape shit...yes I do believe people can start to burn those "coexist" stickers now.

Most of the highschools in my area that were in my conference and still are in the same conference still allow their students and facutly to say prayers and practice religious freedom any time that they want to...that includes all religions and the schools are a mix of public and private schools...we are still waiting for someone in the conference to complain.

Seriously...if lawn ornaments, titles for holidays, and various individuals in silent or quiet refection which you could easily ignore are getting so many people riled up that we have to hit the court system them humanity really is getting dumber as a whole.

[Reaper]

Personally, I am spiritual but not religious. This country was founded on the ideals, but I guess things change too much and this country will just become a haven for the evil and unlawful. In my opinion, we have become too much of a melting pot to where our founders would be ashamed. Our own laws are being used against us and its already starting to be so by the terrorists or those representing the terrorists. Hell, this country gives more breaks and incentives to other religions before our country's own. Won't be long before we lose any kind of personality or identity as a country.

[jynxxxedangel]

Personally, I am spiritual but not religious. This country was founded on the ideals, but I guess things change too much and this country will just become a haven for the evil and unlawful. In my opinion, we have become too much of a melting pot to where our founders would be ashamed. Our own laws are being used against us and its already starting to be so by the terrorists or those representing the terrorists. Hell, this country gives more breaks and incentives to other religions before our country's own. Won't be long before we lose any kind of personality or identity as a country.

Hell, look at the welfare benefits that the well-off newcomers are receiving. My mother lives in a subsidised building, and she says there are TONS of immigrants who drive nice cars, and wear nice clothes, living there. They get free food, tax breaks, and monetary hand-outs from the good old gov't, and they don't need them. They are totally milking the system. There are people who have lived here their entire lives, who aren't as well-off as they are, and aren't getting ANYTHING. I think it's pretty sad, when there are Hummers parked outside of the projects. This totally parallels the "religious freedom" thing. It all makes me VERY angry.

[AstralCrux]

I've got no issues with the students praying, wearing insanely large crosses, or creating an after school group. I had no issues with it before. The dilemma is that there are school officials on school hours leading or having publicly spoken prayer. The students could all convert to the religion of the flying spaghetti monster for all I care and the students could try to convince everyone that the flying spaghetti monster will save us all! But, not the faculty.

Do I think they should tell the class president not to speak, no, she's a student. She isn't government funded.

I really need to get specific when I respond to these sometimes, but it upsets me to no end that these adults think they can get away with this. I'm not so strict that I would say we should in any way go as far as France and ban dang near everything. The Jewish kids can't wear skullcaps, the muslims can't wear the scarves, and the Christian kids can't wear large crosses. That's extreme and that prevents their religious freedom.

[Rev.Reverence]

Personally, I am spiritual but not religious. This country was founded on the ideals, but I guess things change too much and this country will just become a haven for the evil and unlawful. In my opinion, we have become too much of a melting pot to where our founders would be ashamed. Our own laws are being used against us and its already starting to be so by the terrorists or those representing the terrorists. Hell, this country gives more breaks and incentives to other religions before our country's own. Won't be long before we lose any kind of personality or identity as a country.

I've got no issues with the students praying, wearing insanely large crosses, or creating an after school group. I had no issues with it before. The dilemma is that there are school officials on school hours leading or having publicly spoken prayer. The students could all convert to the religion of the flying spaghetti monster for all I care and the students could try to convince everyone that the flying spaghetti monster will save us all! But, not the faculty.

Do I think they should tell the class president not to speak, no, she's a student. She isn't government funded.

I really need to get specific when I respond to these sometimes, but it upsets me to no end that these adults think they can get away with this. I'm not so strict that I would say we should in any way go as far as France and ban dang near everything. The Jewish kids can't wear skullcaps, the muslims can't wear the scarves, and the Christian kids can't wear large crosses. That's extreme and that prevents their religious freedom.

Reaper...this is NOT a 'Christian Country'...no where does any document say anything about Christ.

We are, "One Nation, Under God." so to sum it up...^^^THAT is what this country was founded upon...THAT...is an American statement.

We are free to find G*D, (or not) as we each individually see fit.

Public school, as an extension of the governmental powers, (each school funded at a city, state & federal level), can not (nor can their officials: teachers, nurses, principals, lunchlady) make any prayers out loud in public view (be they Muslim, Jew, or Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or Pagan.)

I don't want my kid in that kind of situation, where someone else is tellin' him how to pray...

...or how not to...if I did, I'ld send him to Catholic school...

The matter of aide rendered to immigrants & refugees, does not have ANY bearing on their Religious/Spiritual practices ('cept, if they are into cannibalism, we may have a lil' something to say about THAT.....hehe)

A teacher in comparative religions class...HAS to be VERY non-bias...& for his words in the form of, "over here, they do this." making sure NOT to talk about himself........very hard job...I don't want it.

There is only 1 exception...at an after school club ( with it's own funding) the teacher in charge may do as they will...IF it is privately funded...

Edited August 16, 2009 by Rev.Reverence

[AstralCrux]

Rev. That is one of the many reasons I'm not having kids; I don't trust the system to teach without preaching. Plus I'd probably homeschool my hypothetical kids and wouldn't have the time to do that anytime soon. It's a shame kids can't learn at their own pace, but that's a whole 'nother topic. (My best friends mom is a 1st grade teacher and she got in trouble for teaching her first graders up to a third grade level. What was the second grade teacher supposed to teach them?)

[Rev.Reverence]

Rev. That is one of the many reasons I'm not having kids; I don't trust the system to teach without preaching. Plus I'd probably homeschool my hypothetical kids and wouldn't have the time to do that anytime soon. It's a shame kids can't learn at their own pace, but that's a whole 'nother topic. (My best friends mom is a 1st grade teacher and she got in trouble for teaching her first graders up to a third grade level. What was the second grade teacher supposed to teach them?)

Charter Schools are not so stringent.

[Aloki]

One thing I find hilarious is that the a lot of R rated movies today have nothing on the disturbing content that can be found in the many so called "holy books"

[candyman]

I think that if they are going to act on ANYTHING then they should ban ALL religions from any sort of educational facilities. No student, faculty person, or even visiting parents can display or practice anything relating to their religion. If they really are doing things for the right reasons then it ALL must go...but sadly they will never do that.

And as far as science class goes, well they can just forget teaching Creation AND Evolution until one or the other is proven beyond any doubts and is proven to have some sort of benefits for society that were worth all the money invested. Fucking worthless to sit and teach or study nothing but THEORY when classes like P.E. and Art which can actually help a person are being shut down.

[TygerLili]

Sorry, but this article jumps all over the place to the point where the only way I can respond to it is to quote it.

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

There have been yard signs, T-shirts and a mass student protest during graduation ceremonies this spring on behalf of Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and school athletic director Robert Freeman, who will go on trial Sept. 17 at a federal district court in Pensacola for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union.

"I have been defending religious freedom issues for 22 years, and I've never had to defend somebody who has been charged criminally for praying," said Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, the Orlando-based legal group that is defending the two school officials. An ACLU official said the school district has allowed "flagrant" violations of the First Amendment for years.

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

This should NOT be in the handbook for a public school.

The fight involving the ACLU, the school district and several devout Christian employees began last August when the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events such as graduations, orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services, and "proselytizing" students during class and after school.

What the hell is a separate religiously themed graduation service? Can someone clarify for me? Proselytizing students is wrong. Period. Prayer, other than private, individual prayer, at a school sponsored function should be avoided. In my opinion both of these things contribute to a hostile environment for students, teachers, parents and community members who feel religion should be kept out of public schools.

In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

I don't agree with promoting prayer or one's religious beliefs at a school sponsored event, beyond maybe offering a moment of silence for those who would like to pray to do so silently/privately. I don't really see the problem with holding an event in a church as long as the nature of the event, itself, is secular, and the keepers of the church are fine with it.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said.

This seems ridiculous. Could they not just require her to submit a copy of her speech for review before hand to make sure it contained nothing offensive?

In response, many members of the 300-plus-member student body taped crosses to their mortarboards and stood for an impromptu recitation of the Lord's Prayer during the ceremony.

Mr. Mach responded, "We believe students have the constitutional right to pray voluntarily in public or private. Constitutional problems arise only when public school officials promote or endorse prayer or specific religious views."

I agree students can display religious symbols and pray to whomever they choose.

The criminal charges, which carry up to a $5,000 fine and a six-month jail term, originated with a Jan. 28 incident in which Mr. Lay, a deacon at a local Baptist church, asked Mr. Freeman to offer mealtime prayers at a lunch for school employees and booster-club members who had helped with a school field-house project.

Not a good idea, in my opinion, but not necessarily something deserving of litigation, either. Again, offering a moment of silence before the meal for those who wished to pray silently would have been a better alternative. On the other hand, if anyone was present who objected to the praying, they could have simply spoken up against it.

Mr. Staver said no students were present at the event, which was held on school property but after school hours.

"He wasn't thinking he was violating an order," he said. "Neither did the athletic director. He was asked to pray and so he did."

Mr. Mach said the event was during the school day and that Mr. Lay, the school's principal, has said in writing that students were present.

"Decisions about the religious upbringing of children should be left in the hands of parents, not school officials," he said. As to whether prayer constitutes "religious upbringing," he said, "If school officials were promoting non-majority faiths and religious viewpoints, I suspect there'd be an uproar."

The ACLU brought the matter to the attention of U.S. District Court Judge M. Casey Rodgers, who issued a contempt order for the two men.

Meanwhile, members of the small community of Milton, Fla., where Pace High School is located, have contributed more than $10,000 toward a legal defense fund for the defendants.

Anti-ACLU T-shirts are also being sold and the proceeds donated.

Judge Rodgers' order also included Michelle Winkler, a clerical assistant who was attending a school district event in February with other school employees at a local naval base. There, she asked her husband to offer a blessing for a meal, says the ACLU, adding that students were present and led the Pledge of Allegiance.

"She didn't do the blessing; she asked somebody to do it," Mr. Staver said. "The ACLU is sending people to school to monitor things happening on campus and see if there is anything encouraging religious activity, then running to the court if they see anything."

I can't figure out whether they are talking about a public or private event here, so I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

Her trial, which could result in a fine, is scheduled for Aug. 21.

[TitsMcGee]

What the hell is a separate religiously themed graduation service? Can someone clarify for me? Proselytizing students is wrong. Period. Prayer, other than private, individual prayer, at a school sponsored function should be avoided. In my opinion both of these things contribute to a hostile environment for students, teachers, parents and community members who feel religion should be kept out of public schools.

The only thing I can think of is a graduation mass at a local church. They have one every year at the Catholic church in my town, as most of the kids are Catholic. They are never considered mandatory as there are people who follow different denominations, or are atheist. They have them in most small communities.

Edit to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaureate_service this is what I'm talking about.

Edited August 17, 2009 by TitsMcGee

[candyman]

Oh please would some form of god out there just send the ACLU to whatever hell you can find room in?!

Seriously, the vast majority of this shit rises up when some idiot decides that instead of standing up and talking about their concerns they will wait until later and then run to the cops crying that they were raped by religion. If you are that offended you should maybe grow a pair of balls and take of it like an adult...you are making the crazy religious fringe people look sane! Shit I can't believe how stupid some people are...most christians are like the majority of smokers, if you tell them what you have a problem with they will usually work it out with you in a nice way...sadly people think that their way is always right and that things must change to suit them...

Just for this I am going to go and pray in the middle of the local UW campus...even though I am silent I am damn sure that someone will go out of their way to be offended by me...

[Rev.Reverence]

I think that if they are going to act on ANYTHING then they should ban ALL religions from any sort of educational facilities. No student, faculty person, or even visiting parents can display or practice anything relating to their religion. If they really are doing things for the right reasons then it ALL must go...but sadly they will never do that.

And as far as science class goes, well they can just forget teaching Creation AND Evolution until one or the other is proven beyond any doubts and is proven to have some sort of benefits for society that were worth all the money invested. Fucking worthless to sit and teach or study nothing but THEORY when classes like P.E. and Art which can actually help a person are being shut down.

That's how they did it in, I think Frace...yeah, I heard something about that...^^^

[TitsMcGee]

That's how they did it in, I think France...yeah, I heard something about that...^^^

And it's not working out so well for them. I just read an article about a Muslim woman in France suing a public swimming pool for banning her over her burqini swimwear.

Edited August 17, 2009 by TitsMcGee

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Oh please would some form of god out there just send the ACLU to whatever hell you can find room in?!

Seriously, the vast majority of this shit rises up when some idiot decides that instead of standing up and talking about their concerns they will wait until later and then run to the cops crying that they were raped by religion. If you are that offended you should maybe grow a pair of balls and take of it like an adult...you are making the crazy religious fringe people look sane! Shit I can't believe how stupid some people are...most christians are like the majority of smokers, if you tell them what you have a problem with they will usually work it out with you in a nice way...sadly people think that their way is always right and that things must change to suit them...

Just for this I am going to go and pray in the middle of the local UW campus...even though I am silent I am damn sure that someone will go out of their way to be offended by me...

When I was in high school, the ACLU sued the school on behalf of one of my friends who was suspended for wearing her pentagram. They had been banned, along with many other non-Christian religious symbols (and also certain color combinations and black finger polish) for being "gang symbols". This was one case where I think the ACLU was useful. People did stand up and talk about their concerns, but it didn't do any good - often no one listens to high schoolers in cases like these even though many of us did protest it.

[phee]

When I was in high school, the ACLU sued the school on behalf of one of my friends who was suspended for wearing her pentagram. They had been banned, along with many other non-Christian religious symbols (and also certain color combinations and black finger polish) for being "gang symbols". This was one case where I think the ACLU was useful. People did stand up and talk about their concerns, but it didn't do any good - often no one listens to high schoolers in cases like these even though many of us did protest it.

Its all about which gang has the most power.... in most cases Christians are the largest and most powerful gang, and can decide what others should and should not do.... in some cases though.. that is not true.

[candyman]

The ACLU has to do many more useful things before they become something that we actually need. Nobody really tries to help their own cause anymore so now large groups have to do it.

And who really gives a shit what you can and can't wear to school? IT IS SCHOOL! Shirt, pants, and shoes are all you really need...until college I think that uniforms shouls be mandatory to stop the idiots on both sides of the "cool line" from throwing shit into the fan.

The ACLU is still fairly worthless and just exists to be a pain in the ass for anyone trying to do anything. If you make a decision they will find any sory of racism, sexism, ageism, or any other -ims that you didn't really mean but they will nail you for it. They are trying to get convicted criminals out of jail purely because the stats for their "race" are too high and must be evened out. They are bitching and moaning about how "no human being is illegal"...yeah but their actions can be and they should ansere for them. They are making out police forces useless, they are dividing the people more than they are bringing them together, and they are turning out jails and prisons into some of the finest housing blocks in the world...they really have a warped view of how things are and how things need to be.

Once the ACLU gets their shit together and tries to work towards something good and useful for the common people I will respect them...but as long as they are blaming the deaths of immigrants crossing the border on US officials instead of the horrible traveling conditions and no food or water then they can suck it.

Oh yeah and the ACLU always calls for "religious freedom" which is where they sue you if you do anything religious in public...and then they will turn around and defend someone from another religion for doing the same thing as you.

Edited August 18, 2009 by candyman

[Raev]

They are trying to get convicted criminals out of jail purely because the stats for their "race" are too high and must be evened out.

I can't find anything on this (in the 2 minutes I put into it on a google search).

Reference?

[candyman]

I can't find anything on this (in the 2 minutes I put into it on a google search).

Reference?

Visit their webpage...thats where info on their actions can be found.

[Raev]

Well, after about 10 minutes of "thumbing" through their headlines on their web site I couldn't find anything about releasing convicted criminals just because of the color of their skin.

[candyman]

Well, after about 10 minutes of "thumbing" through their headlines on their web site I couldn't find anything about releasing convicted criminals just because of the color of their skin.

Hope your thumbs don't hurt...sorry I can't help you but its an active case in North Carolina where the ratio of black to whites on death row is "wrong" and they all calling evidence "false" and are asking that prisoners be given reduced sentences because they are being "discriminated" against. Darryl Hunt and his case brought up the issue and now it has taken off in many directions.

And even if this wasn't one their list they still have page after page of useless actions or worthless actions.

Edited August 18, 2009 by candyman