Wellbutrin is awful

[torn asunder]

let's please keep the discussion respectful ok? i know we all feel strongly about our own perspectives, but let's not be dismissive of the others'.

and if we can't keep things from getting personal, please don't reply...

just a friendly little reminder!

[Rayne]

Chronic issues are the driving force behind Me becoming a Holistic practitioner, with the specialization in mental issues.

I have known people who are extremely sick that do very well in a healthy, supportive environment.. Without drugs.

The drugs being pumped into theses people are killing them. {PERIOD}

The liver can only take so much abuse before it fails.

Medication has become a crutch for many people on them.. People just can't "deal" with every day life so they take these drugs to do the coping for them... & Yes, this is a sign of weakness.

I was weak for some time & Got help to be strong again... When I was better, I put down that crutch.

I'm not saying that everyone who takes Meds is abusing them, but most are.

----------------------------------------------------

While I'm ranting, it also disgusts me that these drugs are so accepted as "normal" and OK.. People are putting their children on them. Like people putting their teenagers on antidepressants.. WTF??

Teenagers get depressed, it's called hormones... Shit I have seen people put young children on Meds... Like Ritalin...

I'm sorry, but children are naturally distracted.. They are trying to take everything in, there is just more to take in the modern world. They need guidance & individualized attention. NOT drugs.

**Which supports my ongoing over-population rant**

We teach our children that drugs are bad, except if a Doctor gives them to you.

I just want people to know that there is an alternative..

Treat the body has a whole *Mind, Body, & Spirit*

Again I say, I am in no way saying that all who are on Meds are abusing them, they do have their place.

I just think more people need to recognize that their issues can be helped in other ways.. It seems society has just taken to answering their issues with a pill, and that makes Me very sad.

For the record, this entire post offended me greatly, as my TEN YEAR OLD is on anti-depressants, because she NEEDS THEM. She's also on a strict low sugar diet. DO you think we didn't try all the many diets they have out there to treat ADHD to begin with? That was our first option. Medication was last. We've been through a lot of different psychiatrists because I felt many were just trying to overmedicate my daughter (something I wish to avoid, like the plague). We've been through a few different therapists because they didn't "mesh well" with my daughter and it's important to have a connection with your therapist. I have been through countless training and classes myself both independently and under the advise of her clinitians.

I also have an Autistic son. He is not on medication. He will be 7 in a few weeks. He doesn't need them -- right now. That's not to say he won't in the future, only time will tell.

And we are very aware of the side effects, you wouldn't believe how much I research medication before signing the consent form, and how many I have turned down because I felt the treatment wouldn't benefit next to the lists of downsides. But you really need to put it in perspective as a parent ... what's more important, your child being able to function socially, emotionally and behaviourally (among others, of course), or the possible side effects you may face because of that medication?

And for the multitude of combinations she has been tried on, there are only TWO medications she had side effects to. One was severe and was replaced with a different type and one was very mild and went away in a few days.

What you said above, was very ignorant to the practice of medicine as a whole. Doctors (of all types, and psychiatrists are MD's first) are specfically trained in dealing with these types of things on a daily basis. This is what they do, for YEARS before even becoming a treating physician. This is what they spend their money on their education for. This is what they have to pass strict medical licensing procedures. This is why I trust them with my health, or my children's.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Rayne

[torn asunder]

thread closed.

don't argue, i don't want to hear it...

[phee]

Reopened... not quite sure why it was closed.... (I don't think I saw any breaking of the DGN rules... but maybe I am missing something)

*shrugs*

[torn asunder]

it was closed because at least one post was directly insulting (it has been deleted) and the others are dismissive of others' *opinions* creating an unfriendly, unwelcome environment for discussion.

if people can keep things civil, then by all means continue the "debate". the second it gets personal again, it will be closed.

and phee, next time, check with me, *and wait for my response* before reopening something that's been closed. i've no problem with reopening something, but lets communicate, rather than assume, or dismiss. cool?

[freydis]

One last question.... (because I am honestly curious) Holistic practitioners.... who are they licenced by? Can insurance cover the treatments? Are the treatments recognized by the scientific community as medicinal? (I belive some of them are...)

But again.... who is arguing against proper diet and care that you are disagreeing with? Who is saying they are not not trying to be helped by mind, body, and spirit?

I guess the question depends on what kind of licensed practitioner you're looking for.

I did a little research quickly on the topic, and there is the American Holistic Medical association, but to belong, one first has to be an MD or a DO, and licensed to practice medicine in their state. Other organizations may require far less, however.

The main point others have been trying to make, however, is that while some illnesses can be managed successfully (or in the case of short term illness, like a cold) with holistic therapies, others are a bit beyond the reach of holistic medicine. If its a major illness, a major malfunction of the body which cannot be righted without chemical intervention--sometimes you just have to take your pills in order to take care of the self, to restore wellness. If your brain is not producing enough of a chemical (to a large degree) or far too much, natural therapies are often not enough. To not acknowledge that some may have need of that which you've chosen to go without is rather closed-minded. Many here have acknowledged that holistic medicine has it's place. However, you don't give anyone else the same courtesy; instead, you give backhanded insult. You state modern medicine has its place, but then follow that up with a statement calling those who rely on it "weak". Does that then make a severe diabetic weak, because they rely on insulin? It's not a strong arguement, and it's uncomplimentary to your position. By mentioning the licensing, you also seem to set up an argument from authority--implying that by extension, you are also licensed--but that also fails, because if you're arguing against the opinions of MDs, you're not arguing from a peer position.

While I agree that often these days pills are handed out unnecessarily, and people put more reliance on the unnecessary pills than they should--there are some that need them, and cannot function without them. Those people are not weak, and to assume that eating right and exercising can fix *everyone* is sheer folly. Those folks simply have a brain that is malfunctioning beyond nature's capability to fix. This is why we have modern medicine, and why people rather thankfully live longer these days.

Edited September 9, 2009 by munin218

[Raev]

Since this is reopened -

I'd like to remind mods and members alike that we have a play nice policy in effect. This is in effect for ALL posters on DGN.

I understand people feel strongly about this subject but stay civilized.

[freydis]

Since this is reopened -

I'd like to remind mods and members alike that we have a play nice policy in effect. This is in effect for ALL posters on DGN.

I understand people feel strongly about this subject but stay civilized.

So far, I didnt think it looked too bad. But then, I didnt see whatever got deleted.

[Onyx]

One thing that I really am happy to see is some medical doctors using more holistic methods in their practices. I really think the day may come when patients will begin insisting (I searched a long while myself before I found someone I could be comfortable with discussing "natural" treatments (oh man hope this isn't another can of worms, but there are some meds that are still even now derived from natural substances).

I've had amazing results from what used to be considered alternative medicine but I see more and more these types of things being blended into mainstream medicine. I wish my stubborn migraines would respond more, but I've had little success and I could go through a long list of treatments I've tried so I'm still on expensive shots I really can not afford when the vomiting and pain won't stop.

=======

This whole discussion is a really really tough subject for any group to discuss. Please let's respect each other. None of us really know it all. We may well learn something very useful from our friends

Edited September 9, 2009 by Onyx

[freydis]

One thing that I really am happy to see is some medical doctors using more holistic methods in their practices. I really think the day may come when patients will begin insisting (I searched a long while myself before I found someone I could be comfortable with discussing "natural" treatments (oh man hope this isn't another can of worms, but there are some meds that are still even now derived from natural substances).

I've had amazing results from what used to be considered alternative medicine but I see more and more these types of things being blended into mainstream medicine. I wish my stubborn migraines would respond more, but I've had little success and I could go through a long list of treatments I've tried so I'm still on expensive shots I really can not afford when the vomiting and pain won't stop.

=======

This whole discussion is a really really tough subject for any group to discuss. Please let's respect each other. None of us really know it all. We may well learn something very from our friends

I had a doc who did both. Regular meds and therapies, and holistic ones. This isnt for depression though, its for my digestive/biliary system. They're still not certain what the hell is going on in my insides though, and it didn't help. :/ I wish it had been something as simple as probiotics (which is what he had me try)....and if it were something as simple as diet changes (also been trying), I'm scared to know what I'd be allowed to eat. Pretty much *everything* sets it off these days.... only thing thats helped with some of it is thankfully a rather benign drug. The pain though? That's a different story... :/

Edited September 9, 2009 by munin218

[Oh_My_Goth]

I was not trying to offend anyone directly.. I don't know any of you all that well & I have no right to say what you should do with yourself, or your children.

I was not.. I was just trying to get people to recognize a different way of doing things.

I do however have my own opinions & I will stick to them, if my opinions offend anyone that is not my fault.

This is why I generally stay off the serious side of the boards.

[Rev.Reverence]

Wow...let me state, for the record...that in the cold-hearted-Nietzscheian sense...those that NEED anything other than food, water, shelter, & human contact...are in fact, weak. Mentally, emotionally, physically, or spiritually...it does not matter, weak, means not strong...

(Myself included, I NEED cigarettes, & don't wish to repeat this experiment with the coffee.)

You called me "disgusting" for treating my psychotic daughter with medication ... when that has been the only thing (along WITH therapy) that has HELPED her.

Rayne...please, believe, O_M_G was NOT even referring to you & your children...she DIRECTLY was referring to ME...as a child, I had 2 rejects, who thought they needed more control over me. What was REALLY wrong, was that they wanted a life, you don't get a life as a parent, not till after the kids are taken care of...they had me on tons of the Ritalin, for 7 years...have the ticks & twitches to prove it. They DESTROYED my nervous system....& still, never gave me the attention I required....yet, found the time to produce 2 more children, whom, might I add, ended up QUITE more fucked up than I did.

MAYBE, next time you are SO offended, you make a quick PM for clarification.

Everybody else...MDs do NOT know as much as you think they do...there is SO MUCH, that they still 'think', 'conject', 'theorize' & 'just plain don't know'...not to mention, the several things, they are plain WRONG about......I've been told, by them, to my face, several times.

Thank you...that is all.

[Tacohitts]

IMO I think most of these mental issues which have been rising a lot more are probably caused by chemical bs and growth hormones mandated in food produced here,we are a chemical nation,anyone who defends and believes in huge unfit corrupt corporations in this country are part of the problem not the solution,(PS not directed at anyone here)I still think chemicals in everything we eat are a contributer to mental issues.

[phee]

I do agree.... diet has a lot to do with mental health

[Rayne]

IMO I think most of these mental issues which have been rising a lot more are probably caused by chemical bs and growth hormones mandated in food produced here,we are a chemical nation,anyone who defends and believes in huge unfit corrupt corporations in this country are part of the problem not the solution,(PS not directed at anyone here)I still think chemicals in everything we eat are a contributer to mental issues.

I have seen cases of ADHD where the cause was nutritional. For some reason a child wasn't getting a well balanced diet. Put them on a well balanced diet and instantly cured. I have also seen this with food allergies and sensitivities. I'm totally not disagreeing, I know our psychiatrists always tried that route first, with no success.

[pomba gira]

The main point others have been trying to make, however, is that while some illnesses can be managed successfully (or in the case of short term illness, like a cold) with holistic therapies, others are a bit beyond the reach of holistic medicine. If its a major illness, a major malfunction of the body which cannot be righted without chemical intervention--sometimes you just have to take your pills in order to take care of the self, to restore wellness. If your brain is not producing enough of a chemical (to a large degree) or far too much, natural therapies are often not enough. To not acknowledge that some may have need of that which you've chosen to go without is rather closed-minded. Many here have acknowledged that holistic medicine has it's place. However, you don't give anyone else the same courtesy; instead, you give backhanded insult. You state modern medicine has its place, but then follow that up with a statement calling those who rely on it "weak". Does that then make a severe diabetic weak, because they rely on insulin? It's not a strong arguement, and it's uncomplimentary to your position.

While I agree that often these days pills are handed out unnecessarily, and people put more reliance on the unnecessary pills than they should--there are some that need them, and cannot function without them. Those people are not weak, and to assume that eating right and exercising can fix *everyone* is sheer folly. Those folks simply have a brain that is malfunctioning beyond nature's capability to fix. This is why we have modern medicine, and why people rather thankfully live longer these days.

+999

The most effective healers use combinations of approaches-- Western, Asian, Holistic... and carefully weigh what is going to work best in each situation. As I see it, the black & white, either/or attitude is putting ideology ahead of people and their needs. And I have very little tolerance for that... I have seen too many children leading lives of constant frustration and alienation because their parents "don't believe in" medications... but can't be bothered to seek out (or stick with) any other approach.

This whole mindset of "this system is not perfect and is abused by some people, therefore it's evil and we should have nothing to do with it" seems to be particularly American, and gets applied to a wide array of things, not just western medicine. I honestly don't see that way of thinking among people from other places. IMHO it's one of the main things that keeps us from creating a better world for everyone.

[Rayne]

I fully agree that medication is overused. I think there are a great deal of children and adults out there that do not need the medication, but for some reason are prescribed by a PCP, who isn't trained in psychiatry or was just put on them because the doctor didn't want to research other things. Or even their conditions are episodic and are being treated as chronic or clinical. I'm not saying that it is not overused. I think it is.

BUT --

I can't ignore the fact that there are people (both children and adults) that DO need the medication to live a stable balanced life and medication is the best course of treatment for them (along with other things like diet, exercise and therapy, of course). And some of that is needed long term to maintain balance.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Rayne

[bean]

Total thread jack, but I just read Rayne's signature and I'm seriously laughing my ass off.

/end thread jack.

[Rayne]

Total thread jack, but I just read Rayne's signature and I'm seriously laughing my ass off.

/end thread jack.

True stories ... all of it. Never a dull moment around here.

I had more, but it was starting to get too long.

[Rev.Reverence]

Disorder = A disease or medical problem is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.

I don't like this word...I move to strike it from use. To close of a connotation to:

dis⋅or⋅der

  /dɪsˈɔrdər/

–noun

1. lack of order or regular arrangement; confusion

My backing....that, since ADD & ADHD are SO widely spread...that, this medical definition is out dated.

(It being no longer abnormal, but, actually quite normal nowadays.)

Likewise...that the so called 'bi-polar-disorder'...be changed back to the formerly used 'manic-depression'...it has an order to it...a DEFINITE order.

FURTHERMORE..."Autism is a brain development disorder "...is some big ole' load of shit...I've known several Autistics..they quite generally have VERY ordered heads...just, in a different order...have you had one on a scheduled activity they enjoy (or, even not sometimes, they can just be used to it, like, brushing their teeth RIGHT before they goto bed...not 5 or 10 minutes RIGHT BEFORE {yeah, there's a story to that one}), & tried to change the plans? not fuckin' pretty...

SO...I coin a new word today.....DIFORDER...from different & order.

_{Thank you, that is all.}

Edited September 9, 2009 by Rev.Reverence

[Rayne]

I don't like this word...I move to strike it from use. To close of a connotation to:

My backing....that, since ADD & ADHD are SO widely spread...that, this medical definition is out dated.

(It being no longer abnormal, but, actually quite normal nowadays.)

Likewise...that the so called 'bi-polar-disorder'...be changed back to the formerly used 'manic-depression'...it has an order to it...a DEFINITE order.

FURTHERMORE..."Autism is a brain development disorder "...is some big ole' load of shit...I've known several Autistics..they quite generally have VERY ordered heads...just, in a different order...

SO...I coin a new word today.....DIFORDER...from different & order.

_{Thank you, that is all.}

Autism of that form is called Asperger's Syndrome -- that is what my son has. It falls high on the Autism Spectrum and most Aspies are high functioning and some can even function with limited to on their own as adults.

And I fail to see how your are reading the two separate definitions of "disorder" as being too closely related. They are very different.

A medical definition citing specific signs and symptoms vs. a lack of order .... they aren't the same.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Rayne

[Rev.Reverence]

The words, are spelled the same...I don't like it...the more unintellectual in society (you know they are there) can not tell the difference.. you see?

...& no, they were Autistic children...you know, the ones (pardon me) that mostly look the same in the face, as each other...did not really have another way to say that

[Rayne]

The words, are spelled the same...I don't like it...the more unintellectual in society (you know they are there) can not tell the difference.. you see?

...& no, they were Autistic children...you know, the ones (pardon me) that mostly look the same in the face, as each other...did not really have another way to say that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum

There are many different forms of Autism now. Remember the big "Autism Epidemic" about two years ago where everyone was panicking that the Autism rate had DRASTICALLY risen? What most people didn't know is that the only reason it SEEMED like the numbers were going up is they redid the classifications and created the Autism Spectrum. The number of cases of TRUE Autism (which is normally lower functioning and can not function in the outside world without considerable help) has stayed pretty steady.

Even off those three branches listed in the Wiki site, there are more.

Also, any diagnosis prior to the creation of the Spectrum, about 2 years ago, would simply be diagnosed as "Autistic" and not classified low or high functioning as it is today.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Rayne

[Rev.Reverence]

Yeah...I dig what you're sayin'...but, they were low, to very low...'cept the algebra they liked playing with algebra with the blocks...I 'worked' as an aide to the teachers & staff at a hospital I was at in my teens...& also aided the very young Autistics when I was in 6th grade Sp-ed-class...I too, know what I am talking about.

Did this make the sense to you though?

The words, are spelled the same...I don't like it...the more unintellectual in society (you know they are there) can not tell the difference.. you see?

[Rayne]

Yeah...I dig what you're sayin'...but, they were low, to very low...'cept the algebra they liked playing with algebra with the blocks...I 'worked' as an aide to the teachers & staff at a hospital I was at in my teens...& also aided the very young Autistics when I was in 6th grade Sp-ed-class...I too, know what I am talking about.

Did this make the sense to you though?

My mother is an employee (18 years and counting, more than that if you count her subbing before hire) to one of Wayne County's only school specifically for Autistic children. She has had classrooms from high functioning (Asperger's Syndrome and some PDD-NOS) to low functioning (ASD and PDD-NOS). Her current classroom is mixed this year, which they haven't done in the past.

So there was no real lack of information when my son was diagnosed in 2006. I had already known a lot about it from helping in Mom's classrooms through the years.

I think in your first statement you were confusing Autism and other ASD's (Autism Spectrum Disorders) as I was saying Down's Syndrome ... that's a whole different thing entirely.

Homonyms are a part of the English language, there's nothing wrong with them ... especially as pertaining to a medical definition and a non medical definition.