DGN Night at CC, December 5th aftermath

[torn asunder]

I do appreciate other peoples input.

understood - that part was directed towards saint!

Edited December 8, 2009 by torn asunder

[StormKnight (1)]

I know the DJs in the scene are working their tails off. I know that they do get a lot a requests, and that there are still a lot of people that are requesting songs some of us feel are less than desirable. Trying to get a lot of requests, get new music into the system, making the mixes/fades, and keeping the floor hopping is a lot of effort, a bit of luck, and a lot of art. (decades ago, another lifetime, I tried my hand at this. It is definitely NOT easy.)

It is a combination of both us as a group (let's face it, some of us ask for the same thing repeatedly week after week,) and a lot of other people at the club (we aren't the only ones being addressed.)

Now, instead of general statements of the night's music being less than desirable, let's be CIVIL, and let the DJs know, instead of music we don't want to hear, let them know music we WANT to hear more. Remember, they can't satisfy everyone. I am glad they are online and will respond.

Music takes up a lot of the scene, as a common link between a lot of us (I know I stand out in a lot of crowds by very normal, but the music is something we can discuss.) We have a nice opportunity to talk to our DJs here, as there aren't many places I know ofthat DJs/club goes can interact like this.

So, be CIVIL, POLITE, and SPECIFIC about what you WANT to hear.

EDIT: Sorry, torn. I did want to get my appreciation out there for our scene's DJs.

Edited December 8, 2009 by StormKnight

[torn asunder]

I know for myself that I try to introduce newer stuff into my sets so that way it opens up people at the clubs musical variety. I know not everyone is going to like every song, I understand that. I just wish that people would be more open to different types.

if i may, it seems that the few people who elaborated were 'complaining" that the songs all sounded the same (all one type/style of sound); not so much that it was new stuff, but that there wasn't enough "style" variety, for lack of a better term. not being an expert in this genre, i have no idea if there are enough new artists with relatively different sound styles or not, but that might be a place to start!?

of course, since i wasn't there i have no idea, and i may be reading too much into things, or putting words in others' mouths, but that's the impression i got...

[TheOsakaKoneko]

I am just speaking my opinion and this by no means reflects the opinion of anyone else.

I know that most people request the same songs over and over, when those songs get played other people claim that those songs are overplayed. But yet people only seem to dance to those same songs. At one point those songs were new and people were complaining about too much "new stuff" being played.

I know for myself that I try to introduce newer stuff into my sets so that way it opens up people at the clubs musical variety. I know not everyone is going to like every song, I understand that. I just wish that people would be more open to different types.

I hate to say it, but "the scene" is changing, along with that change, music changes. Artists that people really enjoyed dancing to 10-15 yrs ago are rarely if any putting on newer tracks.

Once again, this is just my opinion and my opinion only, I by no means intend to offend or upset or direct this at any one person or group of people.

Everything said here is true... the scene gets younger, any scene does, and it is. Younger often means harder, faster, less melodic...as it does here. The kids eat that "1,2,3,dance with me" song UP. I hate it. To each their own. It's an "industrial" club, after all, so they will play more Combichrist than Bauhaus, and I understand that. As much as I wish it was a goth club, it's not, so I understand why my favorites are rarely played.

If you want to keep both groups happy, you have to play stuff for both groups. If you want to keep those of us who like the older stuff happy, but you don't want to play Anarchy and Cuts You Up every time, you could try playing other songs by the same groups? Covenant has a huge library of awesome songs, and soooo many of them would be appropriate for club play, but only ~4 get played. Same may go for KMFDM (presumably, I'm not actually a big fan so I only know the club songs, but I bet there are other good ones). Peter Murphy has some other danceable songs, both with and without Bauhaus. And One as well, though only 3 get played. But I don't know, I'm not actually here to complain about overplayed songs. I don't mind them so much. I'd rather hear Panzermensch 50 times than Face Down once. Or even Military Fashion Show...though that one is overplayed more than any other song I can think of.

It also doesn't help, I suppose, that I'm just a little too "goody-two-shoes" for my own good. Sexy can be good, but so many of the songs are just kinda laughably disgusting. Face Down, Faggot, Skullfuck, most things by Combichrist...the lyrics turn me off and I can't get into them even if I could try otherwise (though honestly most of the time the songs themselves aren't my style anyway so it's not a big loss). Or they're so depressed and emo and hateful...I don't hate everything, I'm quite a happy person, so I don't like to dance to a song that makes me think it's written for some emo 17 year old sitting in his bedroom cutting himself while the black eye makeup runs down his face thinking about how bad life is because his mother didn't buy him what he wanted for his birthday.

Sorry for my rant on the state of music at the clubs today. ^^ I just want to say, I mean it all in good fun, and I don't mean to come across so harshly, so please just remember a lot of this is written tongue-in-cheek.

Also pardon the book, and pardon my train-of-thought rambling. I may think of something else to add later, but for now, there's my 2 yen.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I do remember and I do appreciate the little throws-out that some of the DJs, particularly Void, does for me, throwing in a Flat Fields or Bela or some good old Joy Division She's in Parties, etc, once in a while. It's awesome that you do that and I always appreciate it. When Bauhaus comes on, I know most don't like it, and I appreciate that it can't be played all the time, so I really appreciate that you're willing to throw it out there for those of us who do prefer to old goth stuff (it's not JUST me!!! XD). So a shout-out to my man Void for being cool like that.

Edited December 8, 2009 by TheOsakaKoneko

[Raev]

*contemplates a new thread....muahahahaha*

[torn asunder]

EDIT: Sorry, torn. I did want to get my appreciation out there for our scene's DJs.

no sweat, you made some very good points! i don't think people really mean "suck" when they say it, it's just a quick way to say that they weren't feeling the song selection. unfortunately, it can come across as a personal affront to the djs, when i'm fairly sure that isn't what was intended. that being said, most djs getting know going into the biz (or learn shortly thereafter) that people are pretty blunt, and they would benefit from learning to have a "thick skin" so to speak. comments like that are part of the business, you know?

[Msterbeau]

Gotta agree with the statement about playing different songs by fave artists. Also agreeing with Osaka about the "vulgar" songs.. They're humorous one or twice, after that they're kinda annoying. So.. A little new stuff.. a little popular stuff, and some different stuff by established artists you know we like.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Gotta agree with the statement about playing different songs by fave artists. Also agreeing with Osaka about the "vulgar" songs.. They're humorous one or twice, after that they're kinda annoying. So.. A little new stuff.. a little popular stuff, and some different stuff by established artists you know we like.

Nah, you know, we're just getting old and crony...next thing you know we'll be writing angry letters to the network television stations for saying "Damn" and "Hell", and telling those darn kids to stay off our lawns!!

[Msterbeau]

no sweat, you made some very good points! i don't think people really mean "suck" when they say it, it's just a quick way to say that they weren't feeling the song selection. unfortunately, it can come across as a personal affront to the djs, when i'm fairly sure that isn't what was intended. that being said, most djs getting know going into the biz (or learn shortly thereafter) that people are pretty blunt, and they would benefit from learning to have a "thick skin" so to speak. comments like that are part of the business, you know?

The thick skin comment is something I had in mind after DJ Saint's last comment. Trust me.. I know how this goes.. I get it often as a designer. You HAVE to develop a thick skin and be able to separate the useful commentary from the chaff. And you have to do all of that if you're going to be an artist or something in that realm. (I think DJ'ing counts... plus Marc.. you should know this from your day job, yes?)

[Msterbeau]

Nah, you know, we're just getting old and crony...next thing you know we'll be writing angry letters to the network television stations for saying "Damn" and "Hell", and telling those darn kids to stay off our lawns!!

Speak for yourself. I'm never getting old.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Speak for yourself. I'm never getting old.

I think everyone who knows me knows I'm in no danger of acting older than my years.

YOUNGER than them, sure. *Dressing* younger than them? Definitely. Never ever ever older.

I can't help it that much of my favorite music came out when I was in kindergarten...or before I was born.

[Raev]

What DO you want to hear the DJs spin?

[Lillylu29]

Music was...yeah. Far too techno-y for my tastes. I danced a bit and enjoyed some songs but in general I found the whole night to have a very "industrial" flavor...by which I mean the thumping beats, no melody, no feeling, just electronic beats. Not quite my thing. It sometimes works to keep the crowd moving, and much of the floor did seem to be moving, but it seemed to be more the too-drunk-to-care "don't know the music anyway so a thumping beat is easy to keep step and grind and make out to" crowd.

As far as the music goes I agree with the above post... I was ok dancing to a fair amount of it... the only thing that seemed to aggravate me that night was the amout of people on the dance floor STANDING there and bumping into me.... there are other places to STAND... go to thoes places....

[Raev]

Anyone object to me moving the posts that have to do with the music itself, over into the new thread?

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Anyone object to me moving the posts that have to do with the music itself, over into the new thread?

...Why would you?

Posts made in one thread are meant for that thread. They might be worded differently in a different context. Are you going to reword things to make them make sense in a conversation too? Everything in a forum is part of a conversation and is said in context. Changing the context changes what was said. And it would make this thread no longer make sense. Not everything has to be 100% organized all the time.

[Raev]

Because thread hijacking is discouraged.

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Because thread hijacking is discouraged.

But everything seems relevant, and therefore not a hijack. And the discussion of music was a direct aftermath.

We could cut off talking about it here if you really insist, but I'm strongly opposed to any mod movement of individuals' individual comments ever. Whole threads could be moved intact to other sections if more appropriate, but individual comments? That are part of an ongoing conversation? Really?

[Raev]

Every post relating to music conversation would be moved, in the order in which they were made - keeping the integrity of the conversation intact. For sake of "threadjack avoidance", I'll pm ya any other replies to this

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Whatever. You asked if anyone objected, so I answered. If you planned to do it anyway no matter what anyone said, why ask? And then why call it threadjacking when I respond to the question YOU asked? It's fine, do what you will. I don't care. I was just stating my opinion. ::shrug::

And just btw, it's not a moot point - for example, if I was posting in a thread that would have a long lifespan, I wouldn't say anything about "cutting" for example, even as a small lighthearted joke, because it can be a painful subject and could be offensive, but in a short-lived aftermath thread, never to be visited again after the next weekend, it's a throw-away comment that can be said without too much risk, especially with disclaimers. Things said ALWAYS have context.

[torn asunder]

But everything seems relevant, and therefore not a hijack. And the discussion of music was a direct aftermath.

We could cut off talking about it here if you really insist, but I'm strongly opposed to any mod movement of individuals' individual comments ever. Whole threads could be moved intact to other sections if more appropriate, but individual comments? That are part of an ongoing conversation? Really?

fyi, there have been several occasions where threads have been 'split" into two different topics due to the nature of the discussions. it's not unheard of, and as far as i know, isn't frowned upon.

i do follow your point though, and i agree about it being directly related to the "aftermath" thread. i just sent raev a pm; you're more than free to message me as well!

Edited December 8, 2009 by torn asunder

[Mean Salley]

In defense of the DJ's...

Truth be told, a lot of the audience is to blame, far more than the DJ's

I've spoken at length with Jon Noble who has said for YEARS he has tried to introduce some new things, and it clears the dance floor EVERY time. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it's not one of the same 20 bands people have been danceturbating to for their entire adolescent/adult life, they won't have it. The only exceptions are really poppy sounding stuff, and stuff like Combichrist which is so popular that everybody who wants to be anybody will be a good little individual and jump though the hoop for it.

Why?

Because the whole goth industrial idea, in the past, was almost entirely, ENFUCKIN'TIRELY about the arts. And now it is ENFUCKIN'TIRELY NOT NOT NOT about the arts.

In years past, people liked the new raw stuff, people loved to see all the crazy shit people wore to the clubs, people loved the visuals in all forms, the philosophy, and all of the different NEW bands. Look at Skinny Puppy fans 15 years ago; complete fucking freaks with all manner of creativity and bizzare ideas. This is what their show was like in Chicago a few years ago. I liked the crowd, better than I liked the show. The show a few weeks ago in Royal Oak was moderately full, and had maybe 12 people total dressed up to even the slightest extent. Literally, people standing in line were looking at me like an almighty gothical Jehovah on earth because of a few fucking feathers. If it weren't for Chernobyl, Pestilence and a few others I would have felt out of place... at a Skinny Puppy concert.

Bottom line, a lot of the people around here don't give a fat flying fuck-trickle about any artistic value, and I'm not saying you have to, but that element is certainly gone at least from city club. It is not important anymore, but here's what is;

People are lonely, and they know these things are very true;

If you are a girl and decide to not wear much to the club- YOU WILL GET A SHIT LOAD OF ATTENTION.

If you are a d00d and you give that chick who is not wearing much some attention SHE WILL PRETEND TO LIKE YOU.

You will see boobs every damned week

You will see the same fucking people week after week.

You will feel like you have friends until 4:30 AM

You will feel like you are a part of some weak low integrity movement

You will eventually get your dick wet

You will dance to the same songs as you have for a full decade and someone will think "wow, they're totally with the scene"

You will find someone to waste your time and talent with by burning the years away on a fucking x-box

You will always wonder why the people in their 30's and 40's look cross eyed at you when you are competing for attention.

A lot of the people who are interested in the arts are rarely seen out, and places like the DGN poetry and music forums and some of the circus/performance events are the only outlets for related arts and those are often time not taken seriously.

I see photographers as a rare breed, the musicians on here, I give all manner of respect to because you at least get off your asses and try. To the poets and painters/sculptors, who really love their art, I'm sorry that there's little love for you around here. But quite frankly cityclub and the whole "scene" in Detroit is a big social club and white trash fashion show.

That's great if that's what you need and I'm not saying there's a problem with that. You do have to consider the necessity of introducing new stuff and can't really complain if you insist on nothing but the same 15 year old songs week after week. In a place like this, part of a DJ's job is to bring new stuff out. If you don't like it, sit at home and play your ancient, worn out Siouxie cassette tapes. If you're just showing up for the party to ogle, get laid and drink yourself retarded, and have no concern for musical integrity at all, hold your tongue if they don't play your favorite uber-processed drivel. Believe me, you will hear it often for the next 15 years.

Until people around Detroit realize that you have to go somewhere that is not a club for any sort of artistic appreciation to take place, get used to panzermench, 18 year old naked attention whores, and 22 year old virgin sex addicts sloshing around in a puddle of their own drool.

Music appreciation will only be dependent on if it's a moldy oldie, or if it's easy to bop around to when you're drunk.

The arts are not here, they have left the building.

I laugh at the fact that years ago I used to get all excited about City Club thinking, "Wow, I'm going to hear lots of new stuff and maybe find some musicians!!!!

To Void 6 and DJ Saint (and all of the other CC DJ's, Thanks for all the new stuff you guys have tried at CC over the years. The amount of music all of you DJ's know is unfathomable to me, but at least I know that.

re-invent

Coming soon- why the FANS are often to blame for any decline in music and it's appreciation.

[Msterbeau]

Let the new music kill the dance floor a few times. If it continues... maybe it sucks? OR... Maybe it just needs a few listens before it catches. Keep playing it. I know there's a lot of music I LOVE now that took a few listens to appreciate.

As for Mean Salley -

[TheOsakaKoneko]

Just to give my opinion on a few points..

To me, goth is all about art. I got into goth through fashion (which I *do* consider art), and it's still my #1 point of interest. I weep that not many people take effort in their outfits for City/etc. I love seeing people who do something new and creative, something unique, something you poured your soul into. There are still people around at City and elsewhere that care about the arts. After all, you still go every once in a while, right? But alas, speaking in general terms, very few seem to care. About fashion or music. I can't speak for the other visual arts, but from the conversations I've had, I don't have a lot of hope. But I know there are some, and I hold out hope to meet these some. What can I say, I'm an optimist. I like to think that I'm one who cares about art, but probably in your eyes, I'm not, because I'm not very "goth", and also not very knowledgeable about new music. To be perfectly honest, I've only been around for a few years (I mean in the goth scene at all, not the D), so to me, those same 20 bands are still newish. All the time I'm still discovering bands that are considered standards and have been around 20 years, because I hadn't heard of them before. I'm a 27 year old babybat...pathetic, ain't it?

Unfortunately, I do agree with the points about naked girls and drooling guys. They make up 75% of the populace. I still hold out for that other 25%, but I definitely agree with the unfortunate fact that most of the club is there just to hook up. This is abhorrent to me and, actually, when I first started coming, I felt sick and hated City for it. Naked girls, shirtless nasty guys, grinding on each other as if at a hip hop club and making out on the dance floor....no thanks. It certainly wasn't like that at my old club. I've grown used to it, and I don't give up on City because there are still decent people there around the edges. Kinda like Jello after an oversized meal...not much can fit after all the crap you ate, but there's always room for Jello.

For the record, I don't dislike new stuff because it's new. At all. I dislike vulgar things with a vengeance, and I don't care for techno stuff. Most of the new stuff seems to be techno and dance music rather than gothy at all (in my own narrowminded view of what I consider "gothy"), so I don't care for it, but not because it's new. I think this is one thing that's often misunderstood. I don't only like old music. I like that GENRE. I like synthpop/gothrock/deathrock/new wave genre. I don't like most of the techno genre. (For example, I love She Wants Revenge...though people will probably laugh at me for it being poppy.) I don't sit out a new song because it's new. If it has a groove I can appreciate, I will dance to it - because to me, 4 years ago EVERYTHING was new. Now they play 8 year old songs by well-known bands, and to me it's NEW. On the other hand, they may play a new song but in a genre I like, and I will dance to it because I like it. I won't dislike things for being new nor like them for being old, but in the same way, I won't like everything that's new just because it's new to look like I want to appreciate new things. I like what I like. Heck, sometimes I get out there and dance to a song that sounds like it has potential even if not my style (I do like some harder songs), but the moment someone talks about fucking some whore or about killing some faggot (not referencing any songs in particular, just hate vulgarity), I'm sorry, but I'm off the floor. I'm not 17 and I don't need to prove how cool and rebellious I am, and I just can't see why else anyone would like a song like that.

Wow that was rambley. Sorry.

[DJ Saint]

I know the DJs in the scene are working their tails off. I know that they do get a lot a requests, and that there are still a lot of people that are requesting songs some of us feel are less than desirable. Trying to get a lot of requests, get new music into the system, making the mixes/fades, and keeping the floor hopping is a lot of effort, a bit of luck, and a lot of art. (decades ago, another lifetime, I tried my hand at this. It is definitely NOT easy.)

It is a combination of both us as a group (let's face it, some of us ask for the same thing repeatedly week after week,) and a lot of other people at the club (we aren't the only ones being addressed.)

Now, instead of general statements of the night's music being less than desirable, let's be CIVIL, and let the DJs know, instead of music we don't want to hear, let them know music we WANT to hear more. Remember, they can't satisfy everyone. I am glad they are online and will respond.

Music takes up a lot of the scene, as a common link between a lot of us (I know I stand out in a lot of crowds by very normal, but the music is something we can discuss.) We have a nice opportunity to talk to our DJs here, as there aren't many places I know ofthat DJs/club goes can interact like this.

So, be CIVIL, POLITE, and SPECIFIC about what you WANT to hear.

EDIT: Sorry, torn. I did want to get my appreciation out there for our scene's DJs.

This is extremely well said. Thanks for speaking up everyone and apologies for my outburst earlier in the thread. Just really annoying to read again that people felt the music on a given night BLEW and then can't take the time to justify their reasoning with a reply. Even if it's as simple as "Far too techno-y for my tastes", hell that works. Might not change anything but it gives a better piece of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism than just plain "the music BLEW". Believe it or not I can handle constructive criticism.

Theirs plenty of validity in many things said throughout post here (ie: the music is changing, new stuff needs to be given a chance, re-invent, etc...) but rather than retread the endless debate over yet again (and it seems like every 8 months we get a similar post on City Clubs music/DJ's -do a search) let's move forward, be open-minded to the changes, cut the DJ's some slack, think about request a bit, tolerate things, etc...

If your going to be critical and bring your complaints (which are welcome) try not to be all negative - state WHY, give a reason... Speaking just for myself as a DJ, I can take that analysis and try to improve things or in return attempt to explain my logic for playing certain songs...

Get the idea?

Again apologies for the earlier anger. I promise to lighten up, behave and remember it's about fun

Oh yeah I'll also be watching the post Raev started about what people want to hear at City. I have a feeling that's going to be helpful and we can bounce music/songs around.

Be well everyone

[Msterbeau]

I love a happy ending.. *sniff*