Michigan workplaces -- including bars and restaurants -- will go smokefree in May

[Destroit]

I am laughing my fucking ASS off at how fucking IRATE most of you smokers are about this. Some of you haven't been so bad about it, but some of you...jesus fucking christ..it's like it's the end of the world or something. It's not like you've been told you can never smoke again.

God knows that's what The Almighty Obama has in store for us next year.

The year after that everyone will be forced to be vegetarian.

To try and relate this to you: What if they ban tattoos next and demand that everyone with existing body art have it removed because there MAY be a risk of skin cancer involved? Would you, personally, be pissed off then?

I should HOPE you would be, as it would be very unfair and not the place of the government to say. I’m just trying to relate this to the issue at hand and make you understand WHY we’re making such a big deal about it. I don’t even smoke-smoke anymore, I smoke when I drink or may bum a cig here and there off people, but even this law makes me angry and government is crossing the line and obviously refusing to work with both parties on the matter, they would rather alienate one altogether and create a rift of hatred between both sides instead of coming to a solution.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Chernobyl

[phee]

God knows that's what The Almighty Obama has in store for us next year.

The year after that everyone will be forced to be vegetarian.

To try and relate this to you: What if they ban tattoos next and demand that everyone with existing body art have it removed because there MAY be a risk of skin cancer involved? Would you, personally, be pissed off then?

I should HOPE you would be, as it would be very unfair and not the place of the government to say. I’m just trying to relate this to the issue at hand and make you understand WHY we’re making such a big deal about it. I don’t even smoke-smoke anymore, I smoke when I drink or may bum a cig here and there off people, but even this law makes me angry and government is crossing the line and obviously refusing to work with both parties on the matter, they would rather alienate one altogether and create a rift of hatred between both sides instead of coming to a solution.

I see what you are saying Miss.... but there is one issue with it.... having tattoos is a bit different then smoking... if tattoos did give people skin cancer (and actually some of them do). Then the only person directly effected by it is the person who got inked. Smoking effects the smoker and the people around them at the same time...

[Rayne]

That example is off the subject, as it is clearly ass holes that are blatantly ignoring or defying a posted rule.

It still happens, because it is a rule, rather than a law. There are no ramifications to breaking the "rule", so people continue to do it without penalty.

It is my lungs and my medical conditions that are affected, as well as your own.

I am all for, if you want to do it to yourself (drugs, alcohol, smoking ... any of that), then that is fine, just don't make me do it as well. It is my choice not to.

[Rev.Reverence]

I don't MAKE you do anything.

I hardly go out to any Clubs.

I am pissed off that THIS LAW, sais I can not have a private smokers club....Hm..I wonder how the richies are going to take this in their Country Clubs...Vets in their VFW Halls...& on & on the list goes, this is what this ban is affecting...NOT EVEN places you can get into on a regular basis.

[phee]

I don't MAKE you do anything.

I hardly go out to any Clubs.

I am pissed off that THIS LAW, sais I can not have a private smokers club....Hm..I wonder how the richies are going to take this in their Country Clubs...Vets in their VFW Halls...& on & on the list goes, this is what this ban is affecting...NOT EVEN places you can get into on a regular basis.

Simple question...

A non smoker and a smoker (with no specific viewpoint on this issue) are standing next to one another in a.... say cafe. The non smoker continues to non smoke, the smoker lights up... Who is being forced to do something in this situation?

And I still think that it should be up to the business... as long as the customers follow it.

[bean]

God knows that's what The Almighty Obama has in store for us next year.

The year after that everyone will be forced to be vegetarian.

To try and relate this to you: What if they ban tattoos next and demand that everyone with existing body art have it removed because there MAY be a risk of skin cancer involved? Would you, personally, be pissed off then?

I should HOPE you would be, as it would be very unfair and not the place of the government to say. I’m just trying to relate this to the issue at hand and make you understand WHY we’re making such a big deal about it. I don’t even smoke-smoke anymore, I smoke when I drink or may bum a cig here and there off people, but even this law makes me angry and government is crossing the line and obviously refusing to work with both parties on the matter, they would rather alienate one altogether and create a rift of hatred between both sides instead of coming to a solution.

I see what you are saying Miss.... but there is one issue with it.... having tattoos is a bit different then smoking... if tattoos did give people skin cancer (and actually some of them do). Then the only person directly effected by it is the person who got inked. Smoking effects the smoker and the people around them at the same time...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Having a tattoo removed is a hell of a lot different than not being able to smoke inside. You are still allowed to smoke. You just have to change where you do it. And if they did outlaw tattoos, and I had to get them removed, I'd be pissed off, yes, but I wouldn't be whining and crying about it every five seconds like some people are.

There are worse things in the world to worry about. Every month I have to worry about being able to pay every single fucking bill I have. I'm having medical issues right now that I can't afford.

I get it, I understand. I used to smoke, and I did it for over 13 years. What is annoying the fuck out of me is that some people are being absolutely ridiculous about this. There is a difference between being pissed off about it, and acting like a child about it, by the way. If I cared that much about being away from smoke, then I would never go out in public. I can wash my clothes and take a shower after going out to get rid of the disgusting smell of smoke. Whatever, no big deal.

I think that private clubs should allow smoking, but I'm glad that everyone else has to go smoke free. Why? Because there are people that are seriously affected by cigarette smoke (people with breathing issues, for example). Why should these people have to stay away from their favorite place, or a place they really like because it's full of smoke?

Edited December 14, 2009 by bean

[Rayne]

I am pissed off that THIS LAW, sais I can not have a private smokers club..

This is not entirely true, in my own opinion.

I think the original legislation is exempting casinos, which would pave the way to some sort of licensing for a "private smoker's club". It is only a matter of time before that happens. Probably within the first few months, because studies show when a ban goes into effect that business will slow down and decline before they kick back up.

[Rev.Reverence]

I think that private clubs should allow smoking, but I'm glad that everyone else has to go smoke free. Why? Because there are people that are seriously affected by cigarette smoke (people with breathing issues, for example). Why should these people have to stay away from their favorite place, or a place they really like because it's full of smoke?

I understand this, & hope you know, MY incessant whining will NOT stop, because it is mainly for the private facilities that I protest...

[bean]

I understand this, & hope you know, MY incessant whining will NOT stop, because it is mainly for the private facilities that I protest...

I actually wasn't even talking about you when I was talking about the whining and crying...and I disagree with the part about private establishments too...

Edited December 14, 2009 by bean

[Simon Bar Sinister]

for those opposed to the ban: you've aired a number of points where you take issue with various provisions of the law. what comes next? you'd be better off contacting your local state rep to modify the law to allow private clubs an exemption, or helping mount a petition drive to overturn it. at the very least, some DGN smokers-only house parties should be on tap.

[candyman]

the more i think about this, the more i think people are missing the point. (i know i did originally) this law is meant to protect the waitstaff/bartenders who are trying to earn a living. smoking creats a hostile, unhealthy work environment. many, many workplaces are smoke-free, i don't see anyone bitching about not being able to smoke at work!? these service workers are forced to breathe in that smoke, or quit/lose their job, there are no other options for them. are the smokerrs saying that their right to smoke is greater than their right to earn a living in a healthy work environment?

Are you 100% sure of that? Are you sure that ALL bartenders support the ban? Do you even pay attention to the workers or do they only exist when you need a beer or need something to support a cause? So what happens when I go to Baba's Thirsty Rhino today to watch the Packer game and both the bartenders, Jared and Lisa, are smoking...is that a fluke? Or what about Yangers where most of the staff smokes? I could list all the bars in my town but that would take a while. I may even go to one of the non-smoking bars we have to watch the game because their food is EPIC! What about the huge petition from the Wisconsin Tavern League to both state and federal levels...the Tavern League is made up of owners and workers in case you were wondering.

I am also not saying it is good either...but you are going a bit far with the "hostile" work environment. With some of the machinery we work on my cigarette is not really hostile at all...and with the ventilation systems running I doubt if my smoke ever reaches any of my coworkers.

You gotta realize that every bar, every workplace, and especially every worker is going to be different. I realize that right now some people "don't have a choice", which you can't say because you really don't know, and that it is a little unfair. So, if smokers are stepping on non-smoker toes how is it that much better for non-smokers to turn around and stomp on ours? Maybe if there was a 50/50 split between smoking and non....or maybe if you let the places choose there would be less bitching. I am not making shit up when I say that I know plenty of bars and a few work places that DO NOT want to go smoke free and that includes everyone that attends these places.

[candyman]

Simple question...

A non smoker and a smoker (with no specific viewpoint on this issue) are standing next to one another in a.... say cafe. The non smoker continues to non smoke, the smoker lights up... Who is being forced to do something in this situation?

And I still think that it should be up to the business... as long as the customers follow it.

I am sorry but you make it seem like everyone that is a non-smoker is a horrible victim. In these situations it is up to that person to decide what to do. Most of the time people say nothing...either because they don't care or that they are building up their rage for later. Nobody has EVER told me I was bothering them. And for those non-smokers that don't care, well I have never heard any non-smokers that are regulars at the local bars complain about it at all...they just poke fun at us sometimes...then again my favorite bars have those new inventions called FANS and VENT SYSTEMS which may have improved matter a little...

[bean]

Smokers are getting all pissed off at nonsmokers about this. It's not like nonsmokers voted this thing in, people. It was the government. I'm sure there are nonsmokers who don't like the ban either, just like I'm sure that there are some smokers that support the ban.

So, if you want to get all pissed off at someone, get pissed off at the government and DO something about it (like SpammerOvTheGods suggested) instead of just sitting behind the computer and complaining about it. Contact your representatives, start petitions, organize rallies...etc.

[phee]

I am sorry but you make it seem like everyone that is a non-smoker is a horrible victim. In these situations it is up to that person to decide what to do. Most of the time people say nothing...either because they don't care or that they are building up their rage for later. Nobody has EVER told me I was bothering them. And for those non-smokers that don't care, well I have never heard any non-smokers that are regulars at the local bars complain about it at all...they just poke fun at us sometimes...then again my favorite bars have those new inventions called FANS and VENT SYSTEMS which may have improved matter a little...

I never said victim... I simply asked the question....

Same question... person with no boombox next to someone with one turned on... who is being forced to do something?

Dude jerking off is next to someone who isn't... who is going to get semen on who?

I personally think that smoking is a lot like jerking off to a degree.... Do it at home, hell do it with friends! But don't make people experience you do it where they eat and drink.... UNLESS it clearly states on the club or food establishment, WE EXCEPT SPOOGERS HERE! then its the private jerk offers own fault for going into the place.

(oh and like smoking, ladies... masturbating can also make you look cool imo)

[Rev.Reverence]

(oh and like smoking, ladies... masturbating can also make you look cool imo)

[candyman]

Smokers are getting all pissed off at nonsmokers about this. It's not like nonsmokers voted this thing in, people. It was the government. I'm sure there are nonsmokers who don't like the ban either, just like I'm sure that there are some smokers that support the ban.

So, if you want to get all pissed off at someone, get pissed off at the government and DO something about it (like SpammerOvTheGods suggested) instead of just sitting behind the computer and complaining about it. Contact your representatives, start petitions, organize rallies...etc.

Hehe...that works...should I send my next letters straight to file 13 or give it to someone who will do it with a smile on their face?

Rally...I remember the three I went to going badly...something about the Clean Air people counter protesting, people throwing stuff at me, and then cops.

I don't feel like signing petitions anymore...we sent two of them in to Madison, yes they were large, and they were sent in when they let us vote on the subject...and the state voted it down those first two times. So, it was voted down statewide the first two times complete with petitions to change the bill and they just say "fuck it they really meant yes" and don't even let us vote the third time? Ummm...

The only thing I do online is try to express my point of view and see what others say. Mostly because I believe that it should be up to the owners. However, if the ban must remain on the bars, and I only think that these rules should apply to BARS, then they should at least make exemptions like some sort of permit, the addition of smoking rooms that have HEAT or SHADE or SHELTER! If your only option is to go outside...that is not and option...you need two for that to work. If people can all come together, non-smokers AND smokers, and work out a compromise like the options I listed about and maybe get rid of the absurd tickets for people smoking outdoors that is when things will work.

Noticed I mentioned how they give tickets to people that are smoking outdoors...so even leaving the bar is not good enough.

[candyman]

I never said victim... I simply asked the question....

Same question... person with no boombox next to someone with one turned on... who is being forced to do something?

Dude jerking off is next to someone who isn't... who is going to get semen on who?

I personally think that smoking is a lot like jerking off to a degree.... Do it at home, hell do it with friends! But don't make people experience you do it where they eat and drink.... UNLESS it clearly states on the club or food establishment, WE EXCEPT SPOOGERS HERE! then its the private jerk offers own fault for going into the place.

(oh and like smoking, ladies... masturbating can also make you look cool imo)

Well, not many restaurants let you smoke in them anymore...which I am cool with. The only place I smoke besides outdoors is in my favorite bars...where I can honestly tell you that 8 out of 10 people smoke. That includes the bar workers, the owner, and the patrons. You can also tell the most of the people in my favorite bars smoke if you come out to watch out softball teams...it is really hard to bat when you are smoking.

We already have non-smoking bars in my town...and they are not doing well at all and have each changed hands a few times. Now, that would mean that if we were allowed to choose that my town has already done that. We have plenty of non-smoking establishments in my area...but in this area with the way we are they just get shit for business. If the area does not fit the regulation that is going into place then what is the point?

With that line of thought lets look at these examples. California wants down jackets, real down not imitation, banned while Wisconsin and Michigan want to keep their asses from freezing off...so they are only banned in Cali because that would screw us over here. Now, town A has more non-smokers while town B has more smokers...so town A gets together with the bar owners and a decision is made to have more non-smoking establishments while town B decides that it wants more smoking establishments.

However, we can't do this if other people don't speak up...and a crowd of only smokers can't really do more than cough their disapproval...we need help. It may be unfair of me to do this but I have vowed not to help vote when it come to gay rights, abortion laws, pretty much anything else until people wake up. It's not us, as in smokers vs. non-smokers, to a degree...it is mostly the government.

[phee]

I agree that the issue maybe a bit overkilled by the government..... in a selfish sense, it was nice to not walk out of Skinny Puppy about to cough up a lung though.

[bean]

Hehe...that works...should I send my next letters straight to file 13 or give it to someone who will do it with a smile on their face?

Rally...I remember the three I went to going badly...something about the Clean Air people counter protesting, people throwing stuff at me, and then cops.

I don't feel like signing petitions anymore...

I never said doing any of those things is easy - each comes with setbacks. But, then again, I guess the easier thing to do is lie back and get fucked, and then complain about how you are getting fucked.

If everyone throughout time had the same views on fighting the system as you, NOTHING would have ever changed.

If people really care about something, they will fight to change it, instead of just sitting there and complaining about it.

[candyman]

I never said doing any of those things is easy - each comes with setbacks. But, then again, I guess the easier thing to do is lie back and get fucked, and then complain about how you are getting fucked.

If everyone throughout time had the same views on fighting the system as you, NOTHING would have ever changed.

If people really care about something, they will fight to change it, instead of just sitting there and complaining about it.

Oh its ok we are still working on it...thanks for the support.

It really isn't easier to sit back and wait...it is easier to look for loopholes in the laws so that we are ready when it comes. Self-serve bars and "research" bars will probably last a while...we got around that stupid law that said bars had to close at 2:30am so smoking in them after the ban will be a breeze.

All in all though...I would like to go the legal route...

[Simon Bar Sinister]

to the other non-smokers here: did you know before the discussion here that this law would ban smoking in private clubs? I didn't, and, while I'm all like in regards to banning public smoking in almost all circumstances, I find the ban on smoking in private clubs fairly offensive. I would support a petition drive to repeal/amend that section of the law, and I'm curious if any other non-smokers feel the same way.

[AstralCrux]

You would be surprised, as a non-smoker, how many public places I encounter that have "no smoking" (and not just here in Michigan, I travel a lot) policies where people do it anyway and either try to hide it, or until they are caught and told not to.

Yeah, I see that in my line of work too. We warn and then we boot the person out if they are smoking in a non-smoking area. And, you're going to get rulebreakers anywhere for any number of things. We can't punish everyone for a just a few being asses.

Same question... person with no boombox next to someone with one turned on... who is being forced to do something?

I can't stand it when people get up on their soapbox and try to convince the people walking by to join their religion. It severely pollutes my ears, but I don't contend them and I don't rally to stop them, because it is their right to freedom of speech. If I had kids, I'd be even more severely offended, but I still wouldn't try to take their rights away. They could be trying to preach the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I would defend their rights to do it. Even if in the end, I don't want to hear it.

With that line of thought lets look at these examples. California wants down jackets, real down not imitation, banned while Wisconsin and Michigan want to keep their asses from freezing off...so they are only banned in Cali because that would screw us over here.

However, we can't do this if other people don't speak up...and a crowd of only smokers can't really do more than cough their disapproval...we need help. It may be unfair of me to do this but I have vowed not to help vote when it come to gay rights, abortion laws, pretty much anything else until people wake up. It's not us, as in smokers vs. non-smokers, to a degree...it is mostly the government.

I've met a person severely allergic to feathers. She can't stand next to a person in a down jacket. Shopping is literally hell for her in the winter. But, banning down is insane. Just for a few people, we go without feathers? No nice warm down comforters... It's a down-ward (hehe)spiral. It really is...

I would be fully amiable to working on my days off towards passing new legislation that gets rid of this smoking ban. At some point, a group will start up, but I don't have the resources to start one. I sign petitions for pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, and other things that I believe we deserve choices on as individuals. I will do my part, to change the laws that hold our freedoms back, and I will defend someone else's right to those freedoms.

[Bpage]

We've had the ban here in California for ages now (well BEFORE Obama). Like anything you get used to it. One reason I hate coming back to Detroit and going to bars and clubs is smelling like smoke when i come home.

You can gather in smoking 'petting zoos' outside. My husband said he met more people outside smoking than he ever did inside the club, so there is an upside!

[torn asunder]

We've had the ban here in California for ages now (well BEFORE Obama). Like anything you get used to it. One reason I hate coming back to Detroit and going to bars and clubs is smelling like smoke when i come home.

You can gather in smoking 'petting zoos' outside. My husband said he met more people outside smoking than he ever did inside the club, so there is an upside!

wow, haven't seen you here in ages!

[Rev.Reverence]

Yeah, I see that in my line of work too. We warn and then we boot the person out if they are smoking in a non-smoking area. And, you're going to get rulebreakers anywhere for any number of things. We can't punish everyone for a just a few being asses.

I can't stand it when people get up on their soapbox and try to convince the people walking by to join their religion. It severely pollutes my ears, but I don't contend them and I don't rally to stop them, because it is their right to freedom of speech. If I had kids, I'd be even more severely offended, but I still wouldn't try to take their rights away. They could be trying to preach the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I would defend their rights to do it. Even if in the end, I don't want to hear it.

I've met a person severely allergic to feathers. She can't stand next to a person in a down jacket. Shopping is literally hell for her in the winter. But, banning down is insane. Just for a few people, we go without feathers? No nice warm down comforters... It's a down-ward (hehe)spiral. It really is...

I would be fully amiable to working on my days off towards passing new legislation that gets rid of this smoking ban. At some point, a group will start up, but I don't have the resources to start one. I sign petitions for pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, and other things that I believe we deserve choices on as individuals. I will do my part, to change the laws that hold our freedoms back, and I will defend someone else's right to those freedoms.

...yuperz...this country is founded upon liberty, personal liberties, we have now run into a spot where personal liberties are clashing...

...what about MY right to breathe?...Yup, another fat-old-lady wearing the WHOLE BOTTLE of perfume to K-MART...LET'S BAN THAT!