Michigan workplaces -- including bars and restaurants -- will go smokefree in May

[Nightgaunt]

if i work there, you *are* forcing me, because more likely than not, i can't afford to just walk out & quit my job so as not to breathe your smoke.

how hard is that for anyone to understand? i just don't get it...

It's not hard for me to understand where you're coming from. At my previous job, I had to breathe in polyvinylchloride fumes without a mask, stand in 3 inch deep water with non-wet-location-rated extension cords, and eat my lunch with toxic chemicals on my hands. I couldn't afford to quit, so I dealt with it. The fact is, I DID have a choice in where I worked, even with the crappy economic climate. As a citizen, I am not guaranteed a job, much less an ideal work environment. If you're having problems with the smokers where you work, as your boss to consider making it a nonsmoking establishment. When I asked the company to address the problems I mentioned previously, I was reminded that I could quit if I had a problem with the way things were being run. If making a bar, restaurant, etc. smoke-free won't have any economic impact (as I keep hearing), then your boss should have no problem taking care of the needs or desires of his employees. No special law needed.

neither is the right to smoke

Oh come on. Not specifically, no. Neither is the right to masturbate, the right to pick your nose in public, or the right to eat M&Ms drenched in ranch dressing. What we do have is the right to live our lives without government interference.

What some people really, really don't seem to be getting here is that this is not about smoking. It's about allowing unacceptable levels of government intrusion into our lives. It's as if all they have to do is coat something with a thin veneer of "common sense", "political correctness", or "public health", and the mindless American masses will knuckle under to just about anything. My favorite is "for the sake of the children". Today, it's smoking, but because everyone's been trained to have a certain reaction to cigarettes, the violation of the basic tenets of how our society is supposed to function is overlooked. This makes it easier the next time. It's another step in the incremental march to a police state.

The time is not far off when you'll be required to routinely have your home inspected for "green violations" or whatever cute little term the government cooks up for it. Will that finally be too much for you? Or will that be a-ok, because Al Gore or whoever the green zombies are following, says it's necessary to save the planet? I could go on, but it's all inevitable. Michigan is dead anyway; it just hasn't quite realized it yet. The country won't be far behind.

Mercury, artificial hormones, and arsenic in the water.

Thalites in the plastic.

BGH and melamine in the milk.

Genetically engineered crops.

Pesticides in and on the fruit and vegetables.

But at least something's being done about the smokers.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Nightgaunt

[~Tszura~]

It seems as though many people are responding to this topic with emotion first, and “The Big Picture” perspective second. I’m not a smoker, and I truly do not like smoke in my face, but I would much rather sit next to someone smoking than to have the government continue to pick away at our freedoms. The people that are getting most upset about the ban, as I see it, are mainly upset at the restriction of freedom. They are worried about it for all of us, and what this kind of action means for society as a whole. For me, its less the about the subject, and more about the content of the act itself. I don’t want to wake up in a couple of years to a world where the government is telling me where to eat, what to eat, when to have children, how to look, what to say, when to say it, etc. You can laugh and say that I’m taking this too far, but these are the very things we need to think about when government starts restricting freedoms.

[jynxxxedangel]

It seems as though many people are responding to this topic with emotion first, and “The Big Picture” perspective second. I’m not a smoker, and I truly do not like smoke in my face, but I would much rather sit next to someone smoking than to have the government continue to pick away at our freedoms. The people that are getting most upset about the ban, as I see it, are mainly upset at the restriction of freedom. They are worried about it for all of us, and what this kind of action means for society as a whole. For me, its less the about the subject, and more about the content of the act itself. I don’t want to wake up in a couple of years to a world where the government is telling me where to eat, what to eat, when to have children, how to look, what to say, when to say it, etc. You can laugh and say that I’m taking this too far, but these are the very things we need to think about when government starts restricting freedoms.

Amen. Unfortunately, I'm out of brownie points to award, until midnight...

Also, if anyone knows anything about American history, they'll see that this country's financial stability was founded upon TOBACCO (as well as cotton and sugar). At first, the world was afraid of tobacco...then they LOVED it, WANTED it, and BOUGHT it by the bale.

[Hellion]

What Nightgaunt and Tszura said I so agree with,but wait for the

"Cap & Trade" policy takes affect, you thought things are bad now that carbon bullshit policy will really

turn this country into a fascist nation,imagine how many will

bitch about this,or actually go along with it(sheeple)

[n0Mad]

this country's financial stability was founded upon TOBACCO (as well as cotton and sugar).

Great. Now I have the song from 1776 stuck in my head, "Molasses to rum to slaves ...". Thanks.

[Slogo]

Amen. Unfortunately, I'm out of brownie points to award, until midnight...

Also, if anyone knows anything about American history, they'll see that this country's financial stability was founded upon TOBACCO (as well as cotton and sugar). At first, the world was afraid of tobacco...then they LOVED it, WANTED it, and BOUGHT it by the bale.

it was also founded on something else that can be smoked

[Slogo]

heh both...

Hearing a chick smoke (as in light up and inhale) is hawt... hearing their voice after words sounding like a Florida Death Metal singer... not so much.

[torn asunder]

so, for all of you people wanting more freedom, how would you feel if we removed the ban on asbestos insulation? let the builders decide if they want to use it, who cares if it causes mesothelioma or other cancers? i mean, who is the government to tell a builder how to build? and melamine in baby formula? hell, let's allow that too...

there's a reason the govt. does some things.

do you know what all is *in* cigarette smoke?

(taken from a different website)

In addition to tobacco, which contains nicotine, the following 599 ingredients have been identified in tobacco industry documents as being added to tobacco in the manufacturing of cigarettes by the five major American cigarette manufacturing companies.

* Acetanisole,

* Acetic Acid,

* Acetoin,

* Acetophenone,

* 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane,

* 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine,

* 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran,

* Acetylpyrazine,

* 2-Acetylpyridine,

* 3-Acetylpyridine,

* 2-Acetylthiazole,

* Aconitic Acid,

* dl-Alanine,

* Alfalfa Extract,

* Allspice Extract,

* Oleoresin,

* And Oil,

* Allyl Hexanoate,

* Allyl Ionone,

* Almond Bitter Oil,

* Ambergris Tincture,

* Ammonia,

* Ammonium Bicarbonate,

* Ammonium Hydroxide,

* Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic,

* Ammonium Sulfide,

* Amyl Alcohol,

* Amyl Butyrate,

* Amyl Formate,

* Amyl Octanoate,

* alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde,

* Amyris Oil,

* trans-Anethole,

* Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil,

* Anise,

* Anise Star, Extract and Oils,

* Anisyl Acetate,

* Anisyl Alcohol,

* Anisyl Formate,

* Anisyl Phenylacetate,

* Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins,

* Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate,

* 1-Arginine,

* Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil,

* Ascorbic Acid,

* 1-Asparagine Monohydrate,

* 1-Aspartic Acid,

* Balsam Peru and Oil,

* Basil Oil,

* Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil,

* Beeswax White,

* Beet Juice Concentrate,

* Benzaldehyde,

* Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal,

* Benzoic Acid, Benzoin,

* Benzoin Resin,

* Benzophenone,

* Benzyl Alcohol,

* Benzyl Benzoate,

* Benzyl Butyrate,

* Benzyl Cinnamate,

* Benzyl Propionate,

* Benzyl Salicylate,

* Bergamot Oil,

* Bisabolene,

* Black Currant Buds Absolute,

* Borneol,

* Bornyl Acetate,

* Buchu Leaf Oil,

* 1,3-Butanediol,

* 2,3-Butanedione,

* 1-Butanol,

* 2-Butanone,

* 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One,

* Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil,

* Butyl Acetate,

* Butyl Butyrate,

* Butyl Butyryl Lactate,

* Butyl Isovalerate,

* Butyl Phenylacetate,

* Butyl Undecylenate,

* 3-Butylidenephthalide,

* Butyric Acid,

* Cadinene,

* Caffeine,

* Calcium Carbonate,

* Camphene,

* Cananga Oil,

* Capsicum Oleoresin,

* Caramel Color,

* Caraway Oil,

* Carbon Dioxide,

* Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder,

* Carob Bean and Extract,

* beta-Carotene,

* Carrot Oil,

* Carvacrol,

* 4-Carvomenthenol,

* 1-Carvone,

* beta-Caryophyllene,

* beta-Caryophyllene Oxide,

* Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract,

* Cassia Bark Oil,

* Cassie Absolute and Oil,

* Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute,

* Cedar Leaf Oil,

* Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana,

* Cedrol,

* Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin,

* Cellulose Fiber,

* Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract,

* Chicory Extract,

* Chocolate,

* Cinnamaldehyde,

* Cinnamic Acid,

* Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract,

* Cinnamyl Acetate,

* Cinnamyl Alcohol,

* Cinnamyl Cinnamate,

* Cinnamyl Isovalerate,

* Cinnamyl Propionate,

* Citral,

* Citric Acid,

* Citronella Oil,

* dl-Citronellol,

* Citronellyl Butyrate,

* Citronellyl Isobutyrate,

* Civet Absolute,

* Clary Oil,

* Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract,

* Cocoa,

* Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder,

* Coconut Oil,

* Coffee,

* Cognac White and Green Oil,

* Copaiba Oil,

* Coriander Extract and Oil,

* Corn Oil,

* Corn Silk,

* Costus Root Oil,

* Cubeb Oil,

* Cuminaldehyde,

* para-Cymene,

* 1-Cysteine,

* Dandelion Root Solid Extract,

* Davana Oil,

* 2-trans, 4-trans-Decadienal,

* delta-Decalactone,

* gamma-Decalactone,

* Decanal,

* Decanoic Acid,

* 1-Decanol,

* 2-Decenal,

* Dehydromenthofurolactone,

* Diethyl Malonate,

* Diethyl Sebacate,

* 2,3-Diethylpyrazine,

* Dihydro Anethole,

* 5,7-Dihydro-2-Methylthieno(3,4-D) Pyrimidine,

* Dill Seed Oil and Extract,

* meta-Dimethoxybenzene,

* para-Dimethoxybenzene,

* 2,6-Dimethoxyphenol,

* Dimethyl Succinate,

* 3,4-Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione,

* 3,5- Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione,

* 3,7-Dimethyl-1,3,6-Octatriene,

* 4,5-Dimethyl-3-Hydroxy-2,5-Dihydrofuran-2-One,

* 6,10-Dimethyl-5,9-Undecadien-2-One,

* 3,7-Dimethyl-6-Octenoic Acid,

* 2,4-Dimethylacetophenone,

* alpha,para-Dimethylbenzyl Alcohol,

* alpha,alpha-Dimethylphenethyl Acetate,

* alpha,alpha Dimethylphenethyl Butyrate,

* 2,3-Dimethylpyrazine,

* 2,5-Dimethylpyrazine,

* 2,6-Dimethylpyrazine,

* Dimethyltetrahydrobenzofuranone,

* delta-Dodecalactone,

* gamma-Dodecalactone,

* para-Ethoxybenzaldehyde,

* Ethyl 10-Undecenoate,

* Ethyl 2-Methylbutyrate,

* Ethyl Acetate,

* Ethyl Acetoacetate,

* Ethyl Alcohol,

* Ethyl Benzoate,

* Ethyl Butyrate,

* Ethyl Cinnamate,

* Ethyl Decanoate,

* Ethyl Fenchol,

* Ethyl Furoate,

* Ethyl Heptanoate,

* Ethyl Hexanoate,

* Ethyl Isovalerate,

* Ethyl Lactate,

* Ethyl Laurate,

* Ethyl Levulinate,

* Ethyl Maltol,

* Ethyl Methyl Phenylglycidate,

* Ethyl Myristate,

* Ethyl Nonanoate,

* Ethyl Octadecanoate,

* Ethyl Octanoate,

* Ethyl Oleate,

* Ethyl Palmitate,

* Ethyl Phenylacetate,

* Ethyl Propionate,

* Ethyl Salicylate,

* Ethyl trans-2-Butenoate,

* Ethyl Valerate,

* Ethyl Vanillin,

* 2-Ethyl (or Methyl)-(3,5 and 6)-Methoxypyrazine,

* 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol, 3-Ethyl -2 -Hydroxy-2-Cyclopenten-1-One,

* 2-Ethyl-3, (5 or 6)-Dimethylpyrazine,

* 5-Ethyl-3-Hydroxy-4-Methyl-2(5H)-Furanone,

* 2-Ethyl-3-Methylpyrazine,

* 4-Ethylbenzaldehyde,

* 4-Ethylguaiacol,

* para-Ethylphenol,

* 3-Ethylpyridine,

* Eucalyptol,

* Farnesol,

* D-Fenchone,

* Fennel Sweet Oil,

* Fenugreek, Extract, Resin, and Absolute,

* Fig Juice Concentrate,

* Food Starch Modified,

* Furfuryl Mercaptan,

* 4-(2-Furyl)-3-Buten-2-One,

* Galbanum Oil,

* Genet Absolute,

* Gentian Root Extract,

* Geraniol,

* Geranium Rose Oil,

* Geranyl Acetate,

* Geranyl Butyrate,

* Geranyl Formate,

* Geranyl Isovalerate,

* Geranyl Phenylacetate,

* Ginger Oil and Oleoresin,

* 1-Glutamic Acid,

* 1-Glutamine,

* Glycerol,

* Glycyrrhizin Ammoniated,

* Grape Juice Concentrate,

* Guaiac Wood Oil,

* Guaiacol,

* Guar Gum,

* 2,4-Heptadienal,

* gamma-Heptalactone,

* Heptanoic Acid,

* 2-Heptanone,

* 3-Hepten-2-One,

* 2-Hepten-4-One,

* 4-Heptenal,

* trans -2-Heptenal,

* Heptyl Acetate,

* omega-6-Hexadecenlactone,

* gamma-Hexalactone,

* Hexanal,

* Hexanoic Acid,

* 2-Hexen-1-Ol,

* 3-Hexen-1-Ol,

* cis-3-Hexen-1-Yl Acetate,

* 2-Hexenal,

* 3-Hexenoic Acid,

* trans-2-Hexenoic Acid,

* cis-3-Hexenyl Formate,

* Hexyl 2-Methylbutyrate,

* Hexyl Acetate,

* Hexyl Alcohol,

* Hexyl Phenylacetate,

* 1-Histidine,

* Honey,

* Hops Oil,

* Hydrolyzed Milk Solids,

* Hydrolyzed Plant Proteins,

* 5-Hydroxy-2,4-Decadienoic Acid delta- Lactone,

* 4-Hydroxy-2,5-Dimethyl-3(2H)-Furanone,

* 2-Hydroxy-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One,

* 4-Hydroxy -3-Pentenoic Acid Lactone,

* 2-Hydroxy-4-Methylbenzaldehyde,

* 4-Hydroxybutanoic Acid Lactone,

* Hydroxycitronellal,

* 6-Hydroxydihydrotheaspirane,

* 4-(para-Hydroxyphenyl)-2-Butanone,

* Hyssop Oil,

* Immortelle Absolute and Extract,

* alpha-Ionone,

* beta-Ionone,

* alpha-Irone,

* Isoamyl Acetate,

* Isoamyl Benzoate,

* Isoamyl Butyrate,

* Isoamyl Cinnamate,

* Isoamyl Formate, Isoamyl Hexanoate,

* Isoamyl Isovalerate,

* Isoamyl Octanoate,

* Isoamyl Phenylacetate,

* Isobornyl Acetate,

* Isobutyl Acetate,

* Isobutyl Alcohol,

* Isobutyl Cinnamate,

* Isobutyl Phenylacetate,

* Isobutyl Salicylate,

* 2-Isobutyl-3-Methoxypyrazine,

* alpha-Isobutylphenethyl Alcohol,

* Isobutyraldehyde,

* Isobutyric Acid,

* d,l-Isoleucine,

* alpha-Isomethylionone,

* 2-Isopropylphenol,

* Isovaleric Acid,

* Jasmine Absolute, Concrete and Oil,

* Kola Nut Extract,

* Labdanum Absolute and Oleoresin,

* Lactic Acid,

* Lauric Acid,

* Lauric Aldehyde,

* Lavandin Oil,

* Lavender Oil,

* Lemon Oil and Extract,

* Lemongrass Oil,

* 1-Leucine,

* Levulinic Acid,

* Licorice Root, Fluid, Extract and Powder,

* Lime Oil ,

* Linalool,

* Linalool Oxide,

* Linalyl Acetate,

* Linden Flowers,

* Lovage Oil And Extract,

* 1-Lysine,

* Mace Powder, Extract and Oil ,

* Magnesium Carbonate,

* Malic Acid,

* Malt and Malt Extract,

* Maltodextrin,

* Maltol,

* Maltyl Isobutyrate,

* Mandarin Oil,

* Maple Syrup and Concentrate,

* Mate Leaf, Absolute and Oil,

* para-Mentha-8-Thiol-3-One,

* Menthol,

* Menthone,

* Menthyl Acetate,

* dl-Methionine,

* Methoprene,

* 2-Methoxy-4-Methylphenol,

* 2-Methoxy-4-Vinylphenol,

* para-Methoxybenzaldehyde,

* 1-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-1-Penten-3-One,

* 4-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-2-Butanone,

* 1-(para-Methoxyphenyl)-2-Propanone,

* Methoxypyrazine,

* Methyl 2-Furoate,

* Methyl 2-Octynoate,

* Methyl 2-Pyrrolyl Ketone,

* Methyl Anisate,

* Methyl Anthranilate,

* Methyl Benzoate,

* Methyl Cinnamate,

* Methyl Dihydrojasmonate,

* Methyl Ester of Rosin, Partially Hydrogenated,

* Methyl Isovalerate,

* Methyl Linoleate (48%),

* Methyl Linolenate (52%) Mixture,

* Methyl Naphthyl Ketone,

* Methyl Nicotinate,

* Methyl Phenylacetate,

* Methyl Salicylate,

* Methyl Sulfide,

* 3-Methyl-1-Cyclopentadecanone,

* 4-Methyl-1-Phenyl-2-Pentanone,

* 5-Methyl-2-Phenyl-2-Hexenal,

* 5-Methyl-2-Thiophenecarboxaldehyde,

* 6-Methyl-3,-5-Heptadien-2-One,

* 2-Methyl-3-(para-Isopropylphenyl) Propionaldehyde,

* 5-Methyl-3-Hexen-2-One,

* 1-Methyl-3Methoxy-4-Isopropylbenzene,

* 4-Methyl-3-Pentene-2-One,

* 2-Methyl-4-Phenylbutyraldehyde,

* 6-Methyl-5-Hepten-2-One,

* 4-Methyl-5-Thiazoleethanol,

* 4-Methyl-5-Vinylthiazole,

* Methyl-alpha-Ionone,

* Methyl-trans-2-Butenoic Acid,

* 4-Methylacetophenone,

* para-Methylanisole,

* alpha-Methylbenzyl Acetate,

* alpha-Methylbenzyl Alcohol,

* 2-Methylbutyraldehyde,

* 3-Methylbutyraldehyde,

* 2-Methylbutyric Acid,

* alpha-Methylcinnamaldehyde,

* Methylcyclopentenolone,

* 2-Methylheptanoic Acid,

* 2-Methylhexanoic Acid,

* 3-Methylpentanoic Acid,

* 4-Methylpentanoic Acid,

* 2-Methylpyrazine,

* 5-Methylquinoxaline,

* 2-Methyltetrahydrofuran-3-One,

* (Methylthio)Methylpyrazine (Mixture Of Isomers),

* 3-Methylthiopropionaldehyde,

* Methyl 3-Methylthiopropionate,

* 2-Methylvaleric Acid,

* Mimosa Absolute and Extract,

* Molasses Extract and Tincture,

* Mountain Maple Solid Extract,

* Mullein Flowers,

* Myristaldehyde,

* Myristic Acid,

* Myrrh Oil,

* beta-Napthyl Ethyl Ether,

* Nerol,

* Neroli Bigarde Oil,

* Nerolidol,

* Nona-2-trans,6-cis-Dienal,

* 2,6-Nonadien-1-Ol,

* gamma-Nonalactone,

* Nonanal,

* Nonanoic Acid,

* Nonanone,

* trans-2-Nonen-1-Ol,

* 2-Nonenal,

* Nonyl Acetate,

* Nutmeg Powder and Oil,

* Oak Chips Extract and Oil,

* Oak Moss Absolute,

* 9,12-Octadecadienoic Acid (48%) And 9,12,15-Octadecatrienoic Acid (52%),

* delta-Octalactone,

* gamma-Octalactone,

* Octanal,

* Octanoic Acid,

* 1-Octanol,

* 2-Octanone,

* 3-Octen-2-One,

* 1-Octen-3-Ol,

* 1-Octen-3-Yl Acetate,

* 2-Octenal,

* Octyl Isobutyrate,

* Oleic Acid ,

* Olibanum Oil,

* Opoponax Oil And Gum,

* Orange Blossoms Water, Absolute, and Leaf Absolute,

* Orange Oil and Extract,

* Origanum Oil,

* Orris Concrete Oil and Root Extract,

* Palmarosa Oil,

* Palmitic Acid,

* Parsley Seed Oil,

* Patchouli Oil,

* omega-Pentadecalactone,

* 2,3-Pentanedione,

* 2-Pentanone,

* 4-Pentenoic Acid,

* 2-Pentylpyridine,

* Pepper Oil, Black And White,

* Peppermint Oil,

* Peruvian (Bois De Rose) Oil,

* Petitgrain Absolute, Mandarin Oil and Terpeneless Oil,

* alpha-Phellandrene,

* 2-Phenenthyl Acetate,

* Phenenthyl Alcohol,

* Phenethyl Butyrate,

* Phenethyl Cinnamate,

* Phenethyl Isobutyrate,

* Phenethyl Isovalerate,

* Phenethyl Phenylacetate,

* Phenethyl Salicylate,

* 1-Phenyl-1-Propanol,

* 3-Phenyl-1-Propanol,

* 2-Phenyl-2-Butenal,

* 4-Phenyl-3-Buten-2-Ol,

* 4-Phenyl-3-Buten-2-One,

* Phenylacetaldehyde,

* Phenylacetic Acid,

* 1-Phenylalanine,

* 3-Phenylpropionaldehyde,

* 3-Phenylpropionic Acid,

* 3-Phenylpropyl Acetate,

* 3-Phenylpropyl Cinnamate,

* 2-(3-Phenylpropyl)Tetrahydrofuran,

* Phosphoric Acid,

* Pimenta Leaf Oil,

* Pine Needle Oil, Pine Oil, Scotch,

* Pineapple Juice Concentrate,

* alpha-Pinene, beta-Pinene,

* D-Piperitone,

* Piperonal,

* Pipsissewa Leaf Extract,

* Plum Juice,

* Potassium Sorbate,

* 1-Proline,

* Propenylguaethol,

* Propionic Acid,

* Propyl Acetate,

* Propyl para-Hydroxybenzoate,

* Propylene Glycol,

* 3-Propylidenephthalide,

* Prune Juice and Concentrate,

* Pyridine,

* Pyroligneous Acid And Extract,

*

* Pyrrole,

* Pyruvic Acid,

* Raisin Juice Concentrate,

* Rhodinol,

* Rose Absolute and Oil,

* Rosemary Oil,

* Rum,

* Rum Ether,

* Rye Extract,

* Sage, Sage Oil, and Sage Oleoresin,

* Salicylaldehyde,

* Sandalwood Oil, Yellow,

* Sclareolide,

* Skatole,

* Smoke Flavor,

* Snakeroot Oil,

* Sodium Acetate,

* Sodium Benzoate,

* Sodium Bicarbonate,

* Sodium Carbonate,

* Sodium Chloride,

* Sodium Citrate,

* Sodium Hydroxide,

* Solanone,

* Spearmint Oil,

* Styrax Extract, Gum and Oil,

* Sucrose Octaacetate,

* Sugar Alcohols,

* Sugars,

* Tagetes Oil,

* Tannic Acid,

* Tartaric Acid,

* Tea Leaf and Absolute,

* alpha-Terpineol,

* Terpinolene,

* Terpinyl Acetate,

* 5,6,7,8-Tetrahydroquinoxaline,

* 1,5,5,9-Tetramethyl-13-Oxatricyclo(8.3.0.0(4,9))Tridecane,

* 2,3,4,5, and 3,4,5,6-Tetramethylethyl-Cyclohexanone,

* 2,3,5,6-Tetramethylpyrazine,

* Thiamine Hydrochloride,

* Thiazole,

* 1-Threonine,

* Thyme Oil, White and Red,

* Thymol,

* Tobacco Extracts,

* Tochopherols (mixed),

* Tolu Balsam Gum and Extract,

* Tolualdehydes,

* para-Tolyl 3-Methylbutyrate,

* para-Tolyl Acetaldehyde,

* para-Tolyl Acetate,

* para-Tolyl Isobutyrate,

* para-Tolyl Phenylacetate,

* Triacetin,

* 2-Tridecanone,

* 2-Tridecenal,

* Triethyl Citrate,

* 3,5,5-Trimethyl -1-Hexanol,

* para,alpha,alpha-Trimethylbenzyl Alcohol,

* 4-(2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohex-1-Enyl)But-2-En-4-One,

* 2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohex-2-Ene-1,4-Dione,

* 2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohexa-1,3-Dienyl Methan,

* 4-(2,6,6-Trimethylcyclohexa-1,3-Dienyl)But-2-En-4-One,

* 2,2,6-Trimethylcyclohexanone,

* 2,3,5-Trimethylpyrazine,

* 1-Tyrosine,

* delta-Undercalactone,

* gamma-Undecalactone,

* Undecanal,

* 2-Undecanone, 1

* 0-Undecenal,

* Urea,

* Valencene,

* Valeraldehyde,

* Valerian Root Extract, Oil and Powder,

* Valeric Acid,

* gamma-Valerolactone,

* Valine,

* Vanilla Extract And Oleoresin,

* Vanillin,

* Veratraldehyde,

* Vetiver Oil,

* Vinegar,

* Violet Leaf Absolute,

* Walnut Hull Extract,

* Water,

* Wheat Extract And Flour,

* Wild Cherry Bark Extract,

* Wine and Wine Sherry,

* Xanthan Gum,

* 3,4-Xylenol,

* Yeast

[Nightgaunt]

so, for all of you people wanting more freedom, how would you feel if we removed the ban on asbestos insulation? let the builders decide if they want to use it, who cares if it causes mesothelioma or other cancers? i mean, who is the government to tell a builder how to build? and melamine in baby formula? hell, let's allow that too...

Again, the government is not given the power to regulate these things by the Constitution. Yes! Remove the ban on asbestos insulation! See how fast the builders that use it go out of business! That is how things are supposed to work.

[torn asunder]

ok, f**k it, no way i'm going to change anyone's mind; i officially give up...

[candyman]

Wow...thats alot of shit. Although my chemistry teacher in college liked to use cigarettes as an example for PPM and "quality vs. quantity".

Now...do YOU know what all those things are? Do you know how much of each is in a cigarette? Do you know what kind of harm they can cause if any? Do you know how much it takes of each one to cause harm? Do you know what the combustion process does to the chemical makeup of those chemicals present and if that provides and positive or negative aspects?

God...vanilla extract...THE HORROR! AND TOBACCO EXTRACTS! Those fuckers even put Raisin Juice Concentrate with Thyme Oil, both white and red, along with a dash of Orange Oil and Extract. Now I know for sure that Tobacco companies provide cancer and horrible taste in flavoring mixtures when it comes to cooking!

Its bad for me? Really? So is my beer, whiskey, potato chips, big fat juicy steaks, alot of things I run into while working on my car and other cars, shaving in the shower with no mirror, etc...

Also, asbestos insulation has little to do with this. Do you realize how many industrial building materials "cause cancer"...really they could just lead to and "cause" is being a little too firm here. Decent building codes, proper installation and maintenance, proper work equipment and attire, and the elimination of stupid people and workers would make asbestos insulation the most efficient insulation we have today...again. Now, in that list we are close to being responsible enough to handle asbestos again minus the human element. I mean it was the best material to use in brake pads EVER! Yes I do have a few sets of asbestos pads for a few of my cars...and I make a point of keeping them safe. Wetting stuff down is the first step. See, not that hard if you use you noodle around possibly harmful *everything* things!

[candyman]

Oh I forgot something...wouldn't those extracts make these cigarettes "flavored" in some way or another? I though we banned that crap!

[Nightgaunt]

ok, f**k it, no way i'm going to change anyone's mind; i officially give up...

Nice. Sorry we're so stupid.

The thing is, you didn't address any of the main points. All you did was remind us that smoking is unhealthy. Yes, it's obvious that you think that it's okay for the government to step outside its Constitutionally-limited bounds. I have yet to see a logical and reasoned argument as to why that should be and why each step in that direction does not open the door to future abuses of power.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Nightgaunt

[Slogo]

I take it most of you against this proposal wee also opposed to the "patriot" act. Since it was done to "protect" us.

[candyman]

I take it most of you against this proposal wee also opposed to the "patriot" act. Since it was done to "protect" us.

Seriously? Then yes...but I could list more proposals from Washington that I was and that I am against than there were chemicals on that list.

[StormKnight (1)]

Looking at the Constitution, specifically the Preamble;

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Questions regarding this:

1. "...common defence...": Against what? While we assume that it is defence against enemies of the people (i.e., foreign nations,) could it not also be extended to defence of the people against any threat, specifically, a health threat? While all food will harm you in excess, in moderate amounts it is healthy. Aside from some studies indicating it helping with certain mental illnesses, what is moderate amount of smoking, and what is the health benefit vs. the threat?

2. "...promote the general Welfare...": Welfare as in well-being? Taking care of our nation's people? Again, what does smoking do for well-being of the people, both who do smoke or who don't? Does it mean we take care of people, even despite the fact that the plant did fund and found the country, when we found out it was harmful in the amount that most people consume?

Depending on whether you take a broad interpretation (at the time of writing of the Constitution, a Federalist (e.g. Washington,) point of view,) versus a narrow interpretation (at the time of writing, a Democratic-Republican (e.g. Jefferson,) point of view,) the Constitutionality seems to vary from well within the power of the federal government, to highly dubious. If memory serves, if the narrow interpretation of the Constitution was followed, Jefferson, a Democratic-Republican, would have never been able to make the Louisiana Purchase, because buying land from a foreign power was not in the Constitution specifically, but the implied powers were *if* you take a broader interpretation of it. All this seems to happen before the Bill of Rights or the Amendments.

Now, I am not up to Constitutional Law and precedents of previous rulings, granted. I am not up on rulings of the Courts in either direction. And I don't know when to say when about the upper limits of restriction on this issue, and where it can or will end. However, it seems we jumped from point A to point O or P somewhere, like starting surgery by closing the skin before getting to the ruptured aorta that is killing the patient. Seeing precedents and interpretations by the Supreme Court on the topic is something I would like to be pointed to. I started from the beginning of the Constitution, as it seems to be the place where they are getting the justification. What do cases before the Supreme Court have to say about the law in question vs. Constitution violation, especially given the start of the Constitution itself? Is the whole Preamble just a statement of why, or goals to accomplish, or justification of action, or nothing of consequence?

[freydis]

It's not hard for me to understand where you're coming from. At my previous job, I had to breathe in polyvinylchloride fumes without a mask, stand in 3 inch deep water with non-wet-location-rated extension cords, and eat my lunch with toxic chemicals on my hands. I couldn't afford to quit, so I dealt with it.

If your place of business didnt follow safety laws and no one complained or called osha.... hmm.... There are actually laws in place that are supposed to ensure you a safe and healthy place to work.

[freydis]

Again, the government is not given the power to regulate these things by the Constitution. Yes! Remove the ban on asbestos insulation! See how fast the builders that use it go out of business! That is how things are supposed to work.

That response really shows how little you know about product safety laws and why they were put in place.

You are naievely confident in people being smart enough to figure out what ingrediants are used in something, or to even know to ask.

Companies are fat, corrupt institutions that only care if they kill people because there are laws that make them.

The general public only know about dangerous materials because these laws regulate safety.

[Rev.Reverence]

Hey every non-smoker...do you realize, that cancer, is just the natural way the human body dies?

It's totally documented, that cancer happens; whether or not you take in the carcinogens.

...do you also realize, that all that shit pumped into tobacco (as preservatives, & flavor aide), are NOT in all cigs...I believe that Marlboro, & Camel are the worst (non-menthol).

[candyman]

Hey every non-smoker...do you realize, that cancer, is just the natural way the human body dies?

It's totally documented, that cancer happens; whether or not you take in the carcinogens.

Yay I finally get to post this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLK6zh4uAUs

[Nightgaunt]

Looking at the Constitution, specifically the Preamble;

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Questions regarding this:

1. "...common defence...": Against what? While we assume that it is defence against enemies of the people (i.e., foreign nations,) could it not also be extended to defence of the people against any threat, specifically, a health threat? While all food will harm you in excess, in moderate amounts it is healthy. Aside from some studies indicating it helping with certain mental illnesses, what is moderate amount of smoking, and what is the health benefit vs. the threat?

The Supreme Court has stated that the Preamble is meant to bear witness to the fact that the Constitution emanates from the People and not from the states.(1) It does not confer any specific powers upon the government, but acts to convey the scope and nature of the document overall.(2) So, from the best of my understanding, this line on its own doesn't give Congress any power whatsoever. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution grants these powers to Congress:

Punishing piracy and crimes on the high seas;

Declaring war, issuing letters of marque and reprisal;

Raising and maintaining armies (with a two-year limitation on funds);

Raising and maintaining a navy;

Deciding how land and naval forces will be governed and regulated;

Calling on the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;

Providing for the organization, arming, and disciplining the militia, and governing any part of the militia that might be employed in the service of the Union, with certain aspects reserved for the individual states.

While I'm not a Constitutional scholar or a lawyer, I can't rattle off specific court cases that address broad interpretations of Congressional powers related to defense, I think that extending Congress' Section 8 powers to apply to a health threat is sketchy at best. I'm not trying to piss in your Cheerios; it's just that I can't find anything that would come close to supporting such an interpretation. If you can find anything (legal precedents, rulings, etc.), I'd be very interested.

2. "...promote the general Welfare...": Welfare as in well-being? Taking care of our nation's people? Again, what does smoking do for well-being of the people, both who do smoke or who don't? Does it mean we take care of people, even despite the fact that the plant did fund and found the country, when we found out it was harmful in the amount that most people consume?

The constitutional meaning of "welfare" is, to the best of my knowledge, health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. Again, the Preamble confers no power in and of itself. Promoting the general welfare is a broad concept, but we can look to Article I, Section 8, which states the powers of Congress. What we see there are things like regulating commerce, establishing post offices, and coining money. There is a power granted to Congress involving the progress of science, but this is limited to securing exclusive rights to discoveries for the discoverers or developers for a limited time. There is absolutely nothing granting Congress the power to regulate individual freedoms. Again, I'd be happy to be pointed to court cases addressing the "general welfare" concept.

All this seems to happen before the Bill of Rights or the Amendments.

The 9th Amendment states that just because a right (e.g. the right to consume tobacco or the right to not be forced to consume tobacco) is not specifically addressed doesn't mean the government can step in and take control of the issue. The 10th Amendment ensures that any and all powers not delegated to the 3 branches of government falls to the States an the People. If the power isn't specifically given, it cannot be exercised.

FOOTNOTES:

(1) McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 403 (1819) Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471 (1793); Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 324 (1816), and that it was made for, and is binding only in, the United States of America. Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 251 (1901); In re Ross, 140 U.S. 453, 464 (1891)

(2) Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905)

[Rev.Reverence]

*goes OUTSIDE for a cigarette*

...anybody else for a breath of fresh air?

[StormKnight (1)]

I'm not trying to piss in your Cheerios; it's just that I can't find anything that would come close to supporting such an interpretation. If you can find anything (legal precedents, rulings, etc.), I'd be very interested.

No offense taken. I just wanted to get the questions out there to those that can find references in either direction. Not being a Constitutional scholar myself, I want clarification, and insight on the precedents, if any. I understand it was initially designed with flexibility in mind, to adapt and change, and interpretation by the Supreme Court weigh in on how it is interpreted.

Personally, considering how much I have seen to support the sequella of smoking (oxygen supplementation, surgery, radiation treatments, cancer related to the toxins passing through the body, etc.,) I wouldn't lose sleep if the whole industry morphed into something that isn't just a cash crop. HOWEVER, that is my opinion only. I recognize that there is more than my opinion.

BTW: Kudos for the references. I wish there was more of it in this part of the forum.

Edited December 21, 2009 by StormKnight

[Nightgaunt]

If your place of business didnt follow safety laws and no one complained or called osha.... hmm.... There are actually laws in place that are supposed to ensure you a safe and healthy place to work.

Yes, there are. MIOSHA is so underfunded however, that it's a joke to the point that any individual company can expect a surprise inspection once every 65 years. Whenever an inspection was coming, we would have to clean up the plant and rearrange things to give the appearance of compliance. Whenever MIOSHA would come in to do a question and answer session, the company had management there to cut people off if the discussion began going in a direction they didn't like. Emails were dispatched to MIOSHA by disgruntled employees from time to time, but there was never any response. As usual, the governmental agency sucked up its funding and completely failed at its appointed task.

That response really shows how little you know about product safety laws and why they were put in place.

You are naievely confident in people being smart enough to figure out what ingrediants are used in something, or to even know to ask.

Companies are fat, corrupt institutions that only care if they kill people because there are laws that make them.

The general public only know about dangerous materials because these laws regulate safety.

On the contrary, I am acutely aware of the depths of stupidity and complacency that my countrymen and -women have sunk to. Corporations, when they reach a certain size, become amoral juggernauts that would think nothing of committing wholesale slaughter if they thought it would fatten their bottom line. There is a book by Max Barry called "Jennifer Government" in which a future incarnation of the Nike Corporation actually has kids murdered as they leave the store with the latest shoe model in order to increase demand for the product. I think that without watchdogs, that kind of scenario could become reality.

Having said all that, I don't believe that government agencies and programs are the answer. They become bloated and ineffectual, serving only to squeeze more and more money from the population. In an America where the Constitution was scrupulously adhered to (with Congress acting only within the cage that the Constitution was meant to keep it in), nonprofit and/or citizen groups would keep the corporations from running out of control. With the abolition of the Constitutionally-forbidden unapportioned income tax and the abolition of the Federal Reserve (Congress resuming its Constitutionally-given task of coining money), people would have plenty of money to support organizations like this. It would be much like things were before the government starting mucking around with health care. Obviously, I'm aware that none of this is going to happen. Things are going to keep wobbling along until the government collapses under its own weight and we'll finally be the serfs in service to a despot like we've been trained to be for the last couple of generations. Everything I've talked about in this thread has been in that spirit. I'm trying to point out how very, very far we've gotten from what the Founders intended. It's to the point that people just accept draconian things like the Patriot Act(s), income tax, and Federal Reserve as mete and good and quintessentially American. The CNN anchorbimbo shows us a little cleavage and we smile and nod. The good-looking young anchordork shows us just the right exp​ression of compassion and caring and we take comfort in the knowledge that everything is being done for our own good. Aaaah.

We have taken the phrase "You can't fight City Hall," and incorporated it into our very being and we've reached the point where we're beginning to pay the price. Our children and grandchildren will reap the whirlwind.

**Edited for grammar.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Nightgaunt

[Rev.Reverence]