Pat Robertson blames Haitian earthquake

[pomba gira]

Does the fact that there is historical evididence that the people of Haiti did infact make a "deal with the Devil" factor in to anything?

No. Even if there were.

[Slogo]

But folklore is folklore. Most things IMO from 2,000+ years ago are folklore.

The definition of Folklore is

1. the traditional beliefs, legends, customs, etc., of a people; lore of a people.

2. the study of such lore.

3. a body of widely held but false or unsubstantiated beliefs.

source: Dictionary.com Unabridged

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

Just because some "folklore" said it was true doesn't mean it is.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." ~ Marcello Truzzi

[phee]

An argument could be made that the bible is folklore.... but that is for another thread I think. Folklore does not equal history... unless you are talking about the history of folklore.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Ah so hardcore to the point of being conspiracy nuts eh? Always fun on either camp that.

So you are saying that the fact (because it is a fact) that the religion there is as such (voodooish) and the fact that the old testament does of course contain a very wrathful god in parts (cities into salt, killing of first born, etc...) Makes what Robertson is saying... more um... well I don't want to speak for you.

And the above is based on an assumption that these people are ignorant to this... Do you have proof that they are ignorant to these facts? Or is this simply an opinion? Because if it is simply an opinion that generalizes the "They" in your statement, then I think that might be a bit of an over generalization... But since you did not specify... The "They" in your statement, who are you referring to? The Liberal Underground folks? DGN? might help if that were clearer.

To a true beleiver there is a God and there is a Devil. A pact with the Devil is something very real to them. The Wrath of God is very real to them. My point was context. We are talking about two groups of beleivers. Thier specific beleifs line up enough to come into play. The Hatian's, by thier own admission, performed some ritual way back when. There are records of it happening. It's not really known if a Satanic ritual took place or if it was just a big ritual to get the slaves whipped into a killing frenzy. It doesn't really matter as we are talking about beleif. 200 year slater they became a Democracy.

It fits the stlye of an Old Testament beat down.

Don't get me wrong. I don't for a second beleive it was. I just can't stand to see people wish harm and death on someone for having a view of the world they don't like. It's hatefull, mean, small minded and totally lacks the concept of Religious Tolerance.

Now answer me this phee.... Did you know there actually something to what the asshole said?

[TitsMcGee]

As a Christian, Pat Robertson makes me sick. The man just needs to crawl into his hole and die. I wish I could donate something to help the people of Haiti, but I can't. The most I can do is pray for those who are left behind who now have to rebuild their who lives.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Reading Gaf, yeah, we forget that the Christian god actually condoned slavery, even when it was used against his own people. So that whenever a slave population has a nocturnal religious event and then inflicts the same maltreatment to which they were subject on their enslavers (you know, rape, torture, and pillaging) instead of bringing a mighty famine and hightailing it through the desert and a sea, it must be the Satan with whom they made a pact. /sarcasm

Likely to be true: there was a religious event prior to the riots at Bois Caiman. More likely reasons for the slaves' success: they outnumbered their captors eight to one, and after the all out massacre of the rioting men at Bois Caiman, some 200,000 slaves revolted en masse kicking those decadent French fannies as far out to sea as possible.

I don't think it likely, Gaf, that the Haitians made a pact against Christian men for the control of Haiti...by virtue of the historical likelihood that the slaveowners of Haiti were Christian in name only. Their treatment of their fellow man in chains was wholly despicable. I think that if there is a god, whose side he was on is anyone's guess.

[Oh my, I am virtually quaking with anger right now. Freaky.]

Edited January 15, 2010 by taysteewonderbunny

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

OK, I have read the transcript of his show... What exactly did he say that was so offensive?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

oh my god... have you heard/read about Danny Glover's statements? He claims this earthquake was Gaia's response to the climate summit in Copenhagen.

[Rev.Reverence]

Reading Gaf, yeah, we forget that the Christian god actually condoned slavery, even when it was used against his own people. So that whenever a slave population has a nocturnal religious event and then inflicts the same maltreatment to which they were subject on their enslavers (you know, rape, torture, and pillaging) instead of bringing a mighty famine and hightailing it through the desert and a sea, it must be the Satan with whom they made a pact. /sarcasm

Likely to be true: there was a religious event prior to the riots at Bois Caiman. More likely reasons for the slaves' success: they outnumbered their captors eight to one, and after the all out massacre of the rioting men at Bois Caiman, some 200,000 slaves revolted en masse kicking those decadent French fannies as far out to see as possible.

I don't think it likely, Gaf, that the Haitians made a pact against Christian men for the control of Haiti...by virtue of the historical likelihood that the slaveowners of Haiti were Christian in name only. Their treatment of their fellow man in chains was wholly despicable. I think that if there is a god, whose side he was on is anyone's guess.

[Oh my, I am virtually quaking with anger right now. Freaky.]

...& what did they go see???

..I got YOU!

[pomba gira]

An argument could be made that the bible is folklore.... but that is for another thread I think. Folklore does not equal history... unless you are talking about the history of folklore.

Thank you.

Reading Gaf, yeah, we forget that the Christian god actually condoned slavery, even when it was used against his own people. So that whenever a slave population has a nocturnal religious event and then inflicts the same maltreatment to which they were subject on their enslavers (you know, rape, torture, and pillaging) instead of bringing a mighty famine and hightailing it through the desert and a sea, it must be the Satan with whom they made a pact. /sarcasm

Likely to be true: there was a religious event prior to the riots at Bois Caiman. More likely reasons for the slaves' success: they outnumbered their captors eight to one, and after the all out massacre of the rioting men at Bois Caiman, some 200,000 slaves revolted en masse kicking those decadent French fannies as far out to see as possible.

I don't think it likely, Gaf, that the Haitians made a pact against Christian men for the control of Haiti...by virtue of the historical likelihood that the slaveowners of Haiti were Christian in name only. Their treatment of their fellow man in chains was wholly despicable. I think that if there is a god, whose side he was on is anyone's guess.

[Oh my, I am virtually quaking with anger right now. Freaky.]

+100

OK, I have read the transcript of his show... What exactly did he say that was so offensive?

Equating Yoruba-based beliefs (or any non-Christian beliefs for that matter) with "making a pact with Satan" is offensive.

Blaming the victim is always deeply offensive... especially when the victims in question are supposedly being punished for a putative event that happened 200 years before any of them were born.

The whole fire & brimstone trip is offensive in itself, to those of us who know true Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ in their daily lives.

[Slogo]

What I believed happened was the sudden release of energy in the Earth's crust that creates seismic waves.

[taysteewonderbunny]

...& what did they go see???

..I got YOU!

You did! Ima fixin itt nao!

[taysteewonderbunny]

What I believed happened was the sudden release of energy in the Earth's crust that creates seismic waves.

That, to me, seems a most logical conclusion, sir. Kudos!

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Equating Yoruba-based beliefs (or any non-Christian beliefs for that matter) with "making a pact with Satan" is offensive.

Blaming the victim is always deeply offensive... especially when the victims in question are supposedly being punished for a putative event that happened 200 years before any of them were born.

The whole fire & brimstone trip is offensive in itself, to those of us who know true Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ in their daily lives.

If it were not for the fact that the Haitians say they made a deal with the Devil I would be right there with you. And maybe... just maybe... if the people if Haiti had kept thier religion pure and not merged it with Catholisim people would not get confused and think they had Catholic beleifs.

You really need to either watch the show in question or read teh transcript. He at no time blames the people of Haiti for this. What he does do is tell the horrible history of Haiti and the horrible conditions the people of Haiti have had to suffer. What people are throwing fits about is him saying that it seems like they were cursed in thier early history because they have suffered so much for the last 200 years. He never says they WERE cursed or that God did this as punishment. What he did say was these people have suffered for 200+ years and deserve every bit of help we can give them.

[pomba gira]

You really need to either watch the show in question or read teh transcript. He at no time blames the people of Haiti for this. What he does do is tell the horrible history of Haiti and the horrible conditions the people of Haiti have had to suffer. What people are throwing fits about is him saying that it seems like they were cursed in thier early history because they have suffered so much for the last 200 years. He never says they WERE cursed or that God did this as punishment. What he did say was these people have suffered for 200+ years and deserve every bit of help we can give them.

I have. Both. Before this thread was even posted, in fact. And as I see it he did every single thing you are saying he didn't. He does not say that it SEEMS they were cursed, he directly implies that this tragedy is the result of the "pact with the devil". There is absolutely no space for trying to be charitable about what he was "really" trying to say, given that he has repeated this theme regarding several other major disasters.

[Der Nister]

There's nothing like old folklore to spark controversy.

Seems unlikely that something some people did hundreds of years ago (made a 'pact' with the devil..alrighty then) would just now be getting God's wrath.

Wouldn't God just let them suffer for turning away from God's love?

Didn't jesus die for "all of man's sins"?

Why would God single people out?

I just love it when assholes spew b.s. to the public based on a 2,000 y.o. book but fail to remember that others have actually read it and can spot the b.s.

[Slogo]

I just love it when assholes spew b.s. to the public based on a 2,000 y.o. book but fail to remember that others have actually read it and can spot the b.s.

And...studies show...those who don't believe it are usually more well read on the subject

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

"And, you know, Kristi, something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, “We will serve you if you will get us free from the French.” True story. And so, the devil said, “OK, it’s a deal.”

And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It’s cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to God. And out of this tragedy, I’m optimistic something good may come. But right now, we’re helping the suffering people, and the suffering is unimaginable."

I don't see it. What I see is someone talking truthfully about the last 200 years of history in Haiti. 200 years of war, revolution, invasion, despots and dictators. I see him saying that because of this long list of sufferiong we need to do everything we can to help these people.

[Rev.Reverence]

I for one, can hear the condescending tone in his voice....

...if you can not hear it, just watch anything this guy ever recorded.

.....he is always condescending, to anything different from him...his brand of charity, is an insult & does NOT seem to me, to come from Christ in any way shape or form.

[Der Nister]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh the wisdom of PR, here's a few good ones from the kook himself.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city,".

This was in response to Dover Pennsylvania voters decision to eject all of their school board members for their pro-creationist agenda

"Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up,"

he said in criticism of the State Department during a "700 Club" interview in October 2003

"If they look over the course of 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of the consensus that's held our country together is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings,"

he told ABC news in May 2005 when asked whether 'activist' judges were more of a threat to the U.S. than terrorists

I am so thankful for his wisdom, guidence and love for humanity through these tough times.

Pat is truely practicing the teachings of his lord Jesus by condeming those that have strayed.

Wait, Jesus said to love thy neighbor and pray for thy enemy.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......anywhoz.

It's not the hatred in Pat's mind and heart that we should focus on, it's how he reaches out to those that have strayed from God's love.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...........oops.

I can't help ya Pat.

[Msterbeau]

I have. Both. Before this thread was even posted, in fact. And as I see it he did every single thing you are saying he didn't. He does not say that it SEEMS they were cursed, he directly implies that this tragedy is the result of the "pact with the devil". There is absolutely no space for trying to be charitable about what he was "really" trying to say, given that he has repeated this theme regarding several other major disasters.

[taysteewonderbunny]

Crap. I had a really good essay going. I hit one button and the whole thing came undone. I'll post again once I've rewritten it in Word. Drat it.

[Rev.Reverence]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh the wisdom of PR, here's a few good ones from the kook himself.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city,".

This was in response to Dover Pennsylvania voters decision to eject all of their school board members for their pro-creationist agenda

"Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up,"

he said in criticism of the State Department during a "700 Club" interview in October 2003

"If they look over the course of 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of the consensus that's held our country together is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings,"

he told ABC news in May 2005 when asked whether 'activist' judges were more of a threat to the U.S. than terrorists

I am so thankful for his wisdom, guidence and love for humanity through these tough times.

Pat is truely practicing the teachings of his lord Jesus by condeming those that have strayed.

Wait, Jesus said to love thy neighbor and pray for thy enemy.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......anywhoz.

It's not the hatred in Pat's mind and heart that we should focus on, it's how he reaches out to those that have strayed from God's love.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...........oops.

I can't help ya Pat.

...I wouldn't even try to back him.....he's one of those that thinks WE are all Devil Worshipers... ..I'll leave HIM, to fall.

[candyman]

I am actually glad that there is such a storm over what Pat said...even though it should not have surprised anyone and should have been ignored in view of the situation. If he had not been heard and Danny Glover would have gotten more attention the the Global Warming Cult would have created far more panic and paranoia than we need. I am also very happy that nobody blames Bush, Obama, or Clinton...it seems that we have finally figured out that natural disasters are not brought about in other countries by our president just so that he can do nothing about it.

Look, this guy said something stupid...cool. Now, let us count the number of people that took him seriously...THIS MANY! (I was holding up one finger)

Let us look at what can help. Maybe what this guy said doesn't mean shit in the whole scheme of things. Maybe other Christian groups, like Builders for Christ, don't give a shit and have already gone down there to rebuild. Also, the evil United States Military has gone down there to provide aid and were down there first and were the only people providing aid that were actually READY to provide aid and had the proper equipment and training to provide aid.

People on TV will say stupid shit...and I relate Pat to my cat Tiggs because when he wants attention he starts to piss everyone off until he get what he wants.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I am actually glad that there is such a storm over what Pat said...even though it should not have surprised anyone and should have been ignored in view of the situation. If he had not been heard and Danny Glover would have gotten more attention the the Global Warming Cult would have created far more panic and paranoia than we need. I am also very happy that nobody blames Bush, Obama, or Clinton...it seems that we have finally figured out that natural disasters are not brought about in other countries by our president just so that he can do nothing about it.

Look, this guy said something stupid...cool. Now, let us count the number of people that took him seriously...THIS MANY! (I was holding up one finger)

Let us look at what can help. Maybe what this guy said doesn't mean shit in the whole scheme of things. Maybe other Christian groups, like Builders for Christ, don't give a shit and have already gone down there to rebuild. Also, the evil United States Military has gone down there to provide aid and were down there first and were the only people providing aid that were actually READY to provide aid and had the proper equipment and training to provide aid.

People on TV will say stupid shit...and I relate Pat to my cat Tiggs because when he wants attention he starts to piss everyone off until he get what he wants.

You apparently missed the AP story comparing Obama's response to this with Bush's response to Katrina... which they should have pulled because it was wrong.