Toyota halts sales of 8 models

[Simon Bar Sinister]

sticky-icky-icky accelerators. read more at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35086922/ns/business-autos

[candyman]

Its funny that this should happen because the amount of mechanical parts in their pedals is very minimal...they don't even physically connect to the component they control anymore just like the steering wheel. Well, at least it was a small mechanical issue and not a horrible failure in the redundant sensor systems...can't wait for something like that to happen... *cough* GM *cough*

[Head Wreck]

not only GM candyman, Ford tried introducing the Ford Explorer here a few years back but quickly recalled them due to accelerators sticking and vehicles going out of control and colliding with items such as immobile rebar pillars. The result, sales bombed and the only US ford people tend to buy now are ford rangers (when not buying their cheaper Mazda equivalent), quite a few people didnt want thier explorers back after it had been fixed.

better to be safe than sorry and replace them before incidents occur.

similar with Peugeot and Fiat a few years back on Peugeot expert/Citroen Dispatch/Fiat Scudo a suspect problem with a weld on the manual transmission shifter, so they all got recalled, the mechanic twated the lever with a heavy mallet

if it broke, it was replaced with a one piece. very little broke but some did, better than than the commercial industry slate the model even though its successor was 2 years away

[candyman]

not only GM candyman, Ford tried introducing the Ford Explorer here a few years back but quickly recalled them due to accelerators sticking and vehicles going out of control and colliding with items such as immobile rebar pillars. The result, sales bombed and the only US ford people tend to buy now are ford rangers (when not buying their cheaper Mazda equivalent), quite a few people didnt want thier explorers back after it had been fixed.

better to be safe than sorry and replace them before incidents occur.

similar with Peugeot and Fiat a few years back on Peugeot expert/Citroen Dispatch/Fiat Scudo a suspect problem with a weld on the manual transmission shifter, so they all got recalled, the mechanic twated the lever with a heavy mallet

if it broke, it was replaced with a one piece. very little broke but some did, better than than the commercial industry slate the model even though its successor was 2 years away

Yeah Ford did make some mistakes too...but I like to pick on GM more. We got to work with a prototype Ford throttle that they were going to put on the new Mustang but couldn't because of electrical issues. I don't think that this was and issue so much as is was a horrible failure that would have killed many drivers. Heavy acceleration, done my many Mustang owners, made both of the redundant sensors freak and the went to full-throttle with no way to bring it down except for hooking up a computer and killing it. Even though it makes me happy as a mechanic and an engineer to advance things a little I really hate to see so much of the actual control leaving the hands and feet of the driver. Redundant sensor systems are cool and all but...I don't need all the computer equipment and shit to work on an old cable running from the pedal to the component...just a few hand tools and some grease.

[Head Wreck]

agree. i like hitting things with a wrench to fix (as the land rover owners here in the 2003 big game chuckled when the humvee's were down for most of the event due to gremlins).

but i like the ability with my Peugeot, and my friends Peugeot's to plug in the laptop and say "yes injector 3 is dud" and confirm with multimeter. my friend at the time was looking at a twin coilpack replacement.

i think its pro and con.

as we look more and more into alternative drivetrains, such as in wheel motors from the likes of michelen and Volvo (Volvo's system looks economic btw, and michelen's system is good for the home-builders who don't know suspension geometry that well) we may be going more in the drive by wire route. the smaller Mercedes Unimogs here already have wire guided steering and advantages being the steering and pedals can be changed from the regular side to the curb side for applications like roadside tree/hedgegrow trimming. the reliability of Mog's have not suffered.

just as long as they don't do the clanger GM does by putting plastic selector togles on the gearbox end of the linkage (facepalm)

[candyman]

agree. i like hitting things with a wrench to fix (as the land rover owners here in the 2003 big game chuckled when the humvee's were down for most of the event due to gremlins).

but i like the ability with my Peugeot, and my friends Peugeot's to plug in the laptop and say "yes injector 3 is dud" and confirm with multimeter. my friend at the time was looking at a twin coilpack replacement.

i think its pro and con.

as we look more and more into alternative drivetrains, such as in wheel motors from the likes of michelen and Volvo (Volvo's system looks economic btw, and michelen's system is good for the home-builders who don't know suspension geometry that well) we may be going more in the drive by wire route. the smaller Mercedes Unimogs here already have wire guided steering and advantages being the steering and pedals can be changed from the regular side to the curb side for applications like roadside tree/hedgegrow trimming. the reliability of Mog's have not suffered.

just as long as they don't do the clanger GM does by putting plastic selector togles on the gearbox end of the linkage (facepalm)

Oh yes I do love doing work with the laptop on a few things. If it were not for that my 1991 Prelude's engine would fly apart due to the extensive modifications I did to it in the shop. Granted I am working with tuning but it is close to what I use on normal Hondas...but a little more challenging sometimes.

Ahh...wheel motors would be awesome especially if they made it cost effective to do it yourself. And suspension geometry is not THAT hard it just takes time. A small diesel generator and a couple or wheel motors could be very nice as long as American car companies are not allowed to use them...as they would make important pieces out of plastic...or use the wrong damn grade of aluminum when the report CLEARLY stated the three grades that met the specifications.

I guess I will just have to keep buying and restoring cars from the early days that get better gas mileage than the current ones. And yeah who doesn't laugh at Hummers that try to compete? Its a GM product so the front end is going to fail at anything but normal driving...but it makes tractor pulls and rock crawls interesting.

[Head Wreck]

Oh yes I do love doing work with the laptop on a few things. If it were not for that my 1991 Prelude's engine would fly apart due to the extensive modifications I did to it in the shop. Granted I am working with tuning but it is close to what I use on normal Hondas...but a little more challenging sometimes.

Ahh...wheel motors would be awesome especially if they made it cost effective to do it yourself. And suspension geometry is not THAT hard it just takes time. A small diesel generator and a couple or wheel motors could be very nice as long as American car companies are not allowed to use them...as they would make important pieces out of plastic...or use the wrong damn grade of aluminum when the report CLEARLY stated the three grades that met the specifications.

I guess I will just have to keep buying and restoring cars from the early days that get better gas mileage than the current ones. And yeah who doesn't laugh at Hummers that try to compete? Its a GM product so the front end is going to fail at anything but normal driving...but it makes tractor pulls and rock crawls interesting.

the ones on site were ex militry (as were tyhe landies, the M35's the helecopters and an ex rangers chevy blazer)

as to diesels.

I honestly cant see why they aren't being used any more.

high pressure common rail systems now are very efficient, over here we are taxed by emissions and my lump of French diesel costs about as much to tax as a smart 2 seater city car and cheaper than ford fiestas which I believe they want to tote out there now

[candyman]

the ones on site were ex militry (as were tyhe landies, the M35's the helecopters and an ex rangers chevy blazer)

as to diesels.

I honestly cant see why they aren't being used any more.

high pressure common rail systems now are very efficient, over here we are taxed by emissions and my lump of French diesel costs about as much to tax as a smart 2 seater city car and cheaper than ford fiestas which I believe they want to tote out there now

I believe there is some evil work keeping the diesel cars out of the market...but that may just be me...I think it has to do with the ability of the individual to home brew his own stuff for an insanely low price.

I got to drive a diesel Civic once...almost shit my pants at its performance because I did not expect it to be like that. Even the trucks I work on for truck pulls are so much better than your average gas engine today. Sure the mileage is way down when you run 4 turbos with a massive rail and two stage pumps but the street setups are VERY nice too.

Now with Toyota taking a hit like this I believe it is time for Honda to get the Civic GX out to ALL of America instead of just California...which I think is another conspiracy...

[Simon Bar Sinister]

I believe there is some evil work keeping the diesel cars out of the market...but that may just be me...I think it has to do with the ability of the individual to home brew his own stuff for an insanely low price.

no...just market research. Americans still think "smelly and dirty" when they hear the word diesel. Ford has a car called the EcoNetic that seats 5 (europeans...more like 3.4 Americans, lol) and gets 65 miles/gallon that they're not even thinking of selling over here because of that attitude. :(

[Rev.Reverence]

not only GM candyman, Ford tried introducing the Ford Explorer here a few years back but quickly recalled them due to accelerators sticking and vehicles going out of control and colliding with items such as immobile rebar pillars. The result, sales bombed and the only US ford people tend to buy now are ford rangers (when not buying their cheaper Mazda equivalent), quite a few people didnt want thier explorers back after it had been fixed.

better to be safe than sorry and replace them before incidents occur.

similar with Peugeot and Fiat a few years back on Peugeot expert/Citroen Dispatch/Fiat Scudo a suspect problem with a weld on the manual transmission shifter, so they all got recalled, the mechanic twated the lever with a heavy mallet

if it broke, it was replaced with a one piece. very little broke but some did, better than than the commercial industry slate the model even though its successor was 2 years away

[Head Wreck]

*bows*

yes a lot of the UK tuning scene has gone to remapped diesels. some even replacing the turbos for supers.

my car is rated for 64 miles to one British gallon. the trip computer puts mine realistic at 55, but i do live in a hilly region, and on straight and flat with a good road it can reach 90+ mpg as it trundles along at 40 mph.

accelerating, well average i get 40mpg, but for gonzo booting it i have gotten in late tweens. no differant than a good small gas engine.

the Peugeot diesels are good motors and pretty bombproof, Ford uses them but for some reason the same engines installed on a peugeot are much more "green"

take the Ford Fiesta 1.4 diesel, its emissions are in a tax banding that hems it in as £125 a year

my Car is a 2004 Peugeot 307

same engine but with an added particle filter

emissions cost me £35 a year which has some of my ford fiesta driving collegues livid as thier small green car isnt as green as my larger car

Edited January 28, 2010 by Head Wreck

[candyman]

no...just market research. Americans still think "smelly and dirty" when they hear the word diesel. Ford has a car called the EcoNetic that seats 5 (europeans...more like 3.4 Americans, lol) and gets 65 miles/gallon that they're not even thinking of selling over here because of that attitude. :(

Well yeah that to...but in the auto industry you blame everything on California hating anything that they don't like for any reason they can think of...which pretty much sums it all up anyways. They see one thing that is slightly "dirty" and think that nothing can change that. If we really want to free ourselves from oil that has got to stop. Ethanol is just shit and hydrogen probably wont appear in anything marketable, mostly price wise, anytime before I get to step foot on the Enterprise as the warp core technician. Damn California government has labeled almost anything associated with vehicles to cause cancer...

[candyman]

*bows*

yes a lot of the UK tuning scene has gone to remapped diesels. some even replacing the turbos for supers.

my car is rated for 64 miles to one British gallon. the trip computer puts mine realistic at 55, but i do live in a hilly region, and on straight and flat with a good road it can reach 90+ mpg as it trundles along at 40 mph.

accelerating, well average i get 40mpg, but for gonzo booting it i have gotten in late tweens. no differant than a good small gas engine.

the Peugeot diesels are good motors and pretty bombproof, Ford uses them but for some reason the same engines installed on a peugeot are much more "green"

take the Ford Fiesta 1.4 diesel, its emissions are in a tax banding that hems it in as £125 a year

my Car is a 2004 Peugeot 307

same engine but with an added particle filter

emissions cost me £35 a year which has some of my ford fiesta driving collegues livid as thier small green car isnt as green as my larger car

Ooooo...I want to drive that!

Haven't you learned anything about America? We take all the good ideas from Europe and copy them here...but we turn them into complete shit first. For example, we are getting a "high speed" train that goes 100 mph! MY FUCKING 1991 HONDA DOES BETTER THAN THAT! With gas and speeding tickets I will take my car instead. So don't let us borrow any of your engines from now on...just cut yourselves off before we do something worse.

Must be easier mapping a street diesel in a car than a pulling diesel in some of the trucks I work with. Jesus it would be nice to work with those parameters. I am trying to find the money to stuff a Kubota diesel into a Ford Ranger so I can have a damn light duty diesel.

Damn...I am moving to Europe purely for the vehicles and the food...and maybe some of the women I met in Latvia...

[angry_darkness]

I am glad this happened to toyota, they have been covering this up for a year. people have been killed due to this problem. all they care about is money not public safety.

[candyman]

I am glad this happened to toyota, they have been covering this up for a year. people have been killed due to this problem. all they care about is money not public safety.

You really can't say for sure that they were covering anything up. It did kill people but considering the number of vehicles affected it wasn't that much. With that in mind you have to go into the process to determine what the actual cause is. Driver error is a big possibility. Being a Japanese company it really is hard to condemn your parts. I worked for a while with R&D which includes parts testing among other things...Toyota and Honda have the strictest standards around today...no question about it. They would never let shit like this go by if they knew which makes it even harder to put blame on the company. If this was really a HUGE problem it would have come out in testing and would have been fixed right away.

Yes it is about money...that is the whole damn reason that these companies exist...since when did profit become evil we all go for it don't we? Again, with the number of vehicles affected they couldn't snap their fingers and stop everything because it is a potential killer move. If ANY car companies care about safety Toyota ranks up there among the top. The standards that they have helped set are some of the best and it is a damn shame that the engineering schools have to teach us the shit that GM and Ford use while you have to pay extra just to take a TWO YEAR course on Japanese and European standards...when learning American standards only takes a semester. Oh and try getting certified to work at a Toyota associated dealership...Bob and Larry don't stand a damn chance.

Sorry about that rant...but being an auto mechanic in this economy is hard enough without this shit. Toyota isn't the only thing affected by this. I though that people were dicks about repairs before this...now it's hard to change a fucking air freshener without being accused or a scam, breaking something, and all that other crap. These are very complicated machines and there alot of them out there...expect problems, yes you could die, and chances are your mechanic really hates you. Because of the way business is I only make $40 a week on flat rate...now we are wondering what this will do to the industry now that one of the good companies got a black eye. Toyota is helping to keep shit afloat if you haven't noticed...kick them too hard and they really won't give a fuck.

[angry_darkness]

I ran Japanese engines in an independent test lab on a dyno for durability also with alot of American engines.The Japanese engines are not any better than the American ones. One thing I did notice is the power rating on some of the Japanese engines were alot less then they advertised. Subaru was the worse, their 300 hp sti engine only made 240hp

Edited January 30, 2010 by angry_darkness

[Msterbeau]

I ran Japanese engines in an independent test lab on a dyno for durability also with alot of American engines.The Japanese engines are not any better than the American ones. One thing I did notice is the power rating on some of the Japanese engines were alot less then they advertised. Subaru was the worse, their 300 hp sti engine only made 240hp

If by "better" you mean horsepower... They may or may not. Are you measuring HP and torque at the wheels or on a engine stand at the flywheel? If you mean quality and refinement, they have absolutely kicked domestic engines asses. The smoothness of some of their engines is often far better. As is often the case, domestics apply NVH band-aids after the fact rather than designing them in. Their reliability has also been unquestioningly better for a long time. Domestics are finally catching up.

[Head Wreck]

Japanese ratings are usually lower than the actual when they have been tested here. and the difference between the flywheel and after the gearbox is enough to offset.

this is why i think Toyota's hybrid drive system is wasteful (and proven so by the BBC show Top Gear) why get a motor to turn a generator, to power a motor that still goes through a gearbox. its just more loss on a system, where direct in wheel systems may have some mechanical gearing but may not be as wasteful as a full gearbox.

today actually my mother has been looking for a car for herself, recently diesels have been available with automatics, but Citroen seem to favour the semi-automatic "sequential" gearboxes and she is most impressed. a 1.4 diesel with "floppy paddles" to shift takes a whole lot of strain of her clutch foot and arthritic hands

on the note of hybrid systems. The route michelen and Volvo are taking are to do away with the mechanical shifter altogether and rely solely on regulation of the drive motors. its agreed that most fuel economy goes out the window on start and stop driving, so an engine turning at a consistant speed to power a battery source or wheels is better, and when starting off from a red light the extra oomph needed can be drawn from the cells and over time replenished by the generators excess energy at the next red light. A computer can regulate the right amount of RPM for the average trip and over time driving habbits are learned and calculated to set a more ideal RPM for the drivers start and stop habits. Volvo's system in fact is designed to recuperate some of the energy loss under braking (not sure how).

small diesels have improved a lot over recent years.

my previous car was a Peugeot 106 old school diesel, 1.5 litre capacity and about 45 bhp at the flywheel. the car was about the size and weight of the fiesta. the current motor is a 1.4 common rail turbocharged produces 70 bhp at the flywheel. unsure if they did any alternative ECU maps like they did with the 2 litre in my van (90, 110, 120, 150 bhp outputs i nearly went with a blue 150 bhp model. but 70bhp does me well)

diesels have always been better under load due to the higher torque outputs. so running a small generator will be ideal.

[Head Wreck]

RE: american engines.

they have a FAR from good reputation over here.

the rover K series is known to be more reliable.

early BMW Mini's with the chrysler engines were known to explode randomly a few minutes after patrking up and being switched off. as well as the usual "chrysler eat the turbo/compressor and dump all engine oil down the tailpipe"

[Head Wreck]

ps either of my lottery tickets come up

in 1.6 diesel plz

[Head Wreck]

on a note, Peugeot will release its RCZ with a 2 litre 163 bhp diesel option.

and peugeot had developed but not released a diesel hubrid

In January 2006 What Car? reported that Peugeot has designed a diesel-electric hybrid engine for the 307 that can achieve 83 miles per imperial gallon (3.4 L/100 km; 69 mpg-US). The vehicle is in the concept stages. In addition, a diesel-electric hybrid, unlike gas-electric vehicles, could be totally independent of oil since pure biodiesel can theoretically be used in any diesel engine.

Peugeot confirmed the vehicle.

[candyman]

I ran Japanese engines in an independent test lab on a dyno for durability also with alot of American engines.The Japanese engines are not any better than the American ones. One thing I did notice is the power rating on some of the Japanese engines were alot less then they advertised. Subaru was the worse, their 300 hp sti engine only made 240hp

I ran Japanese engines too since those are what I build. The only time American engines were better in any way was when they were either built in our shot with high quality parts and precision machining...or if it was the occasional Viper engine or something where the average person will never own one. Newer Japanese engines will have a lower power rating...unless you run your test cell like they do which is way different than the norm over here. Never had a problem with an STI engine either...on the dyno and at the rally they always beat the American 4 bangers...remember a dyno counts for something but one company having more HP on the dyno is not going to make their engines better. If Dodge, Ford, and GM spent as much time and money on their DD stuff as they do with their special applications or their NASCAR sections they would be all set.

American motors are catching up because they are making copies of what Japan and Europe have already done. However, when it comes to emissions they have a long way to go...and the same goes for gas mileage. The Hondas that I own from the '88-'94 range still get better gas mileage and cleaner exhaust than American engines on average...the same goes for the AE86 engines and some of the Mazda stuff.

Bashing Toyota for something like a gas pedal that they didn't even produce when they can manage to make all that they have work is kinda weak. Honestly, I do hate some of the systems that Toyota holds on to but other than that they take 2ND place to Honda in my book...maybe if Ford brought back the Flathead with newer metallurgy and machining they could get a better rep...

[Head Wreck]

agreed.

tbh this is toyotas first major scare that i can think of.

ford have racked up 2 that i can think of on the top of my head (Ford Explorer, Ford Pinto) of which ford begrudgingly moved to modify or discontinue.

as far as Europeans are concerned. BMW engines are not what their cracked up to be, the BMW engines in the land rovers barely have enough power to get the truck over the centre hump of the lift without gunning the engine (and possibly prompting a front end, tool chest and rebar wall sandwich). Peugeot-Citreon have cracking diesels, but only recently caught up with their gas engines (they used BMW sourced for a brief stint on larger engines aside from V6 models). Renault are just plain inconvenient (pull the wheel arch liner off and reach in and feel around for the headlamp bulbs to replace). Opel cars run dirty diesels (they really are behind the times) and do stupid things like use plastic for selector linkages, and a friend is scrapping her 7 year old opel astra (Saturn Astra) because the crank bearings are so badly gone everyone notices when she pulls into work. Mercedes had a bad run with galvanisation in mid 90's which nearly destroyed thier loyalty base.

fiats....

we dont see many fiats over 9 years old on the road. my frinds 12 year old fiat coupe was just 2 years of "WTF is wrong with it now" and came with service history of a new cyl head fuel rail turbo and ECU being changed after 11 months.

a lot of cars have thier flaws. the toyotas i have owned in the past were awsome

[candyman]

Ah but Ford also had that problem with their Triton engine series. They really messed up on the surface finish especially since the heads were aluminum and the block was iron...quite a few of them did a number on those poor little gaskets but it gave us something to do in the machine shop.

Never knew that the BMW engines were that bad...granted I have not worked with many stock BMW engines so I can't really say for sure.

And yeah Toyota kicks ass and I have been trying to get my friend to buy a Honda but he won't let go of his Corolla...which I really want because that hatch tears it up with that new NA setup. Also, with his new pedals there is NO worry about them getting stuck...although I doubt they had that problem in the late 80's. Although Toyota is kinda lacking with the rest of the crowd with their inability to match the small power pack that is in the S2000 when in stock trim...and in 1989 my Prelude out maneuvered everyone on the track...no we have the K series and you should all quiver in fear!

[TitsMcGee]

I think I just learned more about cars reading this thread than I ever wanted to. Carry on.