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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness are unalienable....and yet were still denied to a large group of people by our Forefathers.

Slavery in the United States was a form of unfree labor which existed as a legal institution on American soil before the founding of the United States in 1776, and remained a legal feature of American society until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1865.

lets take a look at how "equal" everyone is according to our Forefathers

George Washington

"In 1796 Oney (or Ona) Judge ran away to New Hampshire.She was one of GW’s slaves - Martha’s personal servant. President GW asked the Treasury Secretary and a customs agent for help in getting her back, by force, if necessary"

George Washington used the Treasury Secretary to retrieve one of his slaves....by force if necessary.

Thomas Jefferson

"TJ inherited many slaves. His wife brought a dowry of more than 100 slaves, and he purchased many more throughout his life. At some points he was one of the largest slaveowners in Virginia. "

Not only are they used as OBJECTS in a dowry, Jefferson is known to be one of the largest slave owners in Virginia, if not all of Colonial American History.

"In 1790 TJ gave his newly married daughter and her husband 1000 acres of land and 25 slaves."

And here he is, giving 25 people away like they were cattle.

James Madison

"A general emancipation of slaves ought to be 1. gradual. 2. equitable & satisfactory to the individuals immediately concerned. 3. consistent with the existing & durable prejudices of the nation... To be consistent with existing and probably unalterable prejudices in the U.S. freed blacks ought to be permanently removed beyond the region occupied by or alloted to a White population."

OMFG....not only was he a slave owner, but he declared that the release of slaves should be a slow process...and then also declared that they should be in an area far away from the White Population.

John Taylor

"(God) works most inscrutably to the understandings of men; - the negro is torn from Africa, a barbarian, ignorant and idolatrous; he is restored civilized, enlightened, and a Christian."

Wow...if I have to point out what is wrong here, we are all blind

James Polk

"A slave dreads the punishment of stripes (i.e. whipping) more than he does imprisonment, and that description of punishment has, besides, a beneficial effect upon his fellow-slaves."

The beating of a slave is BENEFICIAL to his fellow slaves.

Millard Fillmore

"God knows that I detest slavery, but it is an existing evil, for which we are not responsible, and we must endure it, and give it such protection as is guaranteed by the constitution."

Hates slavery....but then turns around and says that slavery is a RIGHT protected by the Constitution...but we are not responsible for it.....

Looks like "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" and "That all men are created equal" doesn't include African Americans....or as our Forefathers put it, the negro. So..at the time they WROTE the damn thing...they were hypocritical in their writings, as they not only defended slavery, but many encouraged it by buying more slaves.

"Slavery is a form of forced labour in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages."

You let me know where Slavery = Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness; All men are created equal.

I won't hold my breath.

Edited by IsleofRhodesEnt
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Oh. My. God.

I never knew that wealthy people owned slaves a long time ago.

You are diverting the argument about whether or not we have rights into a castigation of those who participated in the barbaric institution of slavery.

It doesn't bloody matter that slaves weren't considered human in the 18th Century for the purposes of this discussion. It has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the idea of natural rights. Afro-Americans fought for the recognition of their rights and won, just like those evil men in frock coats you loathe so much.

You have stated your beliefs quite well. You believe that any rights you may have derive from the consent of the government. You believe that the government can take away any rights it sees fit, when it sees fit to do so. You refuse to entertain any arguments to the contrary and are capable only of angry outbursts, insults, and bitter sarcasm.

All your talk of the injustices of slavery is for naught, for you believe yourself to be little better than a slave yourself. You believe that you live only on the sufferance of government officials. The fruit of your labor is yours only as long as your master says you can have it. I admit that this mindset is completely alien to me and it does sadden me to see someone so beaten and broken down.

Liberty sir, begins in the mind, not on a sheet of parchment, and certainly not at the word of a king. I hope that one day, that bright spark catches light in your own soul and you see yourself at last not as a number, but as a free human being.

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Oh. My. God.

I never knew that wealthy people owned slaves a long time ago.

You are diverting the argument about whether or not we have rights into a castigation of those who participated in the barbaric institution of slavery.

It doesn't bloody matter that slaves weren't considered human in the 18th Century for the purposes of this discussion. It has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the idea of natural rights. Afro-Americans fought for the recognition of their rights and won, just like those evil men in frock coats you loathe so much.

You have stated your beliefs quite well. You believe that any rights you may have derive from the consent of the government. You believe that the government can take away any rights it sees fit, when it sees fit to do so. You refuse to entertain any arguments to the contrary and are capable only of angry outbursts, insults, and bitter sarcasm.

All your talk of the injustices of slavery is for naught, for you believe yourself to be little better than a slave yourself. You believe that you live only on the sufferance of government officials. The fruit of your labor is yours only as long as your master says you can have it. I admit that this mindset is completely alien to me and it does sadden me to see someone so beaten and broken down.

Liberty sir, begins in the mind, not on a sheet of parchment, and certainly not at the word of a king. I hope that one day, that bright spark catches light in your own soul and you see yourself at last not as a number, but as a free human being.

+1000

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I'm broken on the issue.

1. I believe guns should be allowed

2. I believe guns should only be allowed for me and those I deem worthy (along with movable printed type and computers...and chopsticks...OH! And I get free ribs wherever I go)

That is my manifesto

And that blowjob/chocolate thing that phee told me about in another thread

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I'm broken on the issue.

1. I believe guns should be allowed

2. I believe guns should only be allowed for me and those I deem worthy (along with movable printed type and computers...and chopsticks...OH! And I get free ribs wherever I go)

That is my manifesto

And that blowjob/chocolate thing that phee told me about in another thread

He may be a despot, but he's a lovable despot. :laugh:

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You can be a despotic king.

If I were in charge, there'd be an oligarchy composed of those DGNers I find totally awesome. I, of course, would have to be first among equals. It's just how I roll.

I'd give you New Zealand and Darque Metallion would be Pope.

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Oh. My. God.

I never knew that wealthy people owned slaves a long time ago.

You are diverting the argument about whether or not we have rights into a castigation of those who participated in the barbaric institution of slavery.

It doesn't bloody matter that slaves weren't considered human in the 18th Century for the purposes of this discussion. It has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the idea of natural rights. Afro-Americans fought for the recognition of their rights and won, just like those evil men in frock coats you loathe so much.

You have stated your beliefs quite well. You believe that any rights you may have derive from the consent of the government. You believe that the government can take away any rights it sees fit, when it sees fit to do so. You refuse to entertain any arguments to the contrary and are capable only of angry outbursts, insults, and bitter sarcasm.

All your talk of the injustices of slavery is for naught, for you believe yourself to be little better than a slave yourself. You believe that you live only on the sufferance of government officials. The fruit of your labor is yours only as long as your master says you can have it. I admit that this mindset is completely alien to me and it does sadden me to see someone so beaten and broken down.

Liberty sir, begins in the mind, not on a sheet of parchment, and certainly not at the word of a king. I hope that one day, that bright spark catches light in your own soul and you see yourself at last not as a number, but as a free human being.

so your a racist?

You claim that we have Natural rights, but then say that it doesn't matter that slaves weren't considered human. Pick one or the other...and that goes for you and Gaf. Either all men are created equal, and we have natural rights as sentient beings, or the Forefathers didn't really give a rats ass about anyone who wasn't white, and therefore spit a buncha shyt on paper to cover THEIR European descended asses.

You don't know JACK SHIT of what I believe. The Bill of Rights is a declaration of what PRIVILAGES we have as American Citizens, and if you don't realize that, then you live in a damn fantasy land.

I can have a mindset that I can fly and shit cookies too, but it doesn't make it real.

For all your talk of rights, have you ever been pulled out of a line for a "Random Security Check"?

I have, and all they had to base the selection on was my last name, which is Hungarian. I know this because a man from Eastern Europe, A family of Mennonites whose last name was Polish in nature, and myself were the only ones removed from the line. All of us are American Citizens, and yet our belongings were searched without provocation or warrant.

Liberty can live in the mind, but it won't save a slave from getting the flesh flayed from his skin with a whip, traded like cattle to someone else, or tracked down with force should he choose to "pursue his happiness".

At the Timeframe, and for a long time afterwords, that the Framers wrote those documents, the only men that were created equal or had rights were of European descent. There was no thought of any other skin color in the words "All men are created equal" or when the Bill of Rights were created.

If it WAS about natural rights, then why were slaves allowed at all, or some of the founding fathers even say anything like they did on the subject?

It's almost cute how you still hold onto the idea that the Forefathers had some kind of grand divination when they wrote those documents, but since I've already clued you into the fact that they did NOT, and only looked after themselves in that respect, I unfortunately have to break some more things to you

Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny are fake.

The majority of the Framers were Hypocrites.

Tupac and Elvis are dead.

Not everyone that works at Dell are Indian.

I'm sorry I had to break that too you...I know it's going to take alot to come to terms with reality. I am sure you can find some kind of counseling.

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so your a racist?

You claim that we have Natural rights, but then say that it doesn't matter that slaves weren't considered human. Pick one or the other...and that goes for you and Gaf. Either all men are created equal, and we have natural rights as sentient beings, or the Forefathers didn't really give a rats ass about anyone who wasn't white, and therefore spit a buncha shyt on paper to cover THEIR European descended asses.

You don't know JACK SHIT of what I believe. The Bill of Rights is a declaration of what PRIVILAGES we have as American Citizens, and if you don't realize that, then you live in a damn fantasy land.

I can have a mindset that I can fly and shit cookies too, but it doesn't make it real.

For all your talk of rights, have you ever been pulled out of a line for a "Random Security Check"?

I have, and all they had to base the selection on was my last name, which is Hungarian. I know this because a man from Eastern Europe, A family of Mennonites whose last name was Polish in nature, and myself were the only ones removed from the line. All of us are American Citizens, and yet our belongings were searched without provocation or warrant.

Liberty can live in the mind, but it won't save a slave from getting the flesh flayed from his skin with a whip, traded like cattle to someone else, or tracked down with force should he choose to "pursue his happiness".

At the Timeframe, and for a long time afterwords, that the Framers wrote those documents, the only men that were created equal or had rights were of European descent. There was no thought of any other skin color in the words "All men are created equal" or when the Bill of Rights were created.

If it WAS about natural rights, then why were slaves allowed at all, or some of the founding fathers even say anything like they did on the subject?

It's almost cute how you still hold onto the idea that the Forefathers had some kind of grand divination when they wrote those documents, but since I've already clued you into the fact that they did NOT, and only looked after themselves in that respect, I unfortunately have to break some more things to you

Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny are fake.

The majority of the Framers were Hypocrites.

Tupac and Elvis are dead.

Not everyone that works at Dell are Indian.

I'm sorry I had to break that too you...I know it's going to take alot to come to terms with reality. I am sure you can find some kind of counseling.

Dude you are making a horrible argument...mostly because you are confusing the standards of the people that lived in one time to the people alive today. Not only were you not alive then which means you have no clue...they are not alive today so their thinking has not "progressed" if you consider all that we have done to be "progress". You want to compare stuff that doesn't belong in the argument? Fine. Look at the propellants used back in the 60's and 70's that they found to be "not harmful" to the environment. Due to their lack of understanding because of how long it takes to react and the fact that their equipment and experience was "limited" compared to ours they did something wrong...only they really didn't because they are trying to do the right thing but could not because of the limits that they could not control...

Shit does not always go the right way as fast as you would like it to...life is not McDonalds it is life and even if you don't want pickles on your burger life will probably put the fucking pickles on because it feels like it.

Forgive me if anything in there was mean or my spelling was off a bit...this post was sponsored by Miller High Life...

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You can be a despotic king.

If I were in charge, there'd be an oligarchy composed of those DGNers I find totally awesome. I, of course, would have to be first among equals. It's just how I roll.

I'd give you New Zealand and Darque Metallion would be Pope.

i'd rather have iceland

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Dude you are making a horrible argument...mostly because you are confusing the standards of the people that lived in one time to the people alive today. Not only were you not alive then which means you have no clue...they are not alive today so their thinking has not "progressed" if you consider all that we have done to be "progress". You want to compare stuff that doesn't belong in the argument? Fine. Look at the propellants used back in the 60's and 70's that they found to be "not harmful" to the environment. Due to their lack of understanding because of how long it takes to react and the fact that their equipment and experience was "limited" compared to ours they did something wrong...only they really didn't because they are trying to do the right thing but could not because of the limits that they could not control...

Shit does not always go the right way as fast as you would like it to...life is not McDonalds it is life and even if you don't want pickles on your burger life will probably put the fucking pickles on because it feels like it.

Forgive me if anything in there was mean or my spelling was off a bit...this post was sponsored by Miller High Life...

I really don't think that he understands that black people were not, according to the science of the time, considered human back then. What confuses me is how exactly knowing history makes someone a racist.

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I really don't think that he understands that black people were not, according to the science of the time, considered human back then. What confuses me is how exactly knowing history makes someone a racist.

and I want to know how anyone can claim that the Framers made the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights like they knew what was going to happen in 200+ years, which is what has been claimed.

I understand that black people were not considered human back then....but Nightgaunt did claim that the Bill of Rights was a list of natural rights, which were ours as sentient beings, did he not? The science at the time DID acknowledge that they were sentient beings, though I honestly think that your blaming early colonial science for the fault of early European-birthed American racism. If thats the case, black people fell into the category of sentient beings, which according to Nightguant are covered by the Bill of Rights, even back then, and yet the Bill of Rights did not extend to them.

So pick something: Either it's a list of natural rights to all sentient beings, or it's a list of privileges handed down from the government to it's citizens.

Also, those rights didn't extend fully to women either at the time, so were women not considered fully human back then?

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. I am reading that appearantly the Framers were so foreward thinking that they made documents that they covered all foreseeable problems in the future, but yet science at the time didn't consider many of the worlds races as being human...something even the Framers followed. So how are you going to create a document to cover the asses of all human beings, when your only ideal of something being human is European-stock Caucasian?

You want to talk about grasping at straws when all of you are sitting at a Denny's somewhere, sipping on the same juice from the same glass. Glass was empty along time ago, and yet none of you have bothered ordering anything else.

Next your gonna try to convince us that Columbus was the first European to discover American soil, because the Vikings landing in Northern Canada pre-date the "age of discovery".

Oooo...did Magellan sail all away around the world too?

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I know plenty about the American Revolution, the Framers, and Colonial America.

Your putting powdered sugar all over them for no reason.

No, I am keeping context in mind. I am remembering that the sins of the father are not the sins of the son. I am not willing to throw out all the good the Founders created because they happen to have lived in the times they did.

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I'll try one last time to help you to understand. Either you're not thinking about what you read here, or you're only quickly scanning what others write. I will do my best to use small words and define any terms that I think could possibly be misunderstood.

so your a racist?

No, I am not a racist. You really, really don't want to go there with me. I had a feeling at the time I wrote that, that you'd misconstrue my words and label me a racist. That sort of thing just seems to be your style.

Here is what I said:

It doesn't bloody matter that slaves weren't considered human in the 18th Century for the purposes of this discussion.

(Bold added, because it's an important qualifier.)

Here's what you said in response to that statement:

You claim that we have Natural rights, but then say that it doesn't matter that slaves weren't considered human.

A few more statements you made:

At the Timeframe, and for a long time afterwords, that the Framers wrote those documents, the only men that were created equal or had rights were of European descent. There was no thought of any other skin color in the words "All men are created equal" or when the Bill of Rights were created.

If it WAS about natural rights, then why were slaves allowed at all, or some of the founding fathers even say anything like they did on the subject?

It's almost cute how you still hold onto the idea that the Forefathers had some kind of grand divination when they wrote those documents, but since I've already clued you into the fact that they did NOT, and only looked after themselves in that respect, I unfortunately have to break some more things to you

You substituted a semantically similar proposition in order to more easily refute what I said. That's a straw man argument and it is a logical fallacy. At the time, slaves were not considered fully human. In the minds of the people at the time, they did not fall under the purview of the phrase "all men are created equal". The subhumanity of black people was scientific fact at the time. It was as obvious to the people at the time as the idea of carbon dioxide being detrimental to the earth is to people of our time. 200 years hence, people will wonder and shake their heads at our stupidity. I say that it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion because we now know that there is no speciation of homo sapiens sapiens. We understand that every human being falls under the purview of the phrase "all men are created equal". "All men" refers to the "race of Man", Mankind, Humanity. Male, female, black, brown, red, white, yellow, gay, transgendered, straight, bisexual, tall, short, fat, thin, whatever. It doesn't matter that the Framers believed that black people weren't to be classified as human. We understand now. Are you pickin' up what I'm layin' down? Just because the Founding Fathers had an erroneous idea of what makes us human does not mean the the phrase, "All men are created equal" is erroneous. What is at issue is an idea, a concept, not the people that put forth that idea or they way in which they applied it. The government did not decide to extend rights to African Americans; we, as a people gained insight. I really don't know how to explain it any better.

You don't know JACK SHIT of what I believe. The Bill of Rights is a declaration of what PRIVILAGES we have as American Citizens, and if you don't realize that, then you live in a damn fantasy land.

I was able to extrapolate what you seem to believe from your many statements. You have stated time and time again that we have no natural rights - really, no rights at all. You contend that there are merely privileges and that those privileges extend only to American citizens. Following that logic, if the Bill of Rights is a mere list of privileges that the government gives us, then the government can take away those privileges as well. If you can be told what you can and can't do through the granting or rescinding of privileges, then you are a slave. You rant and rave about how horrible slavery was (and it was horrible), yet you promote a point of view that would place every American in bondage.

I can have a mindset that I can fly and shit cookies too, but it doesn't make it real.

Flying and shitting cookies are physical impossibilities. What we're talking about here is the concept of Liberty. I said that Liberty begins in the mind. I thought that that was fairly self-explanatory. What I meant was that unless you think of yourself as being free, you never will be. As long as you believe that Liberty comes only at the sufferance of others, you will be a slave in your own mind. It is, in effect, saying, "I am not a sovereign human being; other men decide what is best for me." This Republic grew from an idea, a concept, a mindset. In the end, ideas are all that matter, for they shape our perceptions and guide our actions.

For all your talk of rights, have you ever been pulled out of a line for a "Random Security Check"?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I have. I have also been harassed by police who tried to violate my rights. I stood up for my rights and avoided having them violated, as is my Constitutional duty. Because I am free in mind and spirit, I have the balls to stand up to an authority that tries to overstep its bounds. If someday I am thrown in prison for exercising my rights, I will still be free, secure in the knowledge that the powers that be fear me because I will not bend. I understand that my Liberty is worth fighting for, must be fought for, that nothing is more dear than freedom. I fight for the cause of Liberty every day of my life by engaging people in discussions concerning the government's current and past abuses of power, by distributing materials that inform the public, by, as Samuel Adams said, setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. I fight by studying history and learning the lessons such activity provides. I believe that unless we are all free, none of us are.

Have things gone horrifically awry in the United States? Hell, yes! Does the government now ignore the Constitution with impunity? Hell, yes! It's gotten so bad that the Great Unwashed has actually started to stir from its perch on the couch of complacency. We are living in the most extraordinary time since the founding of this Republic and it is my belief that in the next few years, we will see it transformed utterly. Whether these changes will be for good or ill remains to be seen. For now, it is enough that my response to "1984" will always be "1776, motherfucker."

I have done my best to explain things in as many different ways and in the simplest terms possible. At this point, the discussion has become onerous and I am moving on. I suspect you will take my lack of attention from here on out as a victory on your part. More power to ya.

And hey, tell the next cop you allow to do a cavity search on you that I said, "Hi."

**Edited for formatting.

Edited by Nightgaunt
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Meh...the last two control points that I was stopped at made me pull over for a search...they found really nasty clothes from my wilderness adventure, rocks, and one time they actually found my lost lighter which made me really happy. Who cares about the reason...oh and I even had my rifle, shotgun, and large knives with me in the trunk and they just looked over them with no problems.

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No, I am not a racist. You really, really don't want to go there with me. I had a feeling at the time I wrote that, that you'd misconstrue my words and label me a racist. That sort of thing just seems to be your style.

Oh snap...I have to testify...this is not somewhere you want to go with this man...you can at best, end up getting ripped a new one from me personally.

...endoffuckingsubject.

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Here's an excellet example of what I'm talking about:

It's a good thing the agents were able to confiscate and destroy that tape since the Fourth Amendment is only a privilege which can be revoked at any time, and I'm certainly glad that video was not allowed to be posted on YouTube since the First Amendment can be given to us or taken from us at the whim of the government.

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I'll try one last time to help you to understand. Either you're not thinking about what you read here, or you're only quickly scanning what others write. I will do my best to use small words and define any terms that I think could possibly be misunderstood.

No, I am not a racist. You really, really don't want to go there with me. I had a feeling at the time I wrote that, that you'd misconstrue my words and label me a racist. That sort of thing just seems to be your style.

and the same thing was done when I said that, due to our society's socialogical profiling of women in our culture, that we were not ready for a Female president....and then got called a femenist, by none less then Gaf "Sarah Palin is a Milf" THWT and his "cronies", because I stated the OBVIOUS....welcome to the game, NG. So I WILL go there with you, and have.

Here is what I said:

(Bold added, because it's an important qualifier.)

Here's what you said in response to that statement:

A few more statements you made:

You substituted a semantically similar proposition in order to more easily refute what I said. That's a straw man argument and it is a logical fallacy. At the time, slaves were not considered fully human. In the minds of the people at the time, they did not fall under the purview of the phrase "all men are created equal". The subhumanity of black people was scientific fact at the time. It was as obvious to the people at the time as the idea of carbon dioxide being detrimental to the earth is to people of our time. 200 years hence, people will wonder and shake their heads at our stupidity. I say that it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion because we now know that there is no speciation of homo sapiens sapiens. We understand that every human being falls under the purview of the phrase "all men are created equal". "All men" refers to the "race of Man", Mankind, Humanity. Male, female, black, brown, red, white, yellow, gay, transgendered, straight, bisexual, tall, short, fat, thin, whatever. It doesn't matter that the Framers believed that black people weren't to be classified as human. We understand now. Are you pickin' up what I'm layin' down? Just because the Founding Fathers had an erroneous idea of what makes us human does not mean the the phrase, "All men are created equal" is erroneous. What is at issue is an idea, a concept, not the people that put forth that idea or they way in which they applied it. The government did not decide to extend rights to African Americans; we, as a people gained insight. I really don't know how to explain it any better.

Even after the freeing of the slaves, African Americans did not have anything near the rights that Euro-Caucasian America did, up into the 1950's and 60's..hell, even to some degree now. And it wasn't just the African Americans. The Irish, Chinese, Mexican, and Native Americans all expierianced similar things, and NONE of them underwent the horrible ordeal of slavery that the African Americans did.

So no, I don't take your "excuse" to be anything but erronous, because we now have done it to many people of Arabic descent, or those of the Muslim faith since 9-11. What did we learn, besides to "change the target now and then." I used the singular example of the African American Slavery simply because it is the most prominent. So whats your arguement now, because that one doesn't fly.

I was able to extrapolate what you seem to believe from your many statements. You have stated time and time again that we have no natural rights - really, no rights at all. You contend that there are merely privileges and that those privileges extend only to American citizens. Following that logic, if the Bill of Rights is a mere list of privileges that the government gives us, then the government can take away those privileges as well. If you can be told what you can and can't do through the granting or rescinding of privileges, then you are a slave. You rant and rave about how horrible slavery was (and it was horrible), yet you promote a point of view that would place every American in bondage.

It's a terrible catch 22, isn't it? Double Edged sword...but its the reality of it. We are bound by our Citizenship. Those rights are only given to us as Citizens, not as human beings. Take away our Citizenship, and you take away what we believe are our rights. Yeah, it's a bondage deal...your damn right. But to loose Citzenship puts us in a worse perdicament: we don't belong. If you don't belong, your not protected against anything. Have you seen "Terminal" with Tom Hanks? based on a real story, and unfortunately, those kinds of flaws in the system exist, but it goes to show what happens when your not considered a citizen anymore. Luckily he was in an area that provided him "international sanctuary", which is not easy to find, and few places count as (no, not all airports are considered international)

Flying and shitting cookies are physical impossibilities. What we're talking about here is the concept of Liberty. I said that Liberty begins in the mind. I thought that that was fairly self-explanatory. What I meant was that unless you think of yourself as being free, you never will be. As long as you believe that Liberty comes only at the sufferance of others, you will be a slave in your own mind. It is, in effect, saying, "I am not a sovereign human being; other men decide what is best for me." This Republic grew from an idea, a concept, a mindset. In the end, ideas are all that matter, for they shape our perceptions and guide our actions.

I understand your point, but in the reality of it is that I can THINK all I want, but reality will not change.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I have. I have also been harassed by police who tried to violate my rights. I stood up for my rights and avoided having them violated, as is my Constitutional duty. Because I am free in mind and spirit, I have the balls to stand up to an authority that tries to overstep its bounds. If someday I am thrown in prison for exercising my rights, I will still be free, secure in the knowledge that the powers that be fear me because I will not bend. I understand that my Liberty is worth fighting for, must be fought for, that nothing is more dear than freedom. I fight for the cause of Liberty every day of my life by engaging people in discussions concerning the government's current and past abuses of power, by distributing materials that inform the public, by, as Samuel Adams said, setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men. I fight by studying history and learning the lessons such activity provides. I believe that unless we are all free, none of us are.

Have things gone horrifically awry in the United States? Hell, yes! Does the government now ignore the Constitution with impunity? Hell, yes! It's gotten so bad that the Great Unwashed has actually started to stir from its perch on the couch of complacency. We are living in the most extraordinary time since the founding of this Republic and it is my belief that in the next few years, we will see it transformed utterly. Whether these changes will be for good or ill remains to be seen. For now, it is enough that my response to "1984" will always be "1776, motherfucker."

I have done my best to explain things in as many different ways and in the simplest terms possible. At this point, the discussion has become onerous and I am moving on. I suspect you will take my lack of attention from here on out as a victory on your part. More power to ya.

And hey, tell the next cop you allow to do a cavity search on you that I said, "Hi."

**Edited for formatting.

Again...you can PRETEND to have liberty all you want...but being jailed for your beliefs is still taking away your liberty.

Their not scared of you...they don't fear you...you are simply to be put out of sight and out of mind, so they don't HAVE to end up being scared or fearful of you. Same reason they could, and might, very well put a bullet in your head....because then your out of sight and out of mind, except for the fact that your a message for anyone else that wants to "express" themselves like you did.

You talk about the goverment abusing power, but thats all you do....talk....I don't see you out in front of any of the federal buildings in Washington with a sign.

Talk is cheap...actions are so much more.

IF you really wanna fight against the "abuse", then spend your next whatsoever years outside the House's with a sign that most people won't give a rats ass about....have fun with that.

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You talk about the goverment abusing power, but thats all you do....talk....I don't see you out in front of any of the federal buildings in Washington with a sign.

Actually he has done this... maybe not in Washington but he has gone to protests.

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