Sometimes I wish

[asphyxian_doll]

I have an issue with this board, that instead of expressing to just Troy, I'd thought I'd express outwardly, and respectively to this board in a whole, since you all should have an opinion as well and I'd like some feedback.

Real, uncensored, feedback.

That's really my problem...

I come around now a days and there is no conflict of interest, no intellectualism...to the extent it used to be.

Everyone is nice, and tends to enable everyone else's whining, selfish, down right immature behavior, not ALL of you, but I have seen an outbreak in foolish/overly friendly and yet oddly insincere conversations.

I see people who want to cheat, who complain about shit that is frankly just selfish crap.

They come on here looking for a permission slip to behave this way, and feel good about it, to feel right...not your opinion...

And I've seen some major permission slips given out left and right about a lot of people who need the TRUTH.

Now besides that, and the enabling, I also DON'T see any conversations that span more than one or two pages unless its something goofy like "post your favorite pics of naked horned owls here"

Um....really?

What had DGN turned into?

Have you all spent so much time trying to censor and enforce death by politeness so much that you've become rigid and limited by picture threads, complaining, and pussyfooting around issues?

Call me pretentious.....maybe I am.

Hope I am....

Edited March 24, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[Onyx]

hrmmmm well.

Speaking as a moderator, we go to great lengths to limit any interference on this board unless there is a clear, outright personal attack.

Speaking as simply a member, I really think you may be overlooking quite a few real, sincere, uncensored opinions and advice here. Please jump in and contribute your own also. I've seen some awesome discussions on this board (particularly during this past year) and actually changed my own views about some things from reading through them.

It would be a boring world if we all agreed, all the time.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Onyx

[Oh_My_Goth]

I all of DGN no matter what yous say or do, but that's just Me.

Say what you will... be what you are.

That's what DGN is.. A place to BE.

Be an ass if you must.. Be cool if you Will to be.

It's a 'no control' thing

I see what you're saying, Doll.. But People will be what they are.. Nothing wrong with that

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Starting at DGN Time Zero (7/27/01) , and counting up every Every 2 to 3 weeks, for the last... nearly a decade now, in one form or another there is either implied or explicit suggestion that DGN isn't what it was in the good old days (or that it just has always sucked). That trend will continue I'm sure. We are talking about from time immemorial in DGN years, beginning before DGN was even called DGN. It can be depressing to try your hardest to create something, only to have it turn into soap box for insults against it. =(

We try very hard and do our best to keep with the intent of DGN and that will also continue, unless perhaps I wake up one morning and decide that the constant barrage of complaints is not worth the unpaid trouble for all concerned and the world would be a better place without DetroitGothic.net.

Its a very difficult juggling act to try and keep things civil on a "public" (quotes as it is obviously privately owned) website and balance that against trying to keep things as open as possible within that context. Particular issues often have a long history behind them with a particular poster here or there that , over months (or even years) is consistently abrasive,over and over, and over and OVER again. Rarely (virtually never) is it "just one week" or "just one post" for which a particular poster might be asked to curb their abrasiveness which is something that is hard to see if your not on the unpaid-job end of things. Is it possible to please everyone? Unfortunately no. Are moderators human and can sometimes make mistakes? Sure. Quite often members only see or in the case of talking to someone privately off-board, only know the rose-colored version of a given situation and not the whole back story.

The just as one example: chest-thumping "I TELL IT LIKE IT IS BITCHES!" type thing is romantic to some, but if points cannot be made without a certain level of civility, they can be made... elsewhere. This type of thing does not seem noble, it just is lack of tact. I can make a point or at least attempt to (even a controversial one) without being a dick.

Given that there are literally, thousands of posts per week, and on a "actively moderated" week, less than 1 in 2,000 posts even raises an eyebrow, you'd be hard pressed to find legitimate overuse of censorship on any kind of empirical basis.

Unfortunately the nature of large communities is that they are ever shifting back and fourth and all around with seas of opinions and attitudes. Harder still is "keeping the peace" in such a community. You'd be in shock how much work is involved. The internet is a breeding ground for asshats and if an occasional check is not made clear that things are expected to remain civil, online communities turn into contests between the abrasive and the more abrasive with not much more than arguments about who is the bigger "faggot" but if moderated to aggressively there ends up being no conversation at all.

Given all that, is there room for improvement? Of course. Might we have spent literally thousands of man hours thinking about such issues and how to resolve them? Of course.

[~Tszura~]

hrmmmm well.

Speaking as a moderator, we go to great lengths to limit any interference on this board unless there is a clear, outright personal attack.

Speaking as simply a member, I really think you may be overlooking quite a few real, sincere, uncensored opinions and advice here. Please jump in and contribute your own also. I've seen some awesome discussions on this board (particularly during this past year) and actually changed my own views about some things from reading through them.

It would be a boring world if we all agreed, all the time.

+1

I, too, think you may be missing things. I feel like I can come here on a daily basis to catch some in-depth, honest, and true discussions about a variety of topics. Sure, things may start out light, but if you follow a discussion, or add your own opinions, something that started out light as a feather can spark heavy discussions about other things.

I don’t know you, so I don’t know what topics interest you. Perhaps you're missing great discussions because you feel the thread just wouldn’t interest you. Threads change sometimes, so what starts out as a discussion about a horned owl could develop into a great conversation about our environment being in peril, and how we can stop it.

And if absolutely nothing interests you, please start thread of your own. I’m sure we would all be interested.

I am very much appreciative of all the work the mods do on here. It’s a tough job, and no one gets paid. I’ve seen other boards claiming to be “censorship free” and they all come and go within seconds. They all just turn out to be a bunch of wangs swearing at each other, and getting offended. I certainly don’t need that, which is just one of the MANY reasons I love DGN.

So, and I'm I'm not trying to be a douche, like everything else people don't like, I guess the choice is you can either "be" the change you want to see by example, or leave. This does, however, involve doing more than complaining about it. It kind of reminds me of all the complaining I hear about City Club from the same people that always go back.

[Raev]

Now besides that, and the enabling, I also DON'T see any conversations that span more than one or two pages unless its something goofy like "post your favorite pics of naked horned owls here"

A couple of threads with differing opinions and multiple pages of discussion from more recent times...personal favs of mine. There are a lot more.

Age Differences

Walmart fires cancer patient for using medical..

Obama's state of the union 2010 address

A lot of people come on here and get silly. It's natural. A lot of us are friends off the boards and it's natural for people to be silly with their friends.

You want differing opinions? Visit the politics/news etc area. Nobody agrees there. Ever. Some exchanges get heated. We leave it alone, until someone starts attacking another person instead of their opinion.

[freydis]

I see people who want to cheat, who complain about shit that is frankly just selfish crap.

They come on here looking for a permission slip to behave this way, and feel good about it, to feel right...not your opinion...

I sense you have a specific point, something you're looking to say, here.

So what exactly are you talking about? Looks to me like you're pussyfooting around some *particular* issue.

People disagree all the time.

You're just not supposed to be outright rude about it.

So what exactly is it thats bugging you?

[DJ Nocker]

I have an issue with this board, that instead of expressing to just Troy, I'd thought I'd express outwardly, and respectively to this board in a whole, since you all should have an opinion as well and I'd like some feedback.

Real, uncensored, feedback.

That's really my problem...

I come around now a days and there is no conflict of interest, no intellectualism...to the extent it used to be.

Everyone is nice, and tends to enable everyone else's whining, selfish, down right immature behavior, not ALL of you, but I have seen an outbreak in foolish/overly friendly and yet oddly insincere conversations.

I see people who want to cheat, who complain about shit that is frankly just selfish crap.

They come on here looking for a permission slip to behave this way, and feel good about it, to feel right...not your opinion...

And I've seen some major permission slips given out left and right about a lot of people who need the TRUTH.

Now besides that, and the enabling, I also DON'T see any conversations that span more than one or two pages unless its something goofy like "post your favorite pics of naked horned owls here"

Um....really?

What had DGN turned into?

Have you all spent so much time trying to censor and enforce death by politeness so much that you've become rigid and limited by picture threads, complaining, and pussyfooting around issues?

Call me pretentious.....maybe I am.

Hope I am....

I like you alot, I often want to call people out for there posts and then get yelled at for it later, bunch of BS. you cant call a crack whore stupid now without getting yelled at by a mod. Alot of people on this site think im a troll simply because when someone says something stupid, i call them out.

[asphyxian_doll]

I sense you have a specific point, something you're looking to say, here.

So what exactly are you talking about? Looks to me like you're pussyfooting around some *particular* issue.

People disagree all the time.

You're just not supposed to be outright rude about it.

So what exactly is it thats bugging you?

Thanks for your input, I see a lot of error in my assessment, and appreciated the clarity and effort I received.

I do have a particular problem, and felt I already explained it.... I saw a trend in many of the threads and used one that frustrated me more so than the others, as an example of what really bothers me....

Enabling.

I see it everywhere, and to be honest, I was really frustrated when I started this thread, and just plain frustrated with people in general who don't own their behavior and look for permission to keep it up.

As for everything else, I agree....things fluctuate...its life.

Guess I was seeing the negative with blinders on and forgot to take the beam out of my own eye so to speak.

Edited March 24, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[DJ Nocker]

Thanks for your input, I see a lot of error in my assessment, and appreciated the clarity and effort I received.

I do have a particular problem, and felt I already explained it.... I saw a trend in many of the threads and used one that frustrated me more so than the others, as an example of what really bothers me....

Enabling.

I see it everywhere, and to be honest, I was really frustrated when I started this thread, and just plain frustrated with people in general who don't own their behavior and look for permission to keep it up.

As for everything else, I agree....things fluctuate...its life.

Guess I was seeing the negative with blinders on and forgot to take the beam out of my own eye so to speak.

Dont compromise..I just posted that I liked you...

[asphyxian_doll]

I like you alot, I often want to call people out for there posts and then get yelled at for it later, bunch of BS. you cant call a crack whore stupid now without getting yelled at by a mod. Alot of people on this site think im a troll simply because when someone says something stupid, i call them out.

Well that's my problem exactly.

I find that the overwhelming status quo seems to generate the rules, not the actual rules themselves....

its life....

life is just like this board, and I tend to forget just how irritating it is.

My only thought is that you should treat others how you yourself want to be treated.

I don't see it enough...

and I can't for the LIFE OF ME tolerate hate, anger, resentment, selfishness, and low emotional quality IN MYSELF.

I find it hard to tolerate it in others....as I do my very best not to say one thing and do another, I found that its sometimes hard to really have an opinion and say what you think without someone jumping down your throat about "how you say it" here on this forum.

I don't think its the site per se' anymore....I think its just which mod decides their day isn't going well for them, and then the playing field fluctuates.

Though we are all on the same level, despite age, race, and gender, I find the very people who say they want equality and fairness, tact and politeness are the quickest ones to spin doctor it and turn the tables.

I can count on my fingers and toes how many times I've been pegged for an underdeveloped immature child, because of my age, and because of my approach to things, as well as my attitude.

Sure...I might need an attitude adjustment at times, but I don't need someone with just as many issues with ethics, with an emotional quality at the same level OR LOWER than me, telling me just "how it is"

Edited March 25, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[asphyxian_doll]

Dont compromise..I just posted that I liked you...

What do you mean "Don't compromise"

They made a valid point, and I still have my gripes on occasion about the censorship on this forum enforcing "how" you should disagree with people who frankly need to be rebuked.

My problem was with how insincere it seemed.

Seemed.

I saw a trend in niceties that gave me the impression that telling someone they are being selfish when they are being selfish is "mean"

Doesn't mean that's how it is.

It doesn't mean I hate this forum or the Mods either, in fact I could be very wrong about my gripe...

I'm open to that idea.

Its all in the attitude.....

A good attitude adjustment makes everything compromisable, you liking me wouldn't change my mind.

If someone really is a crack whore, or rude, selfish, grossly immature etc. and I feel I'd like to put them in their place, I'll say something about it, and would like my freedom of speech not to be knocked.

My issue...again, was the opposite.

Was the enabling and niceties.

Edited March 25, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[DJ Nocker]

Well that's my problem exactly.

I find that the overwhelming status quo seems to generate the rules, not the actual rules themselves....

its life....

life is just like this board, and I tend to forget just how irritating it is.

My only thought is that you should treat others how you yourself want to be treated.

I don't see it enough...

and I can't for the LIFE OF ME tolerate hate, anger, resentment, selfishness, and low emotional quality IN MYSELF.

I find it hard to tolerate it in others....as I do my very best not to say one thing and do another, I found that its hard to really have an opinion and say what you think without someone jumping down your throat about "how you say it" here on this forum.

I don't think its the site per se' anymore....I think its just which mod decides their day isn't going well for them, and then the playing field fluctuates.

Though we are all on the same level, despite age, race, and gender, I find the very people who say they want equality and fairness, tact and politeness are the quickest ones to spin doctor it and turn the tables.

I can count on my fingers and toes how many times I've been pegged for an underdeveloped immature child, because of my age, and because of my approach to things, as well as my attitude.

Sure...I might need an attitude adjustment at times, but I don't need someone with just as many issues with ethics, with an emotional quality at the same level OR LOWER than me, telling me just "how it is"

Dont compromise, continue, please. I feel like im the only one on ths site that doesnt, aside from maybe saint.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Sluagh686

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

Going against better judgement i will throw in my thoughts.

DGN wasn't what I expected from the stories I've heard. But when in Rome... lurk. At least for the first while until you know what the Romans do. Though i usually lurk still, I do throw a post or two out there just to see what sort of feedback it may get, positive or negative, and how much feed back it may get. Sorta my way of testing the waters to see if i'm compatible or not.

I wouldn't blame the mods though for your feelings of no individual thought, i'd put the blame on the posters, it's the posters that create what sorta "life" boards have.

As for DGN never being good... that reminds me alot of a site i used to go to. it was never good, but it's now just terrible. however that's my opinion. Things change, things can't stay the same. I really wouldn't say a site like DGN is good or sucks. It's a flavor, meant for some, but not for others.

If you don't like this flavor, i'm sure people here would know some other sites you may find more suitable around the local area. There's really no logical sense in bullying out the name of different sites that may have the same principal of interest, but with a different flavor. Why hide it from someone who's personality clearly isn't meshing with others? What's the gain of not telling them of a bar you know they would fit in alot better just two blocks down the road? It'll help enforce order in your bar, as well as let that individual go his merry way without badmouthing your bar unnecessarily.

Also, if you have a problem with what sounds like you're saying, people lacking a backbone here, be the initiator, start a thread. If you want a bit of controversy try it, but just browsing over the rules make sure it may not start a flame war. The site i used to go to actually did turn terrible because of such flame wars. Don't get me wrong, they were epic and very entertaining however, the type of attention they brought wasn't. The board had it's own "inside" life, usually sorta crude, but very witty none the less. Everyone was a sarcastic smart ass on that board. But for that reason, it did spark flame wars all the time. And sometimes it would be a joined flame against another site. This gave the board an "outside life" that was quite a different impression than it's "inside life" and before long, people who had the wrong idea about the board, but seen the aftermath of these flame wars and raids came in and utterly ruined what the board used to be. But then, if the posters get out of hand, and start a flame war on your thread, do the responsible thing and try to remind them you don't want things getting this out of hand. If they ignore you, i'm sure the mods would step in and get things under control.

Also i have lurked some threads that i think you might be refering too. Like i said before, don't hate the board, it's not the board, it's the posters. And really, look at real life around you.. people don't act much different than they do on here. Is it wrong? In my opinion yes it is wrong to be asking for a "permission slip" to do something morally wrong or may cause emotional pain to another individual such as cheating. Will i say something about that? No way. One i learned people will listen to what they want to hear, and only trying to lecture them isn't doing you any favors, let them learn the hard way why it's so wrong. There's been plenty of times I've had to learn the hard way.

And if you feel the replies are just as bad as the person asking if it's ok to do such and such, then post your own opinion. ADD THAT DIVERSITY that you feel this board is lacking.

This is just food for thought though, just giving my best piece i can based on what you said. I'm still mainly lurking this board getting a feel for it. I make a few posts, and check back at how many responses if any i get to my posts, and whether they are positive or negative. Just me testing the waters to better learn the do's and don'ts.

Like troy said though, there's no pleasing everybody to a point, everyone will have a different taste of what they like. And nothing will stay the same forever, everything changes, for better or worse is up to the opinion of each individual. Some may say this board has vastly improved, other's may think it's turned into a pile of shit.

If you want more flavor, do so responsibly is all i want to say. Everything has it's price afterall.

[asphyxian_doll]

Dont compromise, continue, please. I feel like im the only one on ths site that doesnt, aside from maybe saint.

I really am not compromising to the point of losing my opinion here.

People can be very co-dependent, enabling, and play favorites here on this board. I've pointed it out before and was attacked for it.

Some people can say exactly what they think, and have it welcomed in a heart beat,....others, well...they say something even close to insulting and they are attacked like they're opinion is going to set the whole place on fire and kill us all.

My only compromise is its like that everywhere...just do yourself a favor and don't tolerate it.

Say something about it.

I did...look here, its civil...and I'm actually seeing it from a different perspective.

You feel like you're not being treated fairly when you have something less than positive/supportive/cup cakey rainbow unicorn related?

Say something....just say it.

If you can't handle the heat, don't stand by the fire...

I just needed a second, third, fourth opinion about my gripe.

I like to be thorough and FAIR. Not nice and let people walk all over me, OR MEAN and rude, and spiteful either.

I agree with Epic_Fail_Guy...

As far as my complaints go, I'll do what I can to change my activity on this board and add more "flavor" in regards to the rules.

Edited March 25, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[DJ Nocker]

wow, that is AMAZING! as soon as I post on this thread, a post I made in a previous thread is now up for review and I may get yelled at again. You may actually end up being alone in your logic now, because if this crap keeps going on, im probably going to leave for another 6 months.

Bull shit I say.

[asphyxian_doll]

wow, that is AMAZING! as soon as I post on this thread, a post I made in a previous thread is now up for review and I may get yelled at again. You may actually end up being alone in your logic now, because if this crap keeps going on, im probably going to leave for another 6 months.

Bull shit I say.

I don't know why...

So I won't comment.

I don't know enough about your activity on here to agree or disagree with you.

I made my point, I'm used to being alone on my views....because I don't GO ALONG to GET ALONG.

Go figure O_o

Edited March 25, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[torn asunder]

people have always been able (and encouraged) to voice their opinions here, no matter what side they come from. what they're *not* allowed to do is act like an asshole. nobody is required to support others' choices blindly, but the nature of this board is such that people want to be supportive, encouraging, uplifting. on the flipside of that, many people also tend to voice their opinions if they think someone is going down the wrong path. as a "friendly, jerk-free" community, that's our goal, as i see it, and i think we've pretty much accomplished that. this is a very supportive, accepting community!

people need to learn how to argue and disagree without becoming disrespectful. there's a big difference between "you've know idea just how wrong i think you are", and "you're an idiot/moron/etc." there's also a way to make your opinion known without being rude ("really? i can't believe you like that, i think it sucks" as opposed to "anyone who likes that is an idiot/stupid/a moron!") one of the things i get tired of is people who don't exactly break the rules, but know damn well they're close, and they're doing it intentionally.

and finally, there is no "free speech" on this board. it's a privately owned board, and as such, it's subject to the rules put down by its founder. everyone who joins this board agrees to abide by the rules. and really, how hard is it to follow the basic rule of "be nice to people"!?

and btw, as a general rule, mods prefer to be more "hands-off" than "hands-on". it's not like we run around the board going "ooh! ooh! what can i mod now!?!?".

[torn asunder]

People can be very co-dependent, enabling, and play favorites here on this board. I've pointed it out before and was attacked for it.

Some people can say exactly what they think, and have it welcomed in a heart beat,....others, well...they say something even close to insulting and they are attacked like they're opinion is going to set the whole place on fire and kill us all.

and to address this, which seems to be referring to supposed favoritism on the board...

people who tend to have a track record of harmonious interaction on the board and no real history of any rules-violating issues are shown a little more tolerance when a post is questionable; a member who has a history of jerk-like behavior will garner much less. someone who has a history of being talked to by the mod staff, or even of having their warning levels raised should know better.

Edited March 25, 2010 by torn asunder

[Raev]

you cant call a crack whore stupid now without getting yelled at by a mod.

A. Blatant Personal Attacks

No name-calling, threats, or other attacks aimed directly toward another poster or non-poster. No direct insults. For example: if a poster calls another poster an "asshole" (or some such) and its not obvious that they were teasing or joking, that's a fairly clear infraction of the DGN rules. Posters guilty of this will be spoken to and dealt with in one way or another.

B. Inciting Anger or Drama

It's fine to discuss things openly and frankly. Healthy debate is great, but don't intentionally cause drama and incite anger in others. This can be a gray area, so, if in doubt, find a tactful way to say it, or don't say it. There are plenty of internet communities where drama and flames are perfectly acceptable, and that is fine. This is not one of them. House DGN is intended to have minimal drama or other immaturity of the sort.

If you LIKE drama, that's fine, just keep yours off DGN and take it elsewhere if you must. Obviously we cant get rid of everything that we don't like, and we have to let some things slide, but generally do your best to keep things constructive, or at least neutral, please.

Actively working to incite drama or work against the DGN staff online and offline both are especially bad, and are in a special class of possible banishment.

Pretty basic and in place from day 1.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Raev

[Raev]

Enabling.

I see it everywhere, and to be honest, I was really frustrated when I started this thread, and just plain frustrated with people in general who don't own their behavior and look for permission to keep it up.

It exists in every aspect of life. It irritates me when I spot it myself. Of course, a LOT of things irritate me in life hah. I'm quite opinionated on...well...everything.

Epic_Fail_Guy - your post AND sig are made out of equal parts "win" and "Yessir" imo.

Sluagh, the DGN moderation staff reviews every thread in which something is objected to by members of the posting community. We examine things and ascertain to the best of our ability if said post violates the rules of DGN. Not every reviewed post receives a reprimand.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Raev

[asphyxian_doll]

people have always been able (and encouraged) to voice their opinions here, no matter what side they come from. what they're *not* allowed to do is act like an asshole. nobody is required to support others' choices blindly, but the nature of this board is such that people want to be supportive, encouraging, uplifting. on the flipside of that, many people also tend to voice their opinions if they think someone is going down the wrong path. as a "friendly, jerk-free" community, that's our goal, as i see it, and i think we've pretty much accomplished that. this is a very supportive, accepting community!

people need to learn how to argue and disagree without becoming disrespectful. there's a big difference between "you've know idea just how wrong i think you are", and "you're an idiot/moron/etc." there's also a way to make your opinion known without being rude ("really? i can't believe you like that, i think it sucks" as opposed to "anyone who likes that is an idiot/stupid/a moron!") one of the things i get tired of is people who don't exactly break the rules, but know damn well they're close, and they're doing it intentionally.

and finally, there is no "free speech" on this board. it's a privately owned board, and as such, it's subject to the rules put down by its founder. everyone who joins this board agrees to abide by the rules. and really, how hard is it to follow the basic rule of "be nice to people"!?

and btw, as a general rule, mods prefer to be more "hands-off" than "hands-on". it's not like we run around the board going "ooh! ooh! what can i mod now!?!?".

I'm a firm believer in "firm but friendly"

And being friendly does not necessitate rewording something as blatant as "you're being an asshole, stop behaving that way"

I guess I just don't take shit, and I don't GIVE shit either.

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say....and I call things as I see them.

Being nice doesn't always play a part in a scenario of truth.

I'm sure I haven't recently "skimmed" the rules.

I just had a small gripe, but its been resolved.

With me at least.

THANK YOU for your time and respect.

I really do forget why I come here sometimes....

Edited March 25, 2010 by asphyxian_doll

[phee]

Appriciate the feedback.... I see a lot of good points being made.

I think TA said pretty well what I would have added. State your opinion, and don't be a jerk.

[phee]

Some of what was said in this thread reminded me of this... http://www.theonion.com/articles/america-a-fascist-police-state-stoned-underage-dru,3463/

Those of you who get where I am coming from will probably agree, those of you who don't might think about our fascist police state.

[Rev.Reverence]

Enabling, is disgusting...I understand, trying to help a buddy, because they are down...if they are down continually; & do not TAKE the hand that is offered to assist...fuck them...I can not stand around in the mud waiting to help someone up...