Healthcare Bill Passes. (elephant in the room)

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

Did you read any of those links? Did you notice it was the #2 Republican in the Senate that was having his life threated and the person who was making the threats was arrested?

I'm sorry if my sarcasm has offended you. Perhaps you should check your facts before you tell me I am full of shit.

no i haven't read your links. Your sarcasm hasn't offended me, but it did give me the impression that I'm only wasting my breath trying to compare facts and notes with you to come up with the best idea. You just don't seem to have that in mind, rather you have your opinion you feel is fact, and will talk down on anyone with a different opinion.

I think I'll trust my sources over yours if you don't mind, my life and career literally depend on my source of intel ya dig?

That is all, from here on out I have nothing further to say to you, lets just mind our own on the forum to keep the peace.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

no i haven't read your links. Your sarcasm hasn't offended me, but it did give me the impression that I'm only wasting my breath trying to compare facts and notes with you to come up with the best idea. You just don't seem to have that in mind, rather you have your opinion you feel is fact, and will talk down on anyone with a different opinion.

I think I'll trust my sources over yours if you don't mind, my life and career literally depend on my source of intel ya dig?

That is all, from here on out I have nothing further to say to you, lets just mind our own on the forum to keep the peace.

Police reports and official records are not "opinions". but you are right we dont need to talk. I like to deal in the real world.

[Rev.Reverence]

The problem there is, if under the umbrella of insurance they try to cover people based on their spiritual tenants that go against modern medicine... That opens a door for anyone and everyone to declare their beliefs as a reason to be insured.

If according to my spiritual tenants I believe that I need bj's and chocolate shakes to be healthy... would you really expect the government to cover that even though it goes against modern medicine? (As awesome as that would be)

Here it is again phee...you ridicule peoples spiritual beings by doing this all the fucking time {just because you have none}(it's rude as shit..& unbecoming a moderator)...there is no one saying they need bjs & chocolate shakes paid for by the government...

GROW UP WOULD YOU!

I refer to Amish & the like...who, now, have to pay $, into a system that they WILL NOT USE...

Edited April 2, 2010 by Rev.Reverence

[Rev.Reverence]

I think every citizen's right to refuse medical treatment for personal/religious/political reasons will still apply. Yes, you might have to either buy the insurance or pay a fine if you have been determined to belong to the income bracket that can afford insurance, but no one is MAKING you take antibiotics or wear dentures. You can still forswear treatment.

Exactly...so, those that won't use something...like the Amish, & Scientology...still have to pay for themselves (or be fined)...how is this sounding fair?

..oh, & there are more..hold on...Amenities..some Yogun...some Wiccan...some Rastas...bunch of Hasidics...the list really does build up...even is it is ten individuals at a time...now, you have abig old stack of peoples that are being wronged.....

Edited April 2, 2010 by Rev.Reverence

[phee]

Here it is again phee...you ridicule peoples spiritual beings by doing this all the fucking time {just because you have none}(it's rude as shit..& unbecoming a moderator)...there is no one saying they need bjs & chocolate shakes paid for by the government...

GROW UP WOULD YOU!

I refer to Amish & the like...who, now, have to pay $, into a system that they WILL NOT USE...

How have I ridiculed anyone in my post (I didn't) If no one is saying that they need bjs & chocolate shakes paid for by the government... then how am I insulting you if you didn't say it (I never said anyone said it... thats why my statement had "If" before it not "because" The point being that I was using a ridiculous example that no one would claim so that I would not insult anyone... the only people who should get insulted by my metaphor are people that actually believe that they need bjs & chocolate shakes paid for by the government (and unless I am very mistaken about you... you don't believe that correct?

The point I was making was that the government should not cater to individuals spirituality and belief systems (or lack there of)... that would be like saying only if you are Xtian will the government help insure you... this would be very wrong imo.

..but, what for all those that have Spiritual tenants that go against modern medicine?

That is not the governments problem anymore then someone having spiritual tenants that go against modern road building... you would still have to pay taxes for the roads even if you don't use them... why? because even if you don't use the roads, the garbage truck does, and they deserve to have safe roads, so do the police, so does your rabbi/priest/guru/cult leader... The buses that take your kids to school etc... So you don't want to pay for health care that is against you spiritual tenants? That is fine, but along with anything else that state/local/national governments provides for you should not be coming your way either.

You are referring to having to pay taxes for other peoples health care yes? You don't want to do this correct? You don't want to have to pay for peoples health care if you disagree with how they choose to go about using their healthcare... correct me if I am wrong.

You do not want to pay taxes for things you disagree with... Then there are options, one is to vote people in to office who will do what you wish... the other is to leave. I personally did not enjoy paying Bush's salary for 8 years, but I did because I live in this country, and I have to follow the laws, work to change the laws, or get out.

And Btw... I really don't mind having my modding called into question... but I think there are more constructive ways to do it on DGN. Please feel free to PM me or if you want to pm another mod, feel free.

[freydis]

So it is now a right to have to buy something or pay a fine if you don't even want it? Not trying to start shit because obviously if you are in the bracket where you can afford insurance you will most likely get it...but knowing real life everything won't go as planned...THEY may say you can afford it but maybe you really can't or you don't WANT what it provides.

I go to rent movies that I want to watch and that I will watch...I don't get told I have to rent so many videos each month that I probably won't watch. If you aren't going to use something why pay for it? For all the minority groups out there that are striving to preserve and maintain their ability to act or think a certain way...this seems like a step backwards to me...not specifically for those groups but for the whole idea of living your life...

Looking at the way it's written..... it's technically a tax. You either buy insurance, or are taxed for not having it. So essentially, those who choose not to have it are funding the subsidy for those who financially have a problem getting it and want it....

....still kinda crummy.

Edited April 2, 2010 by freydis

[candyman]

Looking at the way it's written..... it's technically a tax. You either buy insurance, or are taxed for not having it. So essentially, those who choose not to have it are funding the subsidy for those who financially have a problem getting it and want it....

....still kinda crummy.

Well yeah it is a tax but they way its used it is pretty much a fine. Look I would love to help others afford what they need or even want but I don't have the means to do that. I know plenty of other middle class people that probably could afford insurance but they need the money for other things. There is a growing trend, and this is just speculation on my part, where the government at all levels is not only taxing you out the ass but they are controlling where the rest of your income goes whether you need that something or not.

Maybe if we stopped dumping the pledged millions into the UN so they can toss is at a poor country and hope it helps we would not need to do this? Maybe...

I am under the firm belief that everyone should be required to get proper maintenance on their vehicles because of all the problems, including bad emissions, that it would solve. However, I realize that even if I was in a position to make that happen it would be stupid because some people may not what that. Therefore the "program" would need to be changed so that if you want it you can get it, if you can't afford it we can help, and if you want nothing to do with it then fine but you will live with shame and not a bill.

All that being said I will be in the Army soon so this healthcare argument technically doesn't involve me...doesn't mean it can't bother me though.

[torn asunder]

Exactly...so, those that won't use something...like the Amish, & Scientology...still have to pay for themselves (or be fined)...how is this sounding fair?

..oh, & there are more..hold on...Amenities..some Yogun...some Wiccan...some Rastas...bunch of Hasidics...the list really does build up...even is it is ten individuals at a time...now, you have abig old stack of peoples that are being wronged.....

they all pay social security taxes, and income taxes, how is that any different?

and really, rev, try to stop taking things so personally. phee wasn't ridiculing anyone, he was trying to make a point with an obvious absurdity. you seem to have this tendency towards having a persecution complex when it comes to anything remotely spiritual, when that's not what's going down at all.

[the eternal]

they all pay social security taxes, and income taxes, how is that any different?

and really, rev, try to stop taking things so personally. phee wasn't ridiculing anyone, he was trying to make a point with an obvious absurdity. you seem to have this tendency towards having a persecution complex when it comes to anything remotely spiritual, when that's not what's going down at all.

+1000

[Rev.Reverence]

He ridicules those who have spirituality, not outright, but through absurdities..

..I said nothing about the Gov. paying for odd shit...he took it there.

...I said that some will want to opt out of the care (for spiritual reasons)...for them to pay, is unfair...they will not benefit, whatsoever...if one were to read my post...one would see, I DON"T CARE...nor, does this really effect ME directly...I have shitty medicade, & since I do...I don't get this insurance, if I wanted it or not.

..I also was not speaking on my behalf...but, I was questioned like I was against all these things...seen?

So you don't want to pay for health care that is against you spiritual tenants? That is fine, but along with anything else that state/local/national governments provides for you should not be coming your way either.

You are referring to having to pay taxes for other peoples health care yes? You don't want to do this correct? You don't want to have to pay for peoples health care if you disagree with how they choose to go about using their healthcare... correct me if I am wrong.

You do not want to pay taxes for things you disagree with... Then there are options, one is to vote people in to office who will do what you wish... the other is to leave. I personally did not enjoy paying Bush's salary for 8 years, but I did because I live in this country, and I have to follow the laws, work to change the laws, or get out.

I did not say shit to bring all this out...at all...tell me how any of this, applies directly to the statement I made?

[Rev.Reverence]

they all pay social security taxes, and income taxes, how is that any different?

SS...Income Tax....NOT INSURANCE.

Not the same thing.

AT ALL.

not even the same thing as each other.

Insurance is a product...ask those that sell it...the gov'ment, ain't allowed to force us into buying stuff.

[phee]

I did not say shit to bring all this out...at all...tell me how any of this, applies directly to the statement I made?

..but, what for all those that have Spiritual tenants that go against modern medicine?

"Fuck YOU..."

That's what Big-O said to them...

This was what what made me get on this topic... if I misunderstood I am sorry.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

they all pay social security taxes, and income taxes, how is that any different?

and really, rev, try to stop taking things so personally. phee wasn't ridiculing anyone, he was trying to make a point with an obvious absurdity. you seem to have this tendency towards having a persecution complex when it comes to anything remotely spiritual, when that's not what's going down at all.

I would like to point out that anyone that does not want to pay for any "socialist", or socialist parts of our society, can freely give up their American Citizen status, and simply be a Citizen instead.

It's up to you to weigh out the pros and cons of that move tho as i haven't fully researched the matter.

[phee]

He ridicules those who have spirituality, not outright, but through absurdities..

While I am not going to say that I have never EVER done this... I am most definitely not doing it here, nor do I do it to the degree that you seem to think I do.

I use absurdities specifically TO NOT ridicule people out of respect. You have it backwards...

If I were to site examples of what people actually do for their spiritual tenants... like taking communion or say sweat lodges... then you would be right, I would be disrespecting people who do this, and ridiculing them... BUT I DON'T.

[candyman]

they all pay social security taxes, and income taxes, how is that any different?

SS is beyond help at this point so that kinda makes sense...but the income tax is something that everyone should pay. That goes for many other taxes because I HOPE that the money is going to the right places which in some cases it is. There has never been the option to NOT pay your taxes.

The fact that there is no option, that you MUST pay something, and that the money paid in will go to help everyone really gives more ammo to the people that are yelling about socialism...there are more socialist countries out there that offer option out of paying if you don't want to.

[torn asunder]

SS is beyond help at this point so that kinda makes sense...but the income tax is something that everyone should pay. That goes for many other taxes because I HOPE that the money is going to the right places which in some cases it is. There has never been the option to NOT pay your taxes.

The fact that there is no option, that you MUST pay something, and that the money paid in will go to help everyone really gives more ammo to the people that are yelling about socialism...there are more socialist countries out there that offer option out of paying if you don't want to.

we haven't had income tax forever, you know. it was instituted to help support the civil war effort. in comparison, this "tax" we're discussing on health care is designed (i think) to support americans' physical well-being. i'm perfectly happy to pay into social security, as i believe in supporting and taking care of the previous generations who made my life here possible. we promised it to them, we should keep our promise. i also agree with this idea. i don't know socialism, fascism, communism, etc - i haven't studied them, and i don't particularly care to. i believe that we need to take care of each other, as a society. even if one might not personally believe in /participate in modern medicine, i think one has a responsibility to their peers, their fellow citizens, to help them remain healthy, to help them live a fulfilling life.

we all pay taxes for roads, for infrastructure support, etc, even if we don't utilize all of what they cover. i don't see people freaking out about that. this seems to be something meant to help the community at large, but it seems people would rather have everyone fend for themselves.

hell, i don't even know where i'm going with this anymore!

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

um, Income tax was not permanent until 1913 when we gave up the gold standard. It was actually found un-Constitutional in 1895.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

ughhhhhh! Internet gremlins ate my response to virtually every main subject above. GAH!

The problem there is, if under the umbrella of insurance they try to cover people based on their spiritual tenants that go against modern medicine... That opens a door for anyone and everyone to declare their beliefs as a reason to be insured.If according to my spiritual tenants I believe that I need bj's and chocolate shakes to be healthy... would you really expect the government to cover that even though it goes against modern medicine? (As awesome as that would be)

Saved me the trouble of having to formulate such a concise statement.

I think every citizen's right to refuse medical treatment for personal/religious/political reasons will still apply. Yes, you might have to either buy the insurance or pay a fine if you have been determined to belong to the income bracket that can afford insurance, but no one is MAKING you take antibiotics or wear dentures. You can still forswear treatment.

He ridicules those who have spirituality, not outright, but through absurdities....I said nothing about the Gov. paying for odd shit...he took it there....I said that some will want to opt out of the care (for spiritual reasons)...for them to pay, is unfair...they will not benefit, whatsoever...if one were to read my post...one would see, I DON"T CARE...nor, does this really effect ME directly...I have shitty medicade, & since I do...I don't get this insurance, if I wanted it or not...I also was not speaking on my behalf...but, I was questioned like I was against all these things...seen?I did not say shit to bring all this out...at all...tell me how any of this, applies directly to the statement I made?

Seemed directly relevant to me when i read it. He was just giving examples of how it (might) actually play out in reality. Not that he was necessarily RIGHT , but it does seem to be talking about the same thing(s).

But about the SSI comment, I'm on SSD, the coverage is actually VERY good considering the price. Maybe you didn't sign up for any medigap coverage (or maybe picked the wrong one for your situation , which is the trick)? Its very cheap and adds a lot to the coverage, its sort of the "quasi-public option" already built into SSI. I'm probably up to like 200 grand over the last few years and haven't had to pay a dime out of pocket other than a small portion of some prescriptions (which we COULD get paid for, it just takes some extra work to qualify.) Other than that, I've not had any co-pays, nothing. And we are covering a broad range of services, not just emergencies.

I've got zero complaints about the current coverage I have. True there are some REALLY expensive treatments that you have to get special approval for, but thats fine, there does need to be at least some nod to capitalism in the system somewhere or the costs would balloon even further out of control than they already are.

[IsleofRhodesEnt]

No, he didn't use those exact words but the meaning was the same and he is still just as wrong as he was before I used sarcasm.

but you HATE it and cry outrage when someone does that to you.....Are you the Pot or the Kettle on this one?

Honestly, NONE of us, unless we are reading the bill itself, can judge from an outside source on what the future of Healthcare will be, and thats a fact. I just picked up insurance under a new job (WOOT), and the company isn't sure how they will change the policy to incorperate the new Health care bill. There are LOTS of companies like that...their going to weight options and see what works best. Whats great about the plan is that you will be covered, regardless of employment or existing problems. If you choose to NOT enroll in an employers health care, you still ahve some kind of viable coverage.

I don't trust news sources on this bill, because both sides have something at stake, and it's more of a mud-flinging contest then trying to get something done.

yeah...it's "forced" on you....because lets be honest...people are stupid. If you didn't teach a dog to not shit in the house, you would be stepping in dogshit all the time. It's "forced" so we don't shit in the house, like taxes. If we don't pay taxes on a widescale basis, the calamity would be resounding, and the people that try to push this "reform" are worse then the terrorists that are trying to destroy us from the outside, because they are ignorant of what the actual result will be, but have this ideal that their actions will "teach the goverment". No, what it WILL do is turn us into a third world country, where we won't even have the ability to help ourselves, or even the ability to plan to help ourselves. You think you want reform, but what your working for is the CRIPPLING of our society far beyond what you THINK it is now.

A person is smart, but people are like lemmings. People will cry out if they are offended by one thing, without looking at the whole picture (Tea Party supporters fall in this category, like it or not).

Edited April 4, 2010 by IsleofRhodesEnt

[Troy Spiral (13)]

SS...Income Tax....NOT INSURANCE.

Not the same thing.

AT ALL.

not even the same thing as each other.

Insurance is a product...ask those that sell it...the gov'ment, ain't allowed to force us into buying stuff.

All government has a long history of forcing us to pay for stuff. Even though there are legitimate constitutional issues involved in the US. Especially local government can practically just pull the money right out of your pocket. Not that I LIKE this fact, its just a fact.

SS is insurance of a kind, it just isn't called such and SSI is obviously insurance. It works very much the same way , even though it is even MORE socialized than any insurance plan. Its almost best viewed as "UltraInsruance". When they tried to pass it was as such and is understood to be as such in the 30s-40s.

There wasn't a huge resistance to Social Security (it was widely supported) but there was a huge resistance to Medicare in the 60s with the same refrain. Both passed, both take money out of many peoples pockets without their "consent" even though really, we always could get out of it via various rube-goldberg's.

just as a random point (there are many similar things all through our political history)

Regan On Medicare in 1961:

“We do not want socialized medicine…behind it will come other government programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until one day as Norman Thomas said we will wake to find that we have socialism…We are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FzNTB1qtFA

Now the Apocalypse didn't come as predicted. But, its clear that socialism is part of american government and has been for a long time. In the long run the "cant make us pay" (if we push hard to get a law overturned) but government can, almost by definition make us pay for things if we want them or not.

This is a bit of a sideshow to the public health care idea, but it is a misconception that government doesn't have the power to do such things.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Dang i am seriously failing at the internet. (I blame lag!)

SS...Income Tax....NOT INSURANCE.

Not the same thing.

AT ALL.

not even the same thing as each other.

Insurance is a product...ask those that sell it...the gov'ment, ain't allowed to force us into buying stuff.

All government has a long history of forcing us to pay for stuff. even though there are legitimate constitutional issues that are debated. Especially local government can practically just pull the money right out of your pocket. Not that I LLKE this fact, its just a fact.

SS is insurance of a kind, it just isn't called such and SSI is obviously insurance. It works very much the same way , even though it is even MORE socialized than any insurance plan. Its almost best viewed as "UltraInsruance". When they tried to pass it was as such and is understood to be as such in the 30s-40s.

There wasn't a huge resistance to Social Security (it was widely supported) but there was a huge resistance to Medicare in the 60s with the same refrain. Both passed, both take money out of many peoples pockets without their "consent" even though really, we always could get out of it via various rube-goldberg's.

just as a random point (there are many similar things all through our political history)

Regan On Medicare in 1961:

“We do not want socialized medicine…behind it will come other government programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until one day as Norman Thomas said we will wake to find that we have socialism…We are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FzNTB1qtFA

Now the Apocalypse didn't come as predicted. But, its clear that socialism is part of american government and has been for a long time.

Depending on perspective we could say 'they cant make us do it if we vote against it ... or if there was no vote we write the congressman and get it overturned'. Some things make take generations. But in the shorter term, the government, by definition, can make us pay for things we may or may not want. To think otherwise is to just lack of understanding.

[Slogo]

back to bj's...

[Rev.Reverence]

While I am not going to say that I have never EVER done this... I am most definitely not doing it here, nor do I do it to the degree that you seem to think I do.

I use absurdities specifically TO NOT ridicule people out of respect. You have it backwards...

If I were to site examples of what people actually do for their spiritual tenants... like taking communion or say sweat lodges... then you would be right, I would be disrespecting people who do this, and ridiculing them... BUT I DON'T.

[phee]

?

[n0Mad]

!