Biased Media Strikes Again

[LoTek]

i was going to break it down point by point and counter-argue, but i don't really care that much.

instead, i will just reiterate my main point, the military represents the will of the american people. i am an american person. therefore, it IS my business. i will voice my opinion as i see fit.

however, i do agree with you that DADT is a small concern when you are having issues with your gear, and proper armor. that is about the only thing we can agree on. leave it to the american people to be so easily lead astray by fashionable news/entertainment.

the soldiers you describe are only confirming my opinion that Idiocracy is a documentary.

but honestly, if most soldiers act and think they way that you portray them, maybe it's darwinism that there isn't enough armor to go around. a happy accident? my suggestion to you, as you seem at least mostly intelligent, or at least minimally able to think for yourself, is to take some armor with you next time you go over seas...as im finding it hard to give a fuck about the safety of the soldiers you are describing.

good luck soldier, write me from the next third world country you invade.

[candyman]

Desert Beauty...hahah...

Yeah the big point here is that while I am kinda against getting rid of the DADT policy I could really care less IF...and this is a big IF here...IF the more important problems were taken care of first.

Hey...do you guys know what our current battle uniforms blend in with? Ugly furniture and large groups of people in the same uniforms...not good.

No we can't take our own armor...we can't take anything personal into combat.

That leads to another point. The word PERSONAL! Yes when you have a personal issue it should be taken care of. However, since this issue is PERSONAL you keep it to yourself and ONLY tell it to a trusted member of your chain of command. Hell, I have even heard stories of gays pretty much calling themselves out to the chain because of personal issues.

What does that mean? If it is personal...don't tell! The one exception being if you have a major problem and in that case it will most likely be handled properly and discretely unless you really fucked up. So, straight or gay you should probably shut up to begin with.

The apathy thing was another point. People act like they care and want to bring us home...but we can't get Kevlar that covers a decent portion of the body and keeps us stuck in vehicle doors that we REALLY need to get out of because they are on fire. Our ammo is stacked on our chests and is a pain to get at when new vests with easy access and even distribution are available but...well we just can't have them for some reason.

And to end my rant you should really think twice before poking a soldier like this. I really don't care that much but others will and I can't really blame them. I am not saying that I am awesome because of this, I am just a generator mechanic, but soldiers are a different breed. We go through shit that others don't even if we don't deploy. Damn right we flip over stupid shit and freak out over little things because we see it every day. Our entire lives our SOP and if one little thing is out of place we kinda short out and don't always react the right way. Seriously, spend an entire summer away from EVERYTHING at Basic some time...AIT is a whole new ballgame after that. It changes how you look at things and how you deal with them.

So...before you go and tell off a soldier for their opinions on something or their reactions to something just think about what they might have gone through. Not the heroic bullshit but yes our minds are altered when we come in...if your mind isn't altered you tend to leave after your contract is up.

[LoTek]

candyman - well said. i understand your point, and while i don't agree with it, i can respect where you are coming from.

since when are soldiers not allowed to bring personal gear? a good friend of mine was detroit SWAT, and was allowed to have his own vest shipped over. although now that i think of it, that was at the beginning of the invasion, so a lot may have changed. i've heard plenty of stories of hillbilly armor.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Gaf - It's our right in the 1st amendment of the constitution we swore to defend to tell people that are ignorant* of the army to butt the hell out. Freedom of speech right?

Yes, you have Freedom of Speech... as long as it doesn't interfear with your job.

and just so you know... I served 8 years. I served them before your "inadequit" kevlar and ceramic body armor. A chest hit would have killed me or anyone else I served with. So when I see you bitching about it.. all I can think is "less qq and more pew pew".

[candyman]

candyman - well said. i understand your point, and while i don't agree with it, i can respect where you are coming from.

since when are soldiers not allowed to bring personal gear? a good friend of mine was detroit SWAT, and was allowed to have his own vest shipped over. although now that i think of it, that was at the beginning of the invasion, so a lot may have changed. i've heard plenty of stories of hillbilly armor.

Some people do get away with it but for the most part no personal items in combat. Most of the people that get it are SF or hold a special position. A few small items of personal ownership are sometimes allowed but otherwise you wear what they give you.

[candyman]

Yes, you have Freedom of Speech... as long as it doesn't interfear with your job.

and just so you know... I served 8 years. I served them before your "inadequit" kevlar and ceramic body armor. A chest hit would have killed me or anyone else I served with. So when I see you bitching about it.. all I can think is "less qq and more pew pew".

It is not so much how the armor protects you...it is how you wear it and how it affects your performance. First it is added weight and if it doesn't work well it is pointless weight. Second, it affects load bearing ability. Third, it affects the placement, and access, of your gear that you may really need to get at. Fourth, it affects mobility especially in close quarters areas and if you get stuck there is no quick release.

The improved plate carriers would help that if they would get approved. If you are going to make us use something it should be useful and should have a minimal affect of performance and readiness. Why do you think people take the plates out when they patrol? Hell, with the current speed of almost any military vehicle it would actually be nice to shed some layers of armor in exchange for some of the other perks...especially since the EFP's that they are using can pierce ALL of the armor that we currently have.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I think you missed my point completly.

[machine]

instead, i will just reiterate my main point, the military represents the will of the american people. i am an american person. therefore, it IS my business. i will voice my opinion as i see fit.

And that should be the extent of your view. Again, this can't be that hard to comprehend. If you are not actively serving your country, your opinion matters NOT, as it is not one of the many that ARE serving the country.

DADT should be reviewed by the Pentagon as it is, and let the results of the study then do the talking. As Gen Amos has said, and talking with any active member of the military (heres one), the response to the repeal has been overwhelmingly negative.

Just because a tax payer is my "boss" does not mean they have any say in what I do. The President is my boss, and lucky for me, the UCMJ super-cedes the president in many aspects, DADT being one of them. So, if this is going to change, congress has to do it, not the prez.

And I think it was candyman that was complaining about lack of equip/poor quality for the Army.. Maybe you have not noticed, the Army is the MOST funded of all the branches, and their ground units get new shit on a REGULAR basis, yet the Army has sustained more causalities in IRQ and AFG than the Marines, who for a LARGE period of time had more combat troops on the ground, in the cities, doing to job 'some other guys' couldn't do. (Fallujah anyone?)

You don't hear (the most underfunded branch) Marines bitching about the lack of armor, do you? Nope. Why?

Well, maybe if the Army started TRAINING their soldiers like the Marines train their Marines, the Army just might 'get it'. It's about making do, and doing the job, no matter what.

And by the way, the saying is "Every soldier Marine A Rifleman"...

BUT, at least we can agree that over-turning DADT would destroy the military. And that is what civilians won't understand until they cowboy up, sign up, and go and fight.

A change of DADT start at boot camp. We already separate men/women for the obvious and not so obvious reasons, now we need to seperate gay/straight for the same reasons. This will cost more than it is worth.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

My final thought, for people like lotek, they are simply ignorant of how the military is run, it's whole lifestyle so to say. It's NOT the same thing as a normal american citizen, it is a completely different way of life. It is not a democracy, it is more of a dictatorship (and i do not say that negatively, but rather the best analogy i can think of off the top of my head to accurately describe it.

One thing I want to bring up, is if LoTek, you agree so much that there's bigger issues to worry about than the DADT, and that you think you're opinion should matter soooo much to me... then well.. how can i put this wihtout sounding rude...

where is your intelligence in this? If you agree there's more serious issues, then why are you worried about this one? It's really showing your ignorance of how the military functions, and your opinion is based on feeling rather than logic. This is why I have been politely, but bluntly trying to tell you you're acting retarded. Have an issue with DADT? You say it's for the people (specifically of homosexual nature but that's besides the point) in the military? Then how about tackling some of our REAL problems instead of jumping on the Gaga band wagon hm?

Or you can continue fighting the DADT policy, and when you're done with that you can go protest macdonalds and petition against fast foods carrying toys in their happy meals because it makes kids fat.

Or on the flip side, As a service member who's defending your freedom, i think I have a right, like you, to jump in your house and tell you how to raise your family, how to do your job, and not have anything to do with that.

Oh and while you're getting rid of the DADT policy.. can you also get rid of the double standards placed on us by the Feminazi's that let females join our armed services, females that can't run as fast as men, lack the stregnth us men have, and are usually not just physically inferior to us, but mentally and emotionally inferior to us as well? (oh is this sounding SEXIST???) Ok, if someone wants to toot their horn on this do me a favor first.. google "Army APFT" And look at the physical requrement difference between men and women.. especially in the push ups.. then come at me with me being fucking sexist. Oh and also, while you're Pwning me.. please explain to me why we should let someone like this join when they lack the strength I have, and is needed, to drag a wounded soldier to safety... to do the labor required to get critical jobs done... it's total fuckin bullshit. But this is an entirely different can of worms than the DADT...

I'm just asking you, as a favor, since you seem to think you have a right to dictate how the military is run.. lets fix up all the major clusterfucks civilians like you caused by thinking they have a right to tell us how to run our shit.

End thought is, you are screaming your opinion about an organization you know very little about and it really does show.

Machine.. army may be the most funded.. but they're also the worst equipped because unlike the marines (who got their new digital uniforms right the FIRST time) the army mindlessly spends money on absolute garbage from the cheapest bidder. I could get into the whole detail of politics with contracts and shit but that's just too huge a mess to cover.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

oh and gaf.. i'm not new to the army man, i was in, and deployed, well before all this new armor of aids and fail was forced on us.

EDIT to say.. I know where you're getting at and i will agree with you... the military as it stands now is a complete disaster compared to the military 10 years ago or greater.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Epic_Fail_Guy

[machine]

Machine.. army may be the most funded.. but they're also the worst equipped because unlike the marines (who got their new digital uniforms right the FIRST time) the army mindlessly spends money on absolute garbage from the cheapest bidder. I could get into the whole detail of politics with contracts and shit but that's just too huge a mess to cover.

fixed.

[n0Mad]

Instead of DADT, I think it should just be DMDC - Doesn't Matter, Don't Care.

[LoTek]

to be honest, i'm bored to shit with this conversation. it's like arguing with a brick wall. but the brick wall is self righteous and on steroids.

wasn't this about Biased Media? isn't there another thread on DADT?

where's that mcdonalds to picket....

[PlasticPassion_a2]

Oh and while you're getting rid of the DADT policy.. can you also get rid of the double standards placed on us by the Feminazi's that let females join our armed services, females that can't run as fast as men, lack the stregnth us men have, and are usually not just physically inferior to us, but mentally and emotionally inferior to us as well? (oh is this sounding SEXIST???) Ok, if someone wants to toot their horn on this do me a favor first.. google "Army APFT" And look at the physical requrement difference between men and women.. especially in the push ups.. then come at me with me being fucking sexist. Oh and also, while you're Pwning me.. please explain to me why we should let someone like this join when they lack the strength I have, and is needed, to drag a wounded soldier to safety... to do the labor required to get critical jobs done... it's total fuckin bullshit. But this is an entirely different can of worms than the DADT...

Yes, I'm afraid you do sound like a sexist. I saw quite a few bonehead male shit-talkers with 300 APFT scores cry like fucking sissies under fire and duress. And I saw plenty of females (some who could barely pass an APFT) calmly and professionally patch holes in guys while rockets were impacting all around them or take charge of a squad in the middle of a mission while their male counterparts were freaking the fuck out. Some of my unit's best gunners were chicks. Physical strength is pretty damn important when you're taking fire, but mental/emotional strength is a lot more.

To you and Candyman: I don't know you guys. I don't mean to hassle or try to "pwn" you and I can appreciate the situation you're in now, but it sounds like you need to work on your mental strength, soldiers. The arguments you keep trying to make are pretty shabby and it sounds like you're very, very angry at a lot of things. I understand the feeling. We all came home with a lot of anger, too. Don't let it envelope you and don't let the Army dominate your identity of self. You were a civilian before you joined the army and eventually you'll become a civilian again when you leave. Really, all this differentiating between civilians and non-civilians is bullshit. One wears a uniform and the other doesn't. One has to deploy and the other doesn't. In today's modern/urban battlefield, and with over 60% of our deployed troops coming from the Guard and Reserves, those are about the only differences these days. It's still humans vs. humans.

Take care and control.

- Josh

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

fixed.

And it's advanced faggotry such as that wich has finalized my decision to just GTFO...

And +1 for spook (until enough time passes by where I can actually do the +1 thing)

That's what it boils down to in principal, the DADT is just a mind your own god damned business because this isn't Jr. Fucking High anymore. I don't know what's so hard to figure out and why people have such an issue with this.

And LoTek I will say this, I do enjoy most of your posts, I don't agree with all of them but if you really feel like you're faced with a brick wall, guy you really need to do alot of research on the subject matter. It might not be the politically correct way to do things, but it is a policy that works and keeps order within the ranks. We're fighting alot of wild idealists with twisted (or maybe not so twisted) logic behind their motives, either way doesn't matter, the fact of the matter is they're trying to kill us while we're out there.. We don't need a bunch of young punk ass 18-23 year olds who aren't fully matured yet getting distracted because they're not old enough to realize that it doesn't fucking matter what his battle buddy sticks his dick in. You really are criticizing a working animal you do not understand. Other than that, I got nothin personal against you. But next time, instead of claiming to be bored, back up your argument with thought and logic rather than emotion... and that can go for anyone and everyone.. we usually fuck up when we let our emotions lead our judgement instead of our logic and intellect. That is all

Also machine, yes origionally every MARINE is a rifleman... well guess who finally decided to adopt... somewhat.. in some units i've seen.. that principal too? Yep.. I hear it in the army now... but really, i wouldn't look too seriously into it.. with that iphone money wasting.. yeah the army is headed in all sorts of different directions all at once and is just... jesus fuck they spoil these fuckin crybaby newfags now adays... can't get any good soldiers anymore because too many momma's boys are crying over someone yelling at them... our generation and this new generation both = fail as far as i'm concerned.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Epic_Fail_Guy

[LoTek]

fair enough.

a little off topic but,

i do find humor in soldiers that claim to be 'defending our freedom', while the goverment that employs them are the only ones trying to take my freedoms away. maybe you're looking at the wrong enemy?

just a thought.

[candyman]

Hey we just dealt with one of the new Army policies today...we had to get under protection of in our rain gear because it was sprinkling outside. Yeah...pretty much just a mist. The new policies are not working out too well so I don't know why this new change would be any different. In the meantime during our field time our camo still don't blend with shit, our ammo is still trapped in the pouches unless you stand up, and our vehicles can only go 6 mph and get stuck in stuff that even my Honda could power through.

It is the principal of the matter...take care of the primary functions for our organization and worry about other shit later. Apparently our priorities do not lie in the same areas as the people that are making the decisions.

Another affect of newer and more progressive policies...Basic Training used to be like but now its more like and BOTH males and females tend to whenever they have to do PT.

[candyman]

fair enough.

a little off topic but,

i do find humor in soldiers that claim to be 'defending our freedom', while the goverment that employs them are the only ones trying to take my freedoms away. maybe you're looking at the wrong enemy?

just a thought.

Keep your enemies close and your friends closer...

Defending freedom don't really have a direct link to our freedoms either. Our lost brothers fought for our ability to go after those freedoms. What we do after the battles is what dictates our freedoms and such. After we kicked the British out it could have gone alot of different ways as far as how people made decisions.

[prick]

Instead of DADT, I think it should just be DMDC - Doesn't Matter, Don't Care.

Amen, who cares who I am fucking? It doesnt mater and its no ones buisness. I feel no need to let the world know Im fucking my girlfriend. It has nothing to do with a military action. Or what goes on in a work place. Or what is going on in society as a whole. If your gay and serving our country then god bless but they are two seperate things.

[Epic_Fail_Guy]

fair enough.

a little off topic but,

i do find humor in soldiers that claim to be 'defending our freedom', while the goverment that employs them are the only ones trying to take my freedoms away. maybe you're looking at the wrong enemy?

just a thought.

Well every part of the government has a specific focus, ours is defence for our freedoms from other countries. Trust me I think in today's military, if they ever did try to impliment martial law.. the AWOLs would skyrocket at an unbeleivably high number. But that's just my opinion/prediction, can't really say for sure.

[Slogo]

I hear quite often that our freedom is being defended. From who? There are very few times we have been seriously at risk of being invaded and our government from being overthrown. While I respect those who are/have serving/served we aren't ever under a real threat. I can't think of any country that would imagine they could defeat us (with the possible exception of Kim who by this point just believes his own bullshit). The only country that can defeat America is America.

[phee]

I hear quite often that our freedom is being defended. From who? There are very few times we have been seriously at risk of being invaded and our government from being overthrown. While I respect those who are/have serving/served we aren't ever under a real threat. I can't think of any country that would imagine they could defeat us (with the possible exception of Kim who by this point just believes his own bullshit). The only country that can defeat America is America.

And that... is what seems to be happening.

[n0Mad]

And that... is what seems to be happening.

X10²³

[Hellion]

fair enough.

a little off topic but,

i do find humor in soldiers that claim to be 'defending our freedom', while the goverment that employs them are the only ones trying to take my freedoms away. maybe you're looking at the wrong enemy?

just a thought.

Well said!! its our POS corrupted lawmakers,and fascist CEO's who abuse technology(wiretapping,RFID chip implantsPOS dishonest bankers,etc),and our government likes to copy cat other countries government ideas and implant them here,ahh yes more of our rights taken away,seems the government fears the taxpayers more than the terrorists.

Yes I have friends and relatives in the military and I have great respect for what they are doing,I just hope they come home safe.

[Soulrev]

i have yet to hear ONE.....ONE good reason from a soldier why they need DADT. not one. every conversation i have with a 'soldier' is countered by SHUT THE FUCK UP. never by a *reasonable* argument.

Yeah, well, one person's reasonable argument may be another person's unreasonable argument.

This whole topic is full of FAIL. First of all, I have a couple of ideas of what's going on here. As someone already mentioned, DADT is indeed pointless, anyways. The Uniform Code of Military Justice already covers a majority of this in the first place. As far as whoever said "dirt bags" using it to get out of the Military? Well, that's not so true, because, that card has been played for years, and hasn't really worked at all for a long time now. Your best bet to get out of the Military quickly (if that's your goal) these days, and most people take this door, is drug use. Much faster and it's an easier way believe it or not.

And I believe, at least in the Army, the overall thought on this subject is "Uhh, who gives a fuck?" .. Well, let's ask that. Who does give a fuck? Well, all the redneck enlistees are going to care, that's a given, you can't avoid that. But, those "rednecks" are, I have to say it, usually, very good soldiers. But other than that, the general opinion is, nobody cares. I personally believe the hype is just another sway move by the media and the government to turn OUR eyes from what's really going on in this country, and sit here, and argue about stupid shit that doesn't even fucking matter..

There, there's a reasonable argument from a real soldier.

Also, someone mentioned something about high horses and shit.. And backed it with saying something about paying tax dollars and how "my tax dollars pay your check" well, to that comment, I must say that is fucked up. Anyone here compares their fucking DOLLAR to my life or my wife's life or any life of one who wears a uniform and gets paid ***SHIT MONEY*** To sleep in a tin shack in Iraq and get bombarded by random sky turds from dickheads who can't aim mortars.. Well.. All I have to say is, any jagoff can get a job and pay taxes. How many of them are willing to DIE just because they believe in something, and want to provide their family and friends with a country worth living in? Please don't talk about high horses and then compare lives to money. That's just fucked up, I'm sorry.