German multi-cultural society has failed

[Scar My Machine]

Merkel says German multi-cultural society has failed..........

BERLIN (AFP) – Germany's attempt to create a multi-cultural society has failed completely, Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend, calling on the country's immigrants to learn German and adopt Christian values.

Merkel weighed in for the first time in a blistering debate sparked by a central bank board member saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants.

News Link.

People are failing to adopt Christian values? Is time to lend you some support Chancellor?

*that last part was a joke people.*

[taysteewonderbunny]

I am confused and disturbed by this. Will one of our German members report? How strong are these sentiments? About what percentage of the population holds them? What is your stance?

My immediate response is twofold, and I may be wrong on both counts:

1. I think it important that immigrants to a country adapt to that country--that they learn the official language (they needn't speak it exclusively), that their children attend school, that they try to meet the needs of the society in whose lands they have chosen also to call home. This is bloody ironic, I know, coming from a European descended American who knows little to nothing of the aboriginal peoples her recent ancestors displaced.

2. Still, yet, in defense (and STRONG defense) of the Muslims, they should NOT have to forfeit identity of their heritage, nor their religion, in order to live peaceably in Germany.

Muslims may change Germany significantly. Wherever there is a confluence of people, the culture shifts. It is the way of the world. It's scary, perhaps, but needn't be responded to with intolerance.

[Destroit]

Not sure about the extent of it, but I do know that in all the German classes I took (which had mostly professors actually auf Deutschland), they spoke of the fact that there was a big influx of Turkish and Muslim folks to the point where many Germans were getting fed up with it. Something that we as Americans can relate to that does not happen to be a huge issue here in Detroit due to our location, but many citizens along the Mexican border have been fed up for years with the inpour of immigration and the whole "DEY TUK ERR JEORBS" sentiment (rofl to those who watch South Park, for those who don't it roughly translates into "They took our jobs").

Not sure about the extent of it, but I do know that in all the German classes I took (which had mostly professors actually auf Deutschland), they spoke of the fact that there was a big influx of Turkish and Muslim folks to the point where many Germans were getting fed up with it. Something that we as Americans can relate to that does not happen to be a huge issue here in Detroit due to our location, but many citizens along the Mexican border have been fed up for years with the inpour of immigration and the whole "DEY TUK ERR JEORBS" sentiment (rofl to those who watch South Park, for those who don't it roughly translates into "They took our jobs").

[Scar My Machine]

I am confused and disturbed by this. Will one of our German members report? How strong are these sentiments? About what percentage of the population holds them? What is your stance?

My immediate response is twofold, and I may be wrong on both counts:

1. I think it important that immigrants to a country adapt to that country--that they learn the official language (they needn't speak it exclusively), that their children attend school, that they try to meet the needs of the society in whose lands they have chosen also to call home. This is bloody ironic, I know, coming from a European descended American who knows little to nothing of the aboriginal peoples her recent ancestors displaced.

2. Still, yet, in defense (and STRONG defense) of the Muslims, they should NOT have to forfeit identity of their heritage, nor their religion, in order to live peaceably in Germany.

Muslims may change Germany significantly. Wherever there is a confluence of people, the culture shifts. It is the way of the world. It's scary, perhaps, but needn't be responded to with intolerance.

I agree with you that this is disturbing. The remarks made by the Chancellor eerily echo the past (IMO) and lead me to think the Some (well, at least one) German leader has not learned from WWII.

History showed us that Germany didn't learn anything from WWI and thus we ended up dealing with war again after 20 years of peace. Now we have a unified Germany and as I have heard from a few native Germans over the last few years that unifying Germany was not an ideal thing in their opinions. They feared how something like this might come up again and it looks like they are right. At least, so far anyway.

Such a shame.

[zarathustra]

I agree with you that this is disturbing. The remarks made by the Chancellor eerily echo the past (IMO) and lead me to think the Some (well, at least one) German leader has not learned from WWII.

History showed us that Germany didn't learn anything from WWI and thus we ended up dealing with war again after 20 years of peace. Now we have a unified Germany and as I have heard from a few native Germans over the last few years that unifying Germany was not an ideal thing in their opinions. They feared how something like this might come up again and it looks like they are right. At least, so far anyway.

Such a shame.

Well - there is one question to add the statement of merkel does bring up - and - in my opinion this is the key to the problem: is Germany a country having immigration?.. Many germans do think: nope - it isn´t. What in fact is wrong...

But the the discourse about immigration is rather new to Germany - it was mentioned above that there are for example turkish people living in Germany - many of them where invited during the "wirtschaftswunder" in the 60/70ies - and not understood as immigrants to be integrated but as guests who come to work a few years and return.

So - when they were invited to come to Germany nothing was prepared for a longer stay than a few years - neither an immigration process nor the public perception of integrating those people - also those who came to work did not expect to stay forever - so they did not force integration by themselfs - for example by learning german, spending time off with german collegues a.s.o... because it was not necessary for a limited stay..

So - right now on the one hand there is no framework set up to handle immigration (like in US or Canada) - which would be very helpful for german culture as well as economy - on the other hand germans have to be aware of taking advantage of immigration, as the immigration was negotiated in the past - these two very important points are to be tackled asap...

I am far from beeing an advocate for merkel - but there is one more thing to add to get a differentiated picture of what is understood with "multi-cultural" in germany: in the 70/80 there was a first discussion about how the different influences people immigrating to germany bring with them are making germany manifold(?) - but there was no strategy to integrate people - but only the step ahead: people said: look they are different - it is nice to have different people around. What is missing there is of course: how can we build one society out of those different groups of people... what wasn ´t discussed to the end with this approach of "multi-culture" that was brought up in the 80ies... therefore this picture of having different cultures as separeted islands building one country has failed - that is my understanding of this headerline

Sorry for my bad englisch

Also sprach Zarathustra

[taysteewonderbunny]

Well - there is one question to add the statement of merkel does bring up - and - in my opinion this is the key to the problem: is Germany a country having immigration?.. Many germans do think: nope - it isn´t. What in fact is wrong...

But the the discourse about immigration is rather new to Germany - it was mentioned above that there are for example turkish people living in Germany - many of them where invited during the "wirtschaftswunder" in the 60/70ies - and not understood as immigrants to be integrated but as guests who come to work a few years and return.

So - when they were invited to come to Germany nothing was prepared for a longer stay than a few years - neither an immigration process nor the public perception of integrating those people - also those who came to work did not expect to stay forever - so they did not force integration by themselfs - for example by learning german, spending time off with german collegues a.s.o... because it was not necessary for a limited stay..

So - right now on the one hand there is no framework set up to handle immigration (like in US or Canada) - which would be very helpful for german culture as well as economy - on the other hand germans have to be aware of taking advantage of immigration, as the immigration was negotiated in the past - these two very important points are to be tackled asap...

I am far from beeing an advocate for merkel - but there is one more thing to add to get a differentiated picture of what is understood with "multi-cultural" in germany: in the 70/80 there was a first discussion about how the different influences people immigrating to germany bring with them are making germany manifold(?) - but there was no strategy to integrate people - but only the step ahead: people said: look they are different - it is nice to have different people around. What is missing there is of course: how can we build one society out of those different groups of people... what wasn ´t discussed to the end with this approach of "multi-culture" that was brought up in the 80ies... therefore this picture of having different cultures as separeted islands building one country has failed - that is my understanding of this headerline

Sorry for my bad englisch

Also sprach Zarathustra

Thank you for this perspective. The background on the non-immigrant status is very helpful in understanding what is going on. We have many of the same issues in this country with migrant workers. It is a quandary. In your case, how are these Turks to feel German if they haven't German citizenship? They may very well question the validity of making the cultural investment. Likewise here in the United States, why should the migrant workers adapt to the U.S. if after the work is done, their invitation is expired?